New concrete subfloor
Last Post 24 Aug 2009 07:15 AM by BellFlooringSciences. 7 Replies.
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ajanne999User is Offline
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23 Aug 2009 03:50 PM
We are finally getting a concrete subfloor installed in our 1911 house--previously rubble. The concrete contractor doing the work says it only need a couple of weeks, if that, for the concrete to cure before putting down tiles. The tiles are Tarkett (Azroc) composite vinyl tiles. The Tarkett website says at least 90 days for new concrete sub-floors. We're having it done in 2 weeks in Toronto (pretty hot, sometimes pretty humid weather). Anybody know who is right? Thanks.
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23 Aug 2009 04:22 PM
PLEASE! Go with the manufacturers recommendations of 90 days!
SummersUser is Offline
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23 Aug 2009 06:30 PM
What is right[correct/can be done] may not be as important as what you HOPE to get in the way of a Warranty from Tarkett? If they are saying to wait 90 days, that tells me, they want the substrate to dry out to avoid adhesion problems with their product. Several variables could come into play and offer a fast track for you, but your warranty would probabaly be out the window!! You need to decide?
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BellFlooringSciencesUser is Offline
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23 Aug 2009 07:17 PM
Concrete takes 28 days to cure before it begins to dry. It can take months to more than a year for a concrete slab to dry to a point at which you can install moisture sensitive flooring. The first requirement is for there to be an effective vapor retarder (not construction plastic) below the concrete slab then drying will depend on temperature, relative humidity, and air velocity above the slab. The concrete slab should be tested for moisture and alkalinity before the installation of any moisture sensitive floor covering.

For more information on concrete slab moisture and alkalinity issues as they relate to floor coverings and coatings, visit www.bellflooringsciences.com/moisture-alkali/
Bell Flooring Sciences Group · www.BellSciences.com<br>Floor Coverings, Coatings, & Concrete Consultants<br>Failure/Forensics Analysis · Testing · Performance Evaluation <br>
Sip Supply IncUser is Offline
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24 Aug 2009 04:43 AM
Posted By ajanne999 on 08/23/2009 3:50 PM
We are finally getting a concrete subfloor installed in our 1911 house--previously rubble. The concrete contractor doing the work says it only need a couple of weeks, if that, for the concrete to cure before putting down tiles. The tiles are Tarkett (Azroc) composite vinyl tiles. The Tarkett website says at least 90 days for new concrete sub-floors. We're having it done in 2 weeks in Toronto (pretty hot, sometimes pretty humid weather). Anybody know who is right? Thanks.
Your concrete contractor is wrong! lay a sheet of visqueen over a portion of the slab and check to see how much moisture has accumulated in a couple of days.
Tarkett is taking a precautious 90 days, their is no magic number of days , the slab should be checked for moisture with a meter even after 90 days. The tile will most certainly lift after 2 weeks.

if it was ceramic tile you could go over it immediately.

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24 Aug 2009 06:54 AM
ajanne999, In the interest of affording you a "Real Answer" to your "Anybody know who is right?" question; points for you to consider: (1)There are three test methods for concrete slabs that MAY be accepted by Tarkett. ASTM F-1869, F-2170 and F-2420, none of which involve use of a surface moisture meter or a piece of plastic taped to a floor! (2)An "Effective Vapor Retarder" doesn't sound feasable for a slab poured in 1911! (3)Most Flooring manufacturers will approve of the F-2170 test done by a certified test provider, demonstrating an internal humidity of 75% or less. (4)Concrete in general is a very complex, thermodynamically unstable material, especially, when involving these types of issues. Your slab is subject to a host of events and environments that it has been subjected to since 1911. Confirm with Tarkett what test regimen they Will accept and Warrant, get that statement in writing from the COMPANY and Cross Your Fingers! So, your answer is somewhere between No & Maybe!
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24 Aug 2009 07:07 AM
Posted By Sip Supply Inc on 08/24/2009 4:43 AM
Your concrete contractor is wrong! lay a sheet of visqueen over a portion of the slab and check to see how much moisture has accumulated in a couple of days.
Tarkett is taking a precautious 90 days, their is no magic number of days , the slab should be checked for moisture with a meter even after 90 days. The tile will most certainly lift after 2 weeks.

if it was ceramic tile you could go over it immediately.



The test method involving taping down a plastic sheet is not a quantitative test and is not considered an acceptable test method by any major flooring manufacturer. A surface moisture meter does not give any indication of free moisture in the concrete slab and are only used for comparative relative readings and they do not to give any sort of accurate moisture reading. Both of these methods can provide you false negatives resulting in a failed flooring system.

There is only one test method that is recognized as being accurate by basically every major resilient flooring manufacturer which is 
ASTM F2170-02 Test Method for Determining Relative Humidity in Concrete Floor Slabs Using In-Situ Probes.

The test method
ASTM F1869-04 Standard Test Method for Measuring Moisture Vapor Emission Rate of Concrete Subfloor Using Anhydrous Calcium Chloride has been found to not always be accurate and is becoming disallowed by many manufactures due this type of test many times producing inaccurate data.

The test method
ASTM F2420-05 Standard Test Method for Determining Relative Humidity on the Surface of Concrete Floor Slabs Using Relative Humidity Probe Measurement and Insulated Hood is a good test but it's mostly used in forensic work and not considered as accurate as ASTM F2170 so it's not specified by many flooring manufactures.



Bell Flooring Sciences Group · www.BellSciences.com<br>Floor Coverings, Coatings, & Concrete Consultants<br>Failure/Forensics Analysis · Testing · Performance Evaluation <br>
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24 Aug 2009 07:15 AM
Posted By Summers on 08/24/2009 6:54 AM
ajanne999, In the interest of affording you a "Real Answer" to your "Anybody know who is right?" question; points for you to consider: (1)There are three test methods for concrete slabs that MAY be accepted by Tarkett. ASTM F-1869, F-2170 and F-2420, none of which involve use of a surface moisture meter or a piece of plastic taped to a floor! (2)An "Effective Vapor Retarder" doesn't sound feasable for a slab poured in 1911! (3)Most Flooring manufacturers will approve of the F-2170 test done by a certified test provider, demonstrating an internal humidity of 75% or less. (4)Concrete in general is a very complex, thermodynamically unstable material, especially, when involving these types of issues. Your slab is subject to a host of events and environments that it has been subjected to since 1911. Confirm with Tarkett what test regimen they Will accept and Warrant, get that statement in writing from the COMPANY and Cross Your Fingers! So, your answer is somewhere between No & Maybe!

Clarification:

Based on the original post, the house was built in 1911 but a NEW subfloor is being installed so it is imperative that an "effective vapor retarder" be installed in accordance to ASTM, ACI, or the Canadian equivalent standards.

Bell Flooring Sciences Group · www.BellSciences.com<br>Floor Coverings, Coatings, & Concrete Consultants<br>Failure/Forensics Analysis · Testing · Performance Evaluation <br>
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