Structural Concrete Insulated Panel SCIP
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11 Jun 2010 12:49 PM

Structural Concrete Insulated Panel SCIP

 Friday, June 11, 2010

A repost on a broader forum   

I am building a SCIP System home in Denver I break ground next week 6 -14 -10 and am trying to find history of the system.

I have found data suggesting it was first used in the 40s for fences. In the late 50s or early 60 it was used to build homes.

I am really looking for information from any time period and have asked a number of the current manufacturers for information as well.
Thank you to the responses on the last request but I am only focusing on SCIP system . I think SIP and ICF systems interesting but not as cost efective on the projects I have bid so far.

As this house will be part of a home tour and I am just the curious type I really want to know more about SCIPS history.

Thank everyone Rich  



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21 Jun 2010 07:31 PM
Let us know how it goes. I have seen that system used in Argentina, but not here. I question the wall strength including lintels.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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02 Jul 2010 11:17 AM
Which company and SCIP do you plan to use?  Can you give us a website so we can check it out?  The only SCIP that I have used is InSteel (I believe it is now called Tridipanel).  We used rebar and shotcrete instead of precast lintels above openings.  I remember the InSteel system being labor intensive and slower than Aerated Autoclaved Concrete (AAC).


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02 Jul 2010 08:52 PM
Several of us have been involved with SCIPs for some time.  Most projects have been in Texas.  One project was a home built in Crystal Beach which survived Hurricane Ike with very little damage when most home around it were done.
We would be happy to share any and all information about the panels.
You can email me at [email protected]
D Stovall


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03 Jul 2010 04:24 PM
I've seen lots of SCIP (shotcrete/mesh/foam) houses in Panama - they call it M2. Seems to work fine, although the local workers usually aren't familiar with it, so the costs ends up the same as block.





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20 Dec 2011 01:22 PM
At the same cost to block you are light years ahead with the insulation, Hurricane , and earth quake protection.


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20 Dec 2011 01:45 PM
SCIP Panels,

I just sent you a private message.  Click on "Private Messaging" at the top of the forum.  Reply to my e-mail address:

Alton at Auburn dot Edu    Of course, use the correct e-mail format by substituting @ and period.  I use this on the forum so bots can not collect my e-mail address and flood me with SPAM.


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20 Dec 2011 04:06 PM

I'd like to see more info and examples of SCIP projects.

A related question - if one bevels (less than roof slope) and seals the foam edges properly, it is possible to leave a concrete roof exposed? Sure, there may be cracks, but the idea is that the foam is the water proof layer and the concrete is the sun proofing layer. Or perhaps with the help of building wrap, glue and a panel that doesn't have steel on the weather side. Stucco over foam walls work, why not roofs?


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20 Dec 2011 04:52 PM
Jonr,

I guess you are familiar with roofs made with this system.  It is known as Wind Resistant Concrete System (WRCS):
http://www.wrcscorp.com/contact.htm

Is there anyone on this forum that can share their experience with the WRCS system?


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20 Dec 2011 05:57 PM
Thanks for the link. It's hard to tell for sure, but I think they are covering theirs with tile. But that helped me find this thread: http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/51860/afv/topic/Default.aspx


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20 Dec 2011 06:15 PM
Wouldn't you consider those SCIP and WRCS similar too and in the same category as BuildDeck, Insul-Deck and LiteDeck? Which is also and ICF?


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20 Dec 2011 09:14 PM
The SCIPs and WRCS that I am familiar with are different from ICF EPS/steel decks.  SCIPs and WRCS have many thermal paths (galvanized wire) that extend beyond the foam into the two concrete wythes.  Although I have used Insteel SCIPs, I think the energy savings would be even greater if another layer of foam was added to the exterior before the stucco.


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22 Dec 2011 10:16 AM
More foam is always good, but those wires going through the foam don't have a significant thermal effect.


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22 Dec 2011 12:20 PM
The Insteel (now called Tridipanel) system that I used also resulted in removing some EPS foam every place that required rebar.  This reduced the whole wall R-Value.  The foam was melted with a torch so that shotcrete could fully cover the rebar.  A simple solution to this problem that results in reduced R-value is to add foam to the exterior before stucco or use a modified panel that allows space behind the wire mesh for complete concrete coverage of the rebar.  Three quarters of an inch space between the mesh and EPS foam is not enough for good embedding of the rebar.


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22 Dec 2011 08:03 PM
Posted By jonr on 20 Dec 2011 04:06 PM

I'd like to see more info and examples of SCIP projects.

A related question - if one bevels (less than roof slope) and seals the foam edges properly, it is possible to leave a concrete roof exposed? Sure, there may be cracks, but the idea is that the foam is the water proof layer and the concrete is the sun proofing layer. Or perhaps with the help of building wrap, glue and a panel that doesn't have steel on the weather side. Stucco over foam walls work, why not roofs?


Here are some pictures of the roof/sun deck


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22 Dec 2011 08:08 PM



Zero side setback
First level is the garage and mechanical room    

 Second and third are living areas

The roof (4th level) is a sun deck

Wall panels are 9” thick 4’X10,

 Foam / shot crete floors are 12” 4’ X 25’

Foam and shot crete for roof deck is 18” 4’ X 25’



This is far from a controlled test as workers are in ad out all day; some even have a hard time closing the doors all the way.

With lows in the teens, 20s and 30s I turned the heat off last Thursday.

 Until tomorrow I had blue masking tape covering the door bottoms to allow air hoses and electric cords to pass without being damaged.

The interior temperature was in the high 60s when I turned the heat off. It has dropped to 60 and been in the low 70s in the shade and 80s where the sun hits the shot crete walls and floor over the past four days.

 

I only can imagine how a SCIP house could perform if the lot really allowed designing for passive solar?



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26 Dec 2011 03:30 PM


I broke ground on my SCIP home in Panama City Fl in July.  Walls are going up now.  It's all in my blog at:

http://waterfrontbuildinginpanamacity.blogspot.com




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26 Dec 2011 08:43 PM
Thanks for the nice blog. I look forward to hearing more.


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08 Jan 2012 01:36 PM
This is a question for "SCIP Panel"

I'm building a SCIP home in P.C. Florida.  Can you tell me what your maximum unsupported span was for floor and roof panels?


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08 Jan 2012 03:13 PM
Posted By stovalldb on 02 Jul 2010 08:52 PM
Several of us have been involved with SCIPs for some time.  Most projects have been in Texas.  One project was a home built in Crystal Beach which survived Hurricane Ike with very little damage when most home around it were done.
We would be happy to share any and all information about the panels.
You can email me at [email protected]
D Stovall
D Stovall and SCIP Panel,

Which SCIP system did you use?  Was it Tridipanel?



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08 Jan 2012 07:48 PM

I had a press made and made my own panels.

I made panels up to 30' long.

Tri-d panel machine 1.2 million,

Met rock 35k to 70K I have been told by third parties.

 My press 3K slower but gets the job done. When I build long panels again I will have another press made to work in tandem.

I also may still have a line on 100 5” X 4’X 8’ panels left over or not used for a fair price.

  


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08 Jan 2012 08:00 PM
My roof / sun deck and floors span 25' but were rated to 30'.
I had a barn/ warehouse designed with 5/12 pitch roof 70' wide clear span, meeting Colorado mountain 110 pounds snow loads.


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08 Jan 2012 10:37 PM


That's good info. My structural engineer blanched at panel spans greater than 12'.

So here's another question. From the pictures this is a multistory structure as is mine. How did you make the moment connections for the floor panels to the vertical walls? My architect has them connecting to only the inner Wythe of the vertical wall panels.


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09 Jan 2012 09:25 AM
Very interesting about the SCIP making press - would like to hear more about it. How is the engineering done for the strength? Wire gauge, number of wires, etc?


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09 Jan 2012 03:07 PM
Posted By jrobicheaux on 08 Jan 2012 10:37 PM


That's good info. My structural engineer blanched at panel spans greater than 12'.

So here's another question. From the pictures this is a multistory structure as is mine. How did you make the moment connections for the floor panels to the vertical walls? My architect has them connecting to only the inner Wythe of the vertical wall panels.

That is a normal reaction for most engineers when confronted with a system that is beyond what they know and do every day.  I am afraid that a lot of engineers have not done many calculations with formulas since they left school.  Basically, when forced to do so, the client gets charged for their learning time.  My clients have been presented with large fees because we asked the structural engineer to learn a new system.  I think it is best for the client to hire an engineer already familiar with the new system.  Money can be saved by not paying for the learning curve.  A lack of familiarity with a system can lead to overengineering which can cause the project to cost too much.

Hang in there and keep posting on your blog.  I enjoy following it.


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09 Jan 2012 06:53 PM
Posted By Alton on 09 Jan 2012 03:07 PM

That is a normal reaction for most engineers when confronted with a system that is beyond what they know and do every day.  I am afraid that a lot of engineers have not done many calculations with formulas since they left school.  Basically, when forced to do so, the client gets charged for their learning time.  My clients have been presented with large fees because we asked the structural engineer to learn a new system.  I think it is best for the client to hire an engineer already familiar with the new system.  Money can be saved by not paying for the learning curve.  A lack of familiarity with a system can lead to overengineering which can cause the project to cost too much.

Hang in there and keep posting on your blog.  I enjoy following it.

This is VERY true. For instance, if one takes a modest 3,000 sq.ft. 2-story home out of ICF and takes it to an engineer who is NOT familiar with ICF, the project can be overpriced and way over budget because the engineer doesn't know how to work with ICF. So the home is over-engineered and the costs are sent down to the builder who then charges more to build the home, it's a snowball effect.

Unless EVERYONE involved (architect, builder, GC, engineer) knows how to deal with ICF or SCIP, they will make YOU pay for their learning curve. That can be easily over $50k for a modest home.

If anyone wants to go down the road of non-standard construction (SIP, ICF, SCIP, etc), you MUST have everyone involved on the same page and they MUST be schooled in that method. Any break in the chain will make for problems and higher costs. The horror stories you hear usually can be traced back to either the architect, GC, ICF installer, who did NOT know how to work with the product and they learned on the job with the unfortunate persons home.






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09 Jan 2012 07:00 PM
what are the drawbacks of this building system? I've always been intrigued w/ its potential benefits but wonder why it hasn't spread more? I don't want to be a guinea pig customer here in MN! LOL

Is there any specialization/learning needed by the shotcrete crew? I like that the metrock panels have screed wires built in to get a good consistent depth of concrete skins for flat walls. How tough is that w/out the screed wires?

I'd also think pool builders would be using these systems for insulated pools.


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09 Jan 2012 07:06 PM
I really like the SCIP roof concept over the SIP roof concept on an ICF home. SIP roofs are great but for my climate which experiences 30-40 degree temperature swings in less than 24 hours, I am concerned about the "popping" that I keep hearing with SIP roofs. Also, I still have yet to find a "fix" to the issue of the thermal bridge at every spline that is inherent with SIP roofs. This will eventually turn into a moisture/rot problem that might take 10+ years to show its ugly face but it is a bad spot for SIP roofs. The foam is always lacking where the panels meet and this where the moisture will form on a SIP roof.

With a SCIP roof it is fireproof (unlike SIP) and it is MUCH, MUCH stronger in high winds and earthquake resistant. This ties the ENTIRE concrete wall and roof structure as "one" and makes for a much stronger home.

Hey Alton, can you list some of the SCIP roof manufacturers in the western U.S.?




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09 Jan 2012 07:14 PM
Posted By slenzen on 09 Jan 2012 07:00 PM
what are the drawbacks of this building system? I've always been intrigued w/ its potential benefits but wonder why it hasn't spread more? I don't want to be a guinea pig customer here in MN! LOL

Is there any specialization/learning needed by the shotcrete crew? I like that the metrock panels have screed wires built in to get a good consistent depth of concrete skins for flat walls. How tough is that w/out the screed wires?

I'd also think pool builders would be using these systems for insulated pools.

Drawback? I think it would be cost and the lack of expertise in the building field. I would NEVER allow a builder to utilize a building method unless they have AT LEAST 10+ builds under their belt using that method. Ideally, at least 20 builds.



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09 Jan 2012 08:26 PM
Posted By slenzen on 09 Jan 2012 07:00 PM
what are the drawbacks of this building system? I've always been intrigued w/ its potential benefits but wonder why it hasn't spread more? I don't want to be a guinea pig customer here in MN! LOL

Is there any specialization/learning needed by the shotcrete crew? I like that the metrock panels have screed wires built in to get a good consistent depth of concrete skins for flat walls. How tough is that w/out the screed wires?

I'd also think pool builders would be using these systems for insulated pools.
I think there are two approaches that can be used successfully with new alternative construction:  Either have a qualified crew come in and do a turnkey job or have a skilled supervisor to supervise a local crew as they learn.  Both approaches have worked well for me.  I have also been the person that supervised and trained the crew on site for various technologies since I specialize in alternative design and construction.  I do not think anyone should be afraid of new technology as long as skill can be brought to the job site.

The two SCIP panels that I know about are Hadrian Tridipanel (formerly Insteel which I have installed) and Met-Rock Envirolast Structures, LLC.  I believe Tridipanel is located in Vista, CA and I think manufactured in Mexico.  I believe panels are shipped to various states and other countries.  When I used Insteel it was manufactured in Eastern Georgia.

Envirolast Structures of Columbia, SC assembles and installs SCIPs under license from Met-Rock, LLC of Anniston, AL.   The equipment was designed and patented by Jim Farrell of Blastcrete Equipment of Anniston, AL.  The panels are made with a portable jig on the construction site, installed and then shotcreted.  This company operates in seven Southeastern states. 

When I used Insteel, it did not have a screed.  Troweling is the way we removed excess shotcrete and smoothed the walls.  Since the Met-Rock panels have screeds, the excess shotcrete can be quickly removed by screeding.  Less troweling that way.  We used three coats of real stucco to cover the Insteel shotcreted panels with a sand finish.  I understand that Met-Rock panels can be covered with a 3/16" finish inside and out.

I do not think that shotcreting panels is for the DIY crowd.  The entry barrier fee is too great and it does require at least one skilled person to do the shotcreting.  Few builders are interested in a technology as different as this is.  Unless potential homeowners insist, they will not get a shotcrete home.  Since some companies are now doing turnkey shell erections, it is now more likely that builders will be more interested in using it.  With a turnkey quote, the builder can treat it just like dealing with any other sub-contractor as opposed to training a crew to do the work.



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09 Jan 2012 09:01 PM
Pool builders are a likely source of expert shotcrete subcontractors. In some areas of central america, 1/2 of the new homes are using SCIPs in various forms. Walls only, roof and walls, post and beam with curtain wall SCIP infill, etc. If they can do it, builders in 1st world countries can.






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09 Jan 2012 09:17 PM

Pool builders that have the shotcrete equipment should be able learn how to install shotcrete panels quickly.  From the engineering plans, they can see how the footer, floor and roof slabs are attached to the shotcrete panels and how to reinforce around openings.  A pool crew should already know how to trowel concrete so getting a smooth wall should not be that difficult.



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09 Jan 2012 09:50 PM
Posted By Lbear on 09 Jan 2012 07:14 PM
Posted By slenzen on 09 Jan 2012 07:00 PM
what are the drawbacks of this building system? I've always been intrigued w/ its potential benefits but wonder why it hasn't spread more? I don't want to be a guinea pig customer here in MN! LOL

Is there any specialization/learning needed by the shotcrete crew? I like that the metrock panels have screed wires built in to get a good consistent depth of concrete skins for flat walls. How tough is that w/out the screed wires?

I'd also think pool builders would be using these systems for insulated pools.

Drawback? I think it would be cost and the lack of expertise in the building field. I would NEVER allow a builder to utilize a building method unless they have AT LEAST 10+ builds under their belt using that method. Ideally, at least 20 builds.



How do they get 10+ builds?


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09 Jan 2012 10:57 PM

 A few big drawbacks

1 The lack of experienced builders and suppliers working with SCIP.

 

2 Additives and supplies not readily available in your town (Denver or your town)

 

3   Engineers with experience that know what they are dealing with.

I am working with the engineer who was involved with developing the  SCIP system with met rock in the early 90s.

 

4 The correct application methods and additives cutting costs and waste.

 

I think Met Rock has moved away from the screed at least when I talked to them two years ago that was being discussed.

 

A skilled craftsman can get consistent depths its done all the time.

Some obvious choices are Pools, Shotcrete, Stucco contractors.

Tridpanel has a number of suppliers Rod Hadrian, Vista  and Jim Bolton,  Reno are two that I have talked to.

I am told as  many as six are selling or building panels in Southern Ca.
One in Texas and one in Denver that I have talked to. 

The one in Denver builds a really clean panel mostly R40 I think.

 

Met Rock  is a solid panel as well.

 

 

Either have a qualified crew come in and do a turnkey job or have a skilled supervisor to supervise a local crew as they learn.

 

Alton Following a Turn Key operation was my intention. Long story, Cold Turkey was not my original plan, but they were not able to deliverer the panels.  

 

.  I understand that Met-Rock panels can be covered with a 3/16" finish inside and out.
Not sure about 3/16” as ½” between the wire mesh and the foam needs to be filled just to cover the wire mesh.

It takes 1” to get the strength as far as I know.



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09 Jan 2012 11:39 PM
Posted By SCIP Panel on 09 Jan 2012 10:57 PM

 A few big drawbacks


2 Additives and supplies not readily available in your town (Denver or your town)

 

3   Engineers with experience that know what they are dealing with.

I am working with the engineer who was involved with developing the  SCIP system with met rock in the early 90s.

 

I think Met Rock has moved away from the screed at least when I talked to them two years ago that was being discussed.

 

Either have a qualified crew come in and do a turnkey job or have a skilled supervisor to supervise a local crew as they learn.

 

Alton Following a Turn Key operation was my intention. Long story, Cold Turkey was not my original plan, but they were not able to deliverer the panels.  

 

.  I understand that Met-Rock panels can be covered with a 3/16" finish inside and out.
Not sure about 3/16” as ½” between the wire mesh and the foam needs to be filled just to cover the wire mesh.

It takes 1” to get the strength as far as I know.




I have been researching the Met-Rock panel system.  I have some clients who are interested and also doing due diligence.
So my comments and questions on this forum about Met-Rock and Insteel is my attempt to solicit more info about SCIPs and the respective companies.

I would have no objections to using Tridipanel except for the freight to my area.  If there is a factory near the Southeast for Tridipanel or any other SCIP company, then I would consider them also.

The shotcrete mix used by Met-Rock is readily available and is reasonably priced for the Southeast. (See QUIKRETE Shotcrete MS) I do not know about other areas.  However, I think it may be difficult to find the closely spaced galvanized wire mesh in America.  The last I heard the wire mesh is shipped from China.

Is the engineer that helped develop the Met-Rock system available to engineer plans?  Is he registered in Alabama?

According to Envirolast Structures, they are still using a built-in screed that stands up 1/2" beyond the wire mesh.

Was it Envirolast that was unable to deliver?

The 3/16" finish I was talking about is like a stucco that covers the 1" thick or thicker shotcrete.  The space between the wire mesh and EPS is 1/2" plus the 1/2" of the screed makes 1" thick as the nominal thickness.  Unless I am wrong, then the total thickness is one and 3/16".

Feel free to send your comments to my e-mail address if you feel they should not be posted here.


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09 Jan 2012 11:58 PM
Posted By SCIP Panel on 09 Jan 2012 10:57 PM

 

 

4 The correct application methods and additives cutting costs and waste.

 

I think Met Rock has moved away from the screed at least when I talked to them two years ago that was being discussed.

 

A skilled craftsman can get consistent depths its done all the time.

Some obvious choices are Pools, Shotcrete, Stucco contractors.

Tridpanel has a number of suppliers Rod Hadrian, Vista  and Jim Bolton,  Reno are two that I have talked to.

I am told as  many as six are selling or building panels in Southern Ca.
One in Texas and one in Denver that I have talked to. 

The one in Denver builds a really clean panel mostly R40 I think.

 

Met Rock  is a solid panel as well.

 


The biggest drawback I would see is the financial risk if the crew is inexperienced and begins the Shotcrete and ends up doing it all wrong (wrong mix, poor adhesion, cracking, etc). In the end you end up with a concrete shell that needs to be bulldozed.

With the interior finishing, what happens if they missed a plumbing or electrical line? Would you have to chisel the interior concrete wall open to run the line?

What advantages does this system have over ICF?



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10 Jan 2012 12:02 AM
I'm guessing two different crews. Experienced erection crew and then the shotcrete crew. But, If I were a pool builder or concrete contractor sitting on my butt for the next few years in this economy I might learn the erection part, maybe targeting fences and sound walls at first.

Interesting on metrock going away from the screed guides? It seemed to the untrained that it was a good feature. I guess an experienced crew can get a consistent flat wall without one?

Cost factors. Obviously depends on panel cost, shotcrete finishing cost, any other trade savings(insulation/sheetrock) framing vs panel erection cost vs more equivalent alternatives such as Sip or icf or double wall . I have no idea what larger scale shotcrete costs are (home vs. normal jobs such as a pool).

If one didn't mind a smooth concrete exterior finish for a modern look, could waterproof mix be used in the shotcrete coat troweled a bit smoother as a finish layer, saving on additional stucco finish process or any additional siding cost? (locale is MN-lots of freeze thaw)

Seems there are quite a few advantages. Monolithic strong structure with much less material than ICF. Should be easier erection w/ larger panels vs. forming with many more smalller eps blocks etc...

The rest of the trades, plumbing, electrical look fairly easy to adapt, spray painting lines on panels then torching back eps for additional space behind the metal mesh. Gotta be much easier running stuff behind mesh then running through sip chases or drilling holes through multiple studs? Would save the interior wall construction in ICF and sheetrock in framing. I'd also go with a smooth concrete wall finish on interior or would I need a finished plaster layer? EPS insulation in the right spot in middle between some two thermal mass layers. Monolithic should yield a very tight structure to maximize efficiency. Have these methods achieved any prescriptive building methods or are they one-off requiring more expensive engineering sign-offs?

Was also wondering about midfloor connections between panels, are the mid floor panels just ring tied to the inner wythe with a shotcrete coat making it plenty strong?





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10 Jan 2012 03:01 AM
Unless things have changed met rock sell equipment/ materials not panels.

I used the same basic design. For you south easterners I got my best deals on materials from your neck of the woods easily paying half what Denver prices were.

I am currently not looking to make more panels as I have too much going on so I too have been looking at panel options.

Only thing about Tridipanel is I think for the colder climates I want a higher R factor.

All the additives I wanted and used were from California and not available in CO.
Densafires (sp) and waterproofing additives are not on the shelf in CO.

The engineer is available; he is not on the internet no email, old schoowith Iphone. He did a building in SC or GA, not sure after he designs you may need a local engineer to sign off and do inspections.
He is working on a hospital design currently. The system has been designed to ten stories I believe.
I will give out his number but not post it. He had surgery two months ago so I do not want to get him overwhelmed.

Screeds – the Met-Rock guy in Colorado stopped using wire with screed.

Envirolast if that is the guy in Georgia currently building for someone on this forum I have only heard good things about him but it is all third party.

As far as the finish and mix
Getting the mix wrong could be a death blow.
Most of ours was redi mix. Then you run into needing short batches or loosing some as it is time consuming to shoot it.
It’s back to the additives; I am getting ready to try three different mixes on small structures. One of the additives I used to waterproof the sun deck. I want to test a claim from Japan that it also reduces conductivity of the concrete.

My client changed the master bath room and kitchen layout. The bath was no big deal as the ceiling below both baths was to be dropped. The kitchen changes caused some extra work and resulted having to channel the concrete to add outlets.

Pulling conduit and doing the plumbing is not bad but you need subs with the right / open mindset.

(Would you have to chisel the interior concrete wall open to run the line?) That and we were also able to drill between some outlets to avoid cutting.

(What advantages does this system have over ICF?) Energy wise look below.

Taken from Oak ridge National laboratories study.
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/thermal/index.html

Thermal Mass - Energy Savings Potential in Residential Buildings
CONCLUSIONS
Comparative analysis of sixteen different material configurations showed that the most effective wall assembly was the wall with thermal mass (concrete) applied in good contact with the interior of the building. Walls where the insulation material was concentrated on the interior side, performed much worse.
Wall configurations with the concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides of the wall performed slightly better, however, their performance was significantly worse than walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides.

One crew or two, a good framing crew would be perfect to stand and plum and line.

We still used sheet rock on interior partition walls.
If design needed a thermal mass interior wall then SCIP would be the answer.

I will go back to wood floors next time as well. The roof would still be SCIP roof for strength, fire and hurricanes. If not needed then trusses would be cheaper.
The walls can be finished smooth it takes more man power the smother you want it.
You can also use sanded paint for texture.

The monolithic system is incredibly tight and strong.
With blue tape for temporary door bottoms I was able to heat all three floors to the low 60s (lows 17-30 degrees) with one small $20.00 heater in the garage by leaving the door open for the heat to rise.

Mid floor connections is where I error with a little more rebar than less or none.
I have seen it done with floors stacked on walls or walls connected to the interior of the wall. Both have plusses and minuses so I would look at each situation before I decided. .
I am not an engineer but I would not be comfortable if my 25’ span floor and roof panels were just wired to the interior of the wall.
I have seen crush tests on beams made from the panels that are incredibly strong.



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10 Jan 2012 03:01 AM
Unless things have changed met rock sell equipment/ materials not panels.

I used the same basic design. For you south easterners I got my best deals on materials from your neck of the woods easily paying half what Denver prices were.

I am currently not looking to make more panels as I have too much going on so I too have been looking at panel options.

Only thing about Tridipanel is I think for the colder climates I want a higher R factor.

All the additives I wanted and used were from California and not available in CO.
Densafires (sp) and waterproofing additives are not on the shelf in CO.

The engineer is available; he is not on the internet no email, old schoowith Iphone. He did a building in SC or GA, not sure after he designs you may need a local engineer to sign off and do inspections.
He is working on a hospital design currently. The system has been designed to ten stories I believe.
I will give out his number but not post it. He had surgery two months ago so I do not want to get him overwhelmed.

Screeds – the Met-Rock guy in Colorado stopped using wire with screed.

Envirolast if that is the guy in Georgia currently building for someone on this forum I have only heard good things about him but it is all third party.

As far as the finish and mix
Getting the mix wrong could be a death blow.
Most of ours was redi mix. Then you run into needing short batches or loosing some as it is time consuming to shoot it.
It’s back to the additives; I am getting ready to try three different mixes on small structures. One of the additives I used to waterproof the sun deck. I want to test a claim from Japan that it also reduces conductivity of the concrete.

My client changed the master bath room and kitchen layout. The bath was no big deal as the ceiling below both baths was to be dropped. The kitchen changes caused some extra work and resulted having to channel the concrete to add outlets.

Pulling conduit and doing the plumbing is not bad but you need subs with the right / open mindset.

(Would you have to chisel the interior concrete wall open to run the line?) That and we were also able to drill between some outlets to avoid cutting.

(What advantages does this system have over ICF?) Energy wise look below.

Taken from Oak ridge National laboratories study.
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/thermal/index.html

Thermal Mass - Energy Savings Potential in Residential Buildings
CONCLUSIONS
Comparative analysis of sixteen different material configurations showed that the most effective wall assembly was the wall with thermal mass (concrete) applied in good contact with the interior of the building. Walls where the insulation material was concentrated on the interior side, performed much worse.
Wall configurations with the concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides of the wall performed slightly better, however, their performance was significantly worse than walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides.

One crew or two, a good framing crew would be perfect to stand and plum and line.

We still used sheet rock on interior partition walls.
If design needed a thermal mass interior wall then SCIP would be the answer.

I will go back to wood floors next time as well. The roof would still be SCIP roof for strength, fire and hurricanes. If not needed then trusses would be cheaper.
The walls can be finished smooth it takes more man power the smother you want it.
You can also use sanded paint for texture.

The monolithic system is incredibly tight and strong.
With blue tape for temporary door bottoms I was able to heat all three floors to the low 60s (lows 17-30 degrees) with one small $20.00 heater in the garage by leaving the door open for the heat to rise.

Mid floor connections is where I error with a little more rebar than less or none.
I have seen it done with floors stacked on walls or walls connected to the interior of the wall. Both have plusses and minuses so I would look at each situation before I decided. .
I am not an engineer but I would not be comfortable if my 25’ span floor and roof panels were just wired to the interior of the wall.
I have seen crush tests on beams made from the panels that are incredibly strong.



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10 Jan 2012 10:12 AM
Regarding getting SCIP experience, I suggest building a few stand alone privacy walls/fences with it first.

As discussed elsewhere, people are even leaving exposed concrete on SCIP roofs. Ie, you can have a complete house with no additional interior or exterior finishes (no metal roofing or shingles, siding, wallboard, etc). And nothing to get eaten by rot or termites.


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10 Jan 2012 03:46 PM
Posted By SCIP Panel on 10 Jan 2012 03:01 AM

As far as the finish and mix
Getting the mix wrong could be a death blow.


I liken it to painting an entire car. It takes a lot of experience and even artistic skill to lay the paint on right, make sure the mixture is good, and the right talent and skill to make it look good, all while making sure the prep was right so that the paint doesn't peel off or get fish eyes. Getting a Maaco paint job vs. a professional paint job is the end result and you will pay $$$ for the later.

How do banks even approach a loan with this type of building method? Most banks I know would NOT be willing to do a construction loan on such a build. Too risky for them.

How does one paint the interior walls? Can you use normal latex wall paint? How do you hang up kitchen cabinets? How do you run smoke detector lines in the ceiling?

While I agree this looks like a great building method as far as energy conservation and strength go. It is not for the faint of heart or those with limited resources $$$. I don't believe I would be out of line to say that those who utilize this method are wealthy individuals who don't mind the risk involved if things go bad. There is little to no support out there for this building methodology.

I wish it was more readily used and available in this country but it is brutal just finding a good ICF builder in some states, let alone SCIP, which is ever harder and more rare.




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10 Jan 2012 09:28 PM

As far as the finish and mix
Getting the mix wrong could be a death blow.

So may be an over statement unless you really screw up!

 

Banks are jumping on green I have never heard of one SCIP home not being finished or having to be torn down.

First ICF home I saw ended up getting torn down.

I have taken over wood framed homes that were close to falling down ( the roof was swaying back and forth  11/2” and the roofing was on), another  had to be taken down to the foundation and rebuilt .

 

Building is not for the faint of heart.

I remember stacking the structural pages of plans to a three story dentist complex. Sticking a thumb tack in the bearing points then checking if the holes ling up. Nope some interior piers missed by two feet. The building department missed it the architect missed it and be sure there would have been hell to deal with if I had missed it.

 

(There is little to no support out there for this building methodology )
Too true but it is changing with more SCIP builders who are willing to share and compare.

 

Any finish, including paints that will work with cement work.

The wiring for the smoke detectors is the same as for ceiling lights.

Actually if you use conduit instead of burying the wire in cement you have options.  

 

Standing wall panels is really easy and plumb and line is no harder than plumbing a foundation forms.

 Stacking levels and floors is where it gets complicated.

If you use wood trusses it simplifies the system.



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10 Jan 2012 09:43 PM
Lbear,

Since I have designed and built one-storey homes with SCIP and other systems, I guess I am more optimistic than you are about new technology.

SCIP Panel,

I basically understand how a SCIP second floor is attached to only the inner wythe of shotcrete because it is attached before shotcreting the walls.  Tell me how a wood truss floor would be attached only to the inner wythe.  Would you just bolt an angle or ledger to the inner wythe?  Would the bolts have to go all the way through the wall to engage the outer wythe?  I have not yet seen a detail on how this is done although I am sure it has been done many times.


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10 Jan 2012 11:55 PM
 
My second, third and fourth floors are stacked on top of the walls below.
 The house in Boulder, CO. being built right now has wood floors.
The ledger is spaced off the wall to allow shot crete to get behind it.
The ledger is also thru bolted to rebar on the outside of the wall.
I will post pictures if I can find them.
I think truss roofs are quicker on SCIP walls not better.
Top picture is Boulder SCIP home the was one of the many houses that burned down. Shocking how many are rebuilding with wood again.


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11 Jan 2012 01:31 AM
Posted By SCIP Panel on 10 Jan 2012 09:28 PM


First ICF home I saw ended up getting torn down.



Why did the ICF home have to be torn down?




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11 Jan 2012 01:50 AM
Posted By Alton on 10 Jan 2012 09:43 PM
Lbear,

Since I have designed and built one-storey homes with SCIP and other systems, I guess I am more optimistic than you are about new technology.

Here are my apprehensions about new technologies:

- new technology = $$$$ Big Bucks  - the minute you say new technology, your GC says get the checkbook out - sometimes the cost of building green or new is not worth it in the end, it can take 30+ years to even break even sometimes

- Is there support when things go bad, will these companies be around in 5-10 years, will they warranty?

- there is something to be said for "time tested" technologies. With new tech and 10+ years down the road will problems arise with the structure that nobody seen coming? Aluminum household wiring comes to mind, it was the best new thing on the block, unfortunately it is now a deadly and costly disaster. There are many other new home building technologies that turned into nightmares and costly disasters years later.

 In the end the homeowner is the one stuck with the headaches and financial costs, the companies move on, the GC moves on, the subs move one, it is the homeowner who is left holding the ball & the high mortgage payment.

If I were very wealthy, I would eagerly accept and utilize these new technologies, but for the average person, many of these technologies are too costly and pose too high of a financial risk.

I hope to use ICF in my future home but as I mentioned, there are only TWO people who know how to use ICF properly in my state. It will come down to PRICE, it ALWAYS comes down to price. If ICF is $40k more over wood frame, then I am stuck with wood frame.


As far as SCIPs go. I contacted both U.S companies and I got NO response.



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11 Jan 2012 09:24 AM
but for the average person, many of these technologies are too costly
I think it is more a matter of priorities. My folks' dream home was 2300 sf on lakefront property. That was twice the size of the homes they grew up in and the trend continues today with many of the homes you see here up at 3000 sf and more. Home features that I remember as being seen only in the "luxury homes" are now increasingly demanded everywhere. Granite countertops, large extra rooms, appliances and other amenities increase costs that might better be spent on energy-efficiency or other forms of quality. In my area, I can't count the number of people trying to make a living selling expensive countertops, but just try to find someone with any experience in Green Building.


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11 Jan 2012 09:44 AM
SCIPs look interesting, I would like to be involved in a build. However when compared to ICF construction, ICF is better overall, due to strength, design flexibility and cladding options. How about price per sf?


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11 Jan 2012 10:42 AM
It is not for the faint of heart or those with limited resources $$$.


While I understand your points about new technologies, I've watched workers in central america with no SCIP experience and few tools turn out good SCIP homes for less $ than conventional construction. Of course down there, all of the workers have concrete and stucco experience (although they love to use a watery mix and aren't very careful about wet curing).


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11 Jan 2012 12:46 PM
Although I think that SIPs, ICF and SCIPs have a good track record, I agree with Lbear in that the installer can make the difference in quality.  A bad framer can mess up a stick-built home.  I have seen it and participated in correcting the many errors.  I have actually seen stick-built homes in the framing stage be condemed by the local code official.  All construction was stopped on site until weeks of corrections were made.  That usually upsets the client and costs dearly.


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11 Jan 2012 02:18 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 09:44 AM
SCIPs look interesting, I would like to be involved in a build. However when compared to ICF construction, ICF is better overall, due to strength, design flexibility and cladding options. How about price per sf?

I agree that about ICF but SCIP would probably tie or beat out ICF in regards to earthquake "strength". SCIP's has the strength of an ICF wall WITHOUT the mass weight. SCIPs can take a 7.0+ quake and come out unscathed. Seismic is a different animal when compared to high winds/tornado's. From what I have read, SCIP has the advantage over ICF in seismic.

I don't know how much I would like concrete on every interior wall or a concrete ceiling. It would feel like living in a bunker. One would have to incorporate some good interior designing to offset the concrete everywhere.  I would most defiantly have to soften the interior with wood and colors.

I wonder if one can put a T&G wood ceiling on a SCIP ceiling?
Can you paint an interior wall with latex paint?
How does one install kitchen cabinets on SCIP walls?


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11 Jan 2012 03:23 PM
Posted By Alton on 11 Jan 2012 12:46 PM
Although I think that SIPs, ICF and SCIPs have a good track record, I agree with Lbear in that the installer can make the difference in quality.  A bad framer can mess up a stick-built home.  I have seen it and participated in correcting the many errors.  I have actually seen stick-built homes in the framing stage be condemed by the local code official.  All construction was stopped on site until weeks of corrections were made.  That usually upsets the client and costs dearly.
 

Alton I agree  

I once went to look at a house that my loan officer was told needed to be torn down.

I told them after doing an inspection the house needs an engineer to look at it.

The last line on the engineer’s correction letter said to expect 100% more in items that needed to be correct but were covered up.

The contractor even put trusses in the wrong place and cut them to fit. It was the cleanest work he did on the job problem is you do not put three point bearing trusses in a two point location.

We had to install new trusses and by the time I came on the job the roofing, rough electrical and plumbing were completed.

Boy what a job that was.

I once bought a house in framing stage in Breckenridge Colorado knowing it was a tear down from the start.



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11 Jan 2012 03:44 PM

Any pictures of ICF home standing up to this ?
Picture taken from http://www.3dsmartstructures.com/ website a Trid SCIP builder who is on his way today to bid putting a SCIP roof on a block house in the Caribbean .

Posted By Lbear on 11 Jan 2012 02:18 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 09:44 AM
SCIPs look interesting, I would like to be involved in a build. However when compared to ICF construction, ICF is better overall, due to strength, design flexibility and cladding options. How about price per sf?

I agree that about ICF but SCIP would probably tie or beat out ICF in regards to earthquake "strength". SCIP's has the strength of an ICF wall WITHOUT the mass weight. SCIPs can take a 7.0+ quake and come out unscathed. Seismic is a different animal when compared to high winds/tornado's. From what I have read, SCIP has the advantage over ICF in seismic.

I don't know how much I would like concrete on every interior wall or a concrete ceiling. It would feel like living in a bunker. One would have to incorporate some good interior designing to offset the concrete everywhere.  I would most defiantly have to soften the interior with wood and colors.

I wonder if one can put a T&G wood ceiling on a SCIP ceiling?
Can you paint an interior wall with latex paint?
How does one install kitchen cabinets on SCIP walls?

Hands down SCIP beats ICF in strength , earthquake 8.3 on the design I use,
 Bond beams and floors spanning 30' roofs 30' flat and 70' gable minumn 5/12   

Reguarding thermal mass it beats ICF by 50% and SIP by 100% as it has little on none
Check outhttp://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/thermal/index.html .

Firehttp check out://www.3dsmartstructures.com/aFirefightersSolution_AlpineGreenLiving.pdf


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11 Jan 2012 03:46 PM

(I wonder if one can put a T&G wood ceiling on a SCIP ceiling?)

I put it on the walls, ceiling would be the same. We also covered one wall with metal and painted the third level with a sanded paint.

Plus I got a deal on the natural stone seen on the first level at $1.00 per sq.ft. it was $16.00 could not pass it up.

By the way today without heat on it was 60 I will see what the temp is tomorrow morning.
The heatpump is set at 55 and I have twice turned it up to 64 for  heating inspections in the past three weeks as of tomorrow.


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11 Jan 2012 08:22 PM
I do not believe two 1" thick shotcrete walls is stronger than 6" concrete. I have my doubts seismic wise too.


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11 Jan 2012 08:49 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 08:22 PM
I do not believe two 1" thick shotcrete walls is stronger than 6" concrete. I have my doubts seismic wise too.
 
Here is one study
PDF]
  Behavior of the MR Sandwich Panel in Flexure - Blastcrete ...[script removed]http://www.google.com/search?q=blas...linkdoctor

 

 

I use monolithic 1 ½” on each side equaling 3” minimum.

I also use one of the engineers who was involved in the study. Who tells me the current design meet standards equaling 8.3 earthquake and 250 mile winds.

.

The blast crete / shot crete design is not a standard pour design.

 I have a friend with hundreds of ICF pours who also uses additives the increase strength and how high you can pour without a blowout so high tech mixes are not solely SCIPs.

 



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11 Jan 2012 08:57 PM

Thermal mass
Today was a no solar gain day with clouds and snow all day.

So today the inside temperature was 60 with outside temps in the mid teens.

Inside temperatures were in the mid 60s tomorrow make three weeks with the heat turned off.

I did turn the heat up twice last week for heating inspections and to check out the desuperheater then turned it off. The free hot water flowed just fine.

The real heat gains daily have been from the sun. Today the walls gave reading from 64 to 68, with doors and door glass 51 to 56 and windows 58. The outside temperature at the same time was 24.



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11 Jan 2012 09:35 PM
I read the report, it read like an advertisement for that brand. I did not see where it said it was stronger than 6" of reinforced concrete. I have done ICF floors that free span 30' and support the live load of vehicles.


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11 Jan 2012 09:41 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 09:35 PM
I read the report, it read like an advertisement for that brand. I did not see where it said it was stronger than 6" of reinforced concrete. I have done ICF floors that free span 30' and support the live load of vehicles.

I pulled it off the internet, so I guess it is an advertisement but not for me.

Are we talking 30 feet clear span? Or supported mid span?

 

I would rather see all higher efficiency building systems become the norm.

When I put it up I did not say it said anything about ICFs.

If you have data on ICFs wind loads and earthquake strengths I would be glad to see it.

I know fire ratings depend on what you cover the ICFs with.

The reason I found SCIP was when I was designing a home in the mountains and found out Hardi Board transfers heat and needs a thermal break.

I was not worried about earthquakes or hurricanes in CO.  We lost almost two hundred home with the last two big fires.



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11 Jan 2012 10:09 PM
 


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11 Jan 2012 10:12 PM
Posted By jrobicheaux on 08 Jan 2012 01:36 PM
This is a question for "SCIP Panel"

I'm building a SCIP home in P.C. Florida.  Can you tell me what your maximum unsupported span was for floor and roof panels?


Jim

My spans are flat 25’ but the panels are designed for 30’. If you want my engineers # email me


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12 Jan 2012 03:31 AM
Does anyone utilize SCIP in Arizona?

Do you have any pics of interior window areas or closeup of the walls?


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12 Jan 2012 08:45 AM
I have no problems believing that 2-3" of high strength concrete will outperform 6" of watery mix in ICFs.


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12 Jan 2012 09:08 AM
Posted By jonr on 12 Jan 2012 08:45 AM
I have no problems believing that 2-3" of high strength concrete will outperform 6" of watery mix in ICFs.


it is not 2-3" in a SCIP it is 1-1.5" on each side. And if you are assuming the ICF system is improperly installed with a "water mix", it is not comparable. I could assume the SCIP shot-crete was installed on a hot sunny windy day causing accelerated hydration and weak concrete.


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12 Jan 2012 02:25 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 12 Jan 2012 09:08 AM
Posted By jonr on 12 Jan 2012 08:45 AM
I have no problems believing that 2-3" of high strength concrete will outperform 6" of watery mix in ICFs.


it is not 2-3" in a SCIP it is 1-1.5" on each side. And if you are assuming the ICF system is improperly installed with a "water mix", it is not comparable. I could assume the SCIP shot-crete was installed on a hot sunny windy day causing accelerated hydration and weak concrete.


 

Or a scip shoot not tented on freezing days.     Lots of what if to be sure.
 My engineer made daily inspections during the shoot.

I shoot 1.5 each side 10 sack mix

I know what my heating bill was. I also saw it drop by 70% when we shot the interior.


I only know one ICF contractor, he is as high tech as anyone with his blend of additives to increase flow and set for faster lifts.


I will assume anyone on this fourm cares, takes the trouble to not take short cuts that compromise the job.




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12 Jan 2012 02:38 PM
Temperature today outside was 7 degrees . The inside had dropped to 59 from 60 the lowest to-date.
I am tracking two temperature readings
The thermostat and the SCIP walls. The walls always read higher.
So the walls were low mid 60s . We had a lot of trafic coming in and out and the air dropped to 55 (thermostat) and I dropped the thermostat to 50 so the heat would not come on.
After I finished going in and out for two hours the air temperature started to raise again and with today being a sunny day the wall with sun had raised to low 70s by 10:00.
Any wall with thermal mass can do this why do so many discount its affect?


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12 Jan 2012 03:52 PM
Posted By SCIP Panels on 12 Jan 2012 02:38 PM
Temperature today outside was 7 degrees . The inside had dropped to 59 from 60 the lowest to-date.
I am tracking two temperature readings
The thermostat and the SCIP walls. The walls always read higher.
So the walls were low mid 60s . We had a lot of trafic coming in and out and the air dropped to 55 (thermostat) and I dropped the thermostat to 50 so the heat would not come on.
After I finished going in and out for two hours the air temperature started to raise again and with today being a sunny day the wall with sun had raised to low 70s by 10:00.
Any wall with thermal mass can do this why do so many discount its affect?

I assume that a SCIP wall has better thermal mass effect because it is exposed and not sandwiched between 2 layers of EPS, correct?

What wall are your referring to that raised to the low 70s? I assume it is the interior concrete wall, correct?

In summer would the thermal mass effect make the interior wall very hot (100F+)?


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12 Jan 2012 04:58 PM
I got a quote for a SCIP. It was $5.40 a square foot. I am still waiting to find out if that includes the roof area, Shotcrete and labor costs. If it doesn't, then it will get very expensive, very fast.

Out of THREE SCIP companies, only ONE returned my calls/email.

If I understand the technology correctly. I would save money by NOT having to drywall the interior walls and by NOT having to "finish" the exterior with siding or stucco, since it has a concrete finish already. I would have to paint the interior and exterior concrete.






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12 Jan 2012 05:08 PM
Posted By ICFconstruction on 11 Jan 2012 09:35 PM
I read the report, it read like an advertisement for that brand. I did not see where it said it was stronger than 6" of reinforced concrete. I have done ICF floors that free span 30' and support the live load of vehicles.

With ICF, there is no doubt about its strength in regards to load, winds and mass. Where ICF seems to kind of be silent is when it comes to seismic. They always talk about tornado's, high winds, fires, floods, but there is often no mention of seismic.

With SCIPs, seismic is where they excel, at least from what I have researched.


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12 Jan 2012 07:32 PM
Posted By Lbear on 12 Jan 2012 04:58 PM
I got a quote for a SCIP. It was $5.40 a square foot. I am still waiting to find out if that includes the roof area, Shotcrete and labor costs. If it doesn't, then it will get very expensive, very fast.

Out of THREE SCIP companies, only ONE returned my calls/email.

If I understand the technology correctly. I would save money by NOT having to drywall the interior walls and by NOT having to "finish" the exterior with siding or stucco, since it has a concrete finish already. I would have to paint the interior and exterior concrete.






I know costs are high in Colorado for stucco/ shot crete work.
The Denver Panel maker is $6.00 to $7.50 per foot for R40 panels. They will move on site for projects big enough.

 

How you finish it is your choice.

The look my client was going for inside was loft/ commercial.

Exterior I have already put the picture up some areas totally unfinished , wood, metal and painted areas.



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12 Jan 2012 07:53 PM

 

 

Lbear

 

(I assume that a SCIP wall has better thermal mass effect because it is exposed and not sandwiched between 2 layers of EPS, correct?)

 

According to Oak Ridge national laboratories, 50% increase with the concrete on the inside of the foam wall over concrete sandwiched in the foam.

 They do not list SCIP, ICF or SIP but it is clear what systems they researched.

(What wall are your referring to that raised to the low 70s? I assume it is the interior concrete wall, correct?)

The walls that hit 70 to 80 are Interior walls and exterior walls on the interior side where the sun hits.

Today with a 10 foot window that was replaced, open for an hour. Workers in and out and the window guy also left the front door open when he left the inside temperature of the walls inside was 60 and 68 where the sun hit today

 

 

(In summer would the thermal mass effect make the interior wall very hot (100F+)?)

 

With the sun higher in the horizon it will not shine in as far into the house.

The smart glass is supposed to counter the effects in summer and we have a design for a sun shade if it is necessary.



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13 Jan 2012 01:16 AM
Where ICF seems to kind of be silent is when it comes to seismic. They always talk about tornado's, high winds, fires, floods, but there is often no mention of seismic.
Haven't we been down this road before?

ICF is essentially concrete and steel composite - "reinforced concrete". There is very little that has as large a body of "earthquake" work associated with it. Reinforced concrete is used everywhere, particularly in seismic applications and much of the ICF literature is devoted to this as well. Maybe you could point us to a comparison of SCIPS and ICF that would support your notion that SCIPS perform better in this regard.


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13 Jan 2012 03:28 AM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 13 Jan 2012 01:16 AM
Haven't we been down this road before?

ICF is essentially concrete and steel composite - "reinforced concrete". There is very little that has as large a body of "earthquake" work associated with it. Reinforced concrete is used everywhere, particularly in seismic applications and much of the ICF literature is devoted to this as well. Maybe you could point us to a comparison of SCIPS and ICF that would support your notion that SCIPS perform better in this regard.

The question was never really answered. I would really like to see some data showing a ICF with a 6" core and the report on how well it can and does stand up to seismic forces.

There should be some shake table studies out there for ICF.


SCIP Report





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13 Jan 2012 09:06 AM
The question was never really answered.
Maybe you didn't understand the answer. The answer is that ICF IS reinforced concrete. There is a huge body of work on seismic forces and reinforced concrete.

This SCIP report merely prepares some groundwork for the engineering treatment of SCIP panels. There is no seismic analysis in it and certainly no shake table work.


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13 Jan 2012 10:06 AM
I am sure SCIP does well with seismic forces, however that is only one of the forces applied to structures. I like the relative high ratio of steel to concrete as well as the truss wire between the concrete wythes. Overall ICF i think is a better wall system.

With a 6" concrete wall, there is always room for more rebar to make it stronger and improve it's seismic performance. I consulted with and engineer in a seismic area of Argentina and he plugged a waffle grid ICF house into his software, and he said it performed well.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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13 Jan 2012 11:56 AM
I'm the guy building the SCIP home in Panama City Fl.  I'm going to the build site next week and it will be my last chance to influence a design decision that I'm increasingly uncomfortable with.

I'm looking for ideas on ledger connections for my 12 inch floor panels to my 8 inch wall panels.  The first course of wall panels is 18 ft tall and the floor panels must connect at about the 12 ft level.  This means the floor panels can't overtop the wall panels because of the height difference.  My engineer has the floor panel upper and lower wythes connecting to the wall panel inner wythe only with wire mesh gussets.  He is relying on the diagonals of the truss to carry load and moments to the outer wythe of the vertical wall.  I don't think much of this design.

In addition to creating an eccentrically loaded wall, this arrangement will limit the outer vertical wall wythe function to that of a buttress whose only contribution will be to help keep the inner wall wythe in column.  My idea to remedy this is to connect the upper and lower floor panel wythes to the outer wall panel whthe with #3 rebar.  A six ft section with a 90 deg bend could be driven from the outer wall into the upper and lower floor panels and wire tied to the Z truss chords.  This is not a perfect solution because six inches of this rebar will be floating in wall foam instead of being embedded in concrete making load transfer very iffy.  I think it would however increase the moment transfer.

I'm looking for any other ideas those of you with experience might be willing to share.

Thanks in advance

Jim


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13 Jan 2012 12:56 PM
Jim,

I am not an engineer so take what I say only as an idea that should be verified throughly by your engineer. 

If I understand your concerns correctly, you do not trust the inner wythe of shotcrete to carry the floor load.  If so, then another alternative might be to through-bolt a galvanized 1/4" x 6" x 6" steel angle to both wythes of shotcrete in addition to using the detail as recommended by your engineer.  This method might be overkill but it would offer an ample bearing for the shotcrete floor panels.  I would think that the bolts alone with their inherent shear strength would support the floor load.  This would be more like using a belt with suspenders approach.  If this alternative will work, then your engineer can specify the steel angle and the type of bolt, size and spacing.

The bolt heads could be buried in the outer wythe of shotcrete or a trim band could hide them.

When do you think the shotcrete will be applied?  I would love to see the installed SCIP panels before shotcrete is applied so that I can compare the installation with how I installed Insteel SCIPs some years ago.  Now that Insteel (Tridipanel) is so far away and freight so great, I am considering Met-Rock SCIPs installed by Envirolast Structures for my clients.





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13 Jan 2012 01:03 PM


Thanks for the suggestion. We should be doing poured columns next week. Don't think shotcrete will begin until Feb. Rest assured there will be ample photo documentation in the blog. Look for another episode posting around the 25th of Jan.

Jim


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13 Jan 2012 01:44 PM
The panel supplier doesn't have connection details? I have seen on various sites where they just cut the wall panel and rest floor panel on the lower wall panel, then start the 2nd level wall panel on top of the floor panel w/ rebar connections under the mesh to tie in upper/lower wall/floor panels.
or they remove the eps on wall panel and created a bond beam w/ rebar to support floor panel. I saw they do the bond beam route with bolts for ledger board then truss floors as well.

Fascinating, good luck!


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13 Jan 2012 02:54 PM
Jim,

I just sent you a Private Message through this Green Building Talk forum.  Please use my included e-mail address when responding.


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14 Jan 2012 10:16 PM
I have no idea what the numbers look like, but at and just below the floor level seems like an area where extra diagonal truss wires could be useful. I would be careful with adding rebar because of the point load potential.


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15 Jan 2012 06:01 PM

SCIP not so new

I would like to know more about the role of SCIP in building a 35 story hotel in Japan. I saw a model of a ten Story SCIP building that is in planning stages.

I know of a hospital where SCIP has been chosen or is being considered.

Pictures in link below.

http://www.globalpanelsolutions.com/GlobalPanelSolutionsBrochure.htm

 

COMPLETED PROJECTS - SPACE FRAME PANEL CONSTRUCTION

Space frame panel construction has been in existence for over 30 years, with applications throughout the world.

United States

Residential Housing Developments – California

264-Fontana 126-San Bernardino

124-Sunnymead 138-Palm Desert

112-Lancaster 112-Santa Maria

107-Ontario 75-Rialto

40-Perris 35-Chino

21-Coachella 18-Victorville

18-Bakersfield 13-Sacramento

75-Chino Hills

74-Bungalow Units Warner Springs Ranch

 

Single-Family Homes: Industrial & Commercial Buildings: Prisons:

Sierra Madre, CA Atwater, CA Montgomery Co., MD

Santa Barbara, CA Apple Valley, CA Greenville, VA

Anza Borrego, CA Ramona, CA

Malibu, CA Palm Springs, CA

Palm Dessert, CA Orange, CA

Houston, TX Anaheim, CA

Key Largo, Fl Durango, CO

Palm Beach, FL West Haven, CT

Winterpark, FL Houston, TX

Hopedale, FL Rochester, NY

Homestead, FL

25 Homes Arizona Casa Grande, AZ

Palm Desert, CA

Castorville, CA

**Residential projects totaling approximately 100 units have been constructed by other builders in the states of Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Texas, Nebraska, Alaska & California

H U D approvals have been issued for panel construction in various areas

HABITAT FOR HUMANITY approvals have been issued for panel construction in various areas

 

 



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18 Jan 2012 12:52 PM

WOC Las Vegas

 

Is anyone going to the World of Concrete expo in Las Vegas?

 

I will be checking out these guys Global Panel Solutions any other relevant suppliers , manufactures or SCIP related displays.

http://www.globalpanelsolutions.com/GlobalPanelSolutionsBrochure.htm



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18 Jan 2012 08:05 PM
I plan to be there.  Be sure to wear a name badge that says SCIP Panel on it so I will recognize you.  Of course, I will be wearing my blue and orange AU cap to show my support for Auburn University Tigers.  My name badge will read Alton Keown.  My cell number: 334 329-0957.   Who else will be there?

In February I plan to attend the International Builders Show in Orlando.  Great show also.  WOC and IBS are my two favorites.


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22 Jan 2012 04:11 PM
Forum members.  I've posted an update to my SCIP project blog

http://waterfrontbuildinginpanamacity.blogspot.com/





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22 Jan 2012 06:14 PM
jrobicheaux,
I have followed your blog with extreme interest, and have in fact sent my own plans to Mr. Majure for a quote. I am only about 6 hours north of PC, so I may get myself down there to watch your SCIP process and pour! Can you send me an update when you think they will start to shoot the concrete? thanks!
Catherine


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22 Jan 2012 08:55 PM

Catherine,

I plan to see the SCIP project in Forida about the middle of February on my way back from the IBS show in Orlando.  Will your project be located in Georgia?



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23 Jan 2012 12:29 PM
Thanks for the update. One question. Do you have any concerns with the metal exposed at the perimeter of the columns due to the "mesh standoffs"?


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23 Jan 2012 03:42 PM
A couple of things to mitigate that.


1.  The columns are all inside the structure so not exposed directly to weather.
2. The Mesh is galvanized which helps
3. Any visible mesh will be notch ground down before the final 1/2 inch plaster coat.

There are no guarantees.


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23 Jan 2012 06:00 PM
Alton, you and I have emailed a few times! :) My house will be about 45 min south of Atlanta. I am still awaiting a quote, so I have no idea if the SCIP panels will be in my price range. Once I get some idea of cost, I will need to sit down and really figure out what I can cut to make it work. After another tornado warning in my county last night, I love the idea of a storm stronghold! Jrobicheaux, how are you finishing the interior walls? Are you framing some walls? And what sort of paint/plaster/etc are you planning for the interior. I know you are using Tabby for the exterior- that sounds really perfect for your location! Also, what sort of cellphone reception/wifi do you think you'll have? Seems to me that you will have to have a repeater inside the home, and I wonder if that will be enough for cellphone reception?


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24 Jan 2012 12:35 AM
Thanks Catherine.  I am in Las Vegas attending the World of Concrete and could not check my recent e-mails to see if I already had your info.

Any regular posters attending the World of Concrete.  If you want to meet, my cell number is 334 329-0957.


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24 Jan 2012 10:25 PM
Posted By Alton on 24 Jan 2012 12:35 AM
Thanks Catherine.  I am in Las Vegas attending the World of Concrete and could not check my recent e-mails to see if I already had your info.

Any regular posters attending the World of Concrete.  If you want to meet, my cell number is 334 329-0957.

Let us know what new or interesting things you find at the show!


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25 Jan 2012 09:02 PM
Catherine

-Ground floor all interior walls are Plaster covered SCIP
-Second (living) level Most SCIP walls are Tabby, some in closets, mechanical rooms and pantries are plaster.
-There are some interior non-load bearing partition walls on the Second level they will be 2X4 stud walls with sound batting and covered with wall board and painted.

Cell phone coverage:

The existing coverage in the area is awful.  I have T-Mobile but am unable to establish a reliable connection standing out in the open even if roaming to other carriers.  Not a concern, I'm able to reliably connect over my neighbors WiFi.  All smart phones can do this.  The house will be WiFi equipped so I don't think I'll have an issue.  Besides I may just throw all my cell phones away.

Jim


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29 Jan 2012 11:50 PM
Jrobichaux, great informative blog, thanks for sharing!

In your blog you were considering an elevator.  Have you looked at a pneumatic elevator?  They don't require a pit so cheaper setup.  I have no experience with them but may be something to take a look at.



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31 Jan 2012 02:05 PM
Yes, I looked but not very hard.  I couldn't fall in love with the acrylic tube.  Right now I have elevator provisions.  The largest poured column in the design is in fact, the elevator load wall.  It's 4.5 ft X 10 inches and goes all the way to the roof.  The pit is already part of the foundation and the floor aperture above it is the only framed lumber floor in the house.  It can be ripped out easily when I'm ready to proceed.  My architect tells me that hydraulic is both cheaper and more reliable than the cable drum variant.


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31 Jan 2012 02:32 PM
When you say hydraulic, are you referring to the piston driven type?  If so, verify scheduled maintenance and reliability.


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03 Feb 2012 12:15 AM
Posted By FBBP on 23 Jan 2012 12:29 PM
Thanks for the update. One question. Do you have any concerns with the metal exposed at the perimeter of the columns due to the "mesh standoffs"?

A picture is worth a few hundred words.  Looks like the Mesh Cage and Standoffs worked just peachy with no voids.  The steelwork for this column went up 10 ft and the concrete lift stopped at 8 ft.  It will go up an additional 2 ft to meet a beam. 

An added benefit just in the horizontal.  On a per ft basis, the area of the steel in the Mesh is equivalent to adding an additional 3/8 in stirrup and unlike the rebar its galvanized.







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03 Feb 2012 09:58 AM
If the wire mesh standoffs have a G90 galvanized coating, then there should not be any concern about the wire mesh rusting.  If the wire mesh has less coating than a G90, then the finish coat over the shotcrete may be enough to keep oxygen from reaching the mesh.


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03 Feb 2012 02:15 PM

 Researching (SCIP) Structural Concrete Insulated Panels

I am currently talking to one of the inventers of the earliest record of SCIP Panels I have been able to locate.

 

After talking to one of the inventers of the SCIP system I now know the rest of the story you might say.

I posted on a forum about a 35 story in Japan of SCIP Panels.

I have since found out the building was not built in Japan or of SCIP panels.

The building was built in Singapore and elevator shaft is where the panels were used.

Other buildings I am researching.

Houses built in Haiti before the earth quakes that were undamaged.

 

Houses build in Miami area built before Hurricane Andrews that were undamaged or still habitable where most all other houses in the area were not livable.

 

A house that was filled with mud from ST Helens volcano erupted. They remover the mud and power sprayed the house, replaced windows and doors and the house was good as new.

 



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03 Feb 2012 04:42 PM
Posted By Alton on 03 Feb 2012 09:58 AM
If the wire mesh standoffs have a G90 galvanized coating, then there should not be any concern about the wire mesh rusting.  If the wire mesh has less coating than a G90, then the finish coat over the shotcrete may be enough to keep oxygen from reaching the mesh.


Alton - I was concerned about the fact that the standoffs were site formed therefore assume open end cuts. OP stated that all columns were interior which makes it somewhat of a moot point. I would question the contention that they have a value equal to a 3/8" stirrup as they would not have full one inch concrete cover neither are they in position to perform that function but again this would have been over and above design so not important. Bob


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04 Feb 2012 09:02 AM
Posted By FBBP on 03 Feb 2012 04:42 PM
Posted By Alton on 03 Feb 2012 09:58 AM
If the wire mesh standoffs have a G90 galvanized coating, then there should not be any concern about the wire mesh rusting.  If the wire mesh has less coating than a G90, then the finish coat over the shotcrete may be enough to keep oxygen from reaching the mesh.


Alton - I was concerned about the fact that the standoffs were site formed therefore assume open end cuts. OP stated that all columns were interior which makes it somewhat of a moot point. I would question the contention that they have a value equal to a 3/8" stirrup as they would not have full one inch concrete cover neither are they in position to perform that function but again this would have been over and above design so not important. Bob
jrobicheaux - The standoffs were site formed but they are 4ft long X 3in wide and the cuts are on the 3 in side.  The galvanization on the strand closest to the concrete surface is undisturbed.  The Fc of the concrete in the pour was ordered from the ready mix plant at 4000psi.  Pretty close the the 4200psi value that the ACI handbook refers to as "waterproof".  That plus the fact these columns are inside the garage/workshop and therefore not exposed directly to weather makes my corrosion worry bead go away.



The standoffs aren't structural and weren't the contributors to the As (Area of Steel) to which I referred.  I was suggesting that the Mesh Cage which surrounds the stirrups has continuous horizontal and vertical steel strands on 1 inch centers.   When you sum the area of steel in a double layer of mesh it works out to 0.105 in^2/ft.  A piece of #3 rebar has an area of 0.110 in^2.  Therefore a double layer of mesh 1 ft tall or if you prefer a single layer 2 ft tall, has very nearly the same area of steel as a single #3 rebar.  The Mesh Cage also has vertical strands so this calculus extends in that direction as well.

The mesh standoffs were installed to insure a minimum of 1 inch of concrete cover over the stirrups and 1.5 inches over the vertical #5 rebar.  If you look again at the original picture you'll see the achieved cover is closer to 1.5 for the stirrups and 2.0 for the #5s.

I've convinced myself that the Mesh Cage is a non-trivial contributor to both the bending moment reaction and hoop stress reaction of the column.  It certainly doesn't replace the rebar in the column and I'm not suggesting it should.  It just brings extra strength to the party in a sexy space frame sort of way.




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04 Feb 2012 08:55 PM
Why is the ground bare? Are you not pouring a slab until after the walls?


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04 Feb 2012 10:06 PM
You are correct,

This structure isn't supported by a slab it's on a poured 2.5 ft wide and 1 ft deep footing.  Post #19 on the blog

http://waterfrontbuildinginpanamaci...erted.html

shows what they looked like before being temporarily covered up by the construction process. 

Just about the last thing in the concrete phase will be to dig out the dirt and rebound from the shotcrete process, add a stone sub course, reinforcing wire and then pour a conventional slab whose edges will rest on the footers.  The slab will be isolated from the walls and columns by fiber insets as it's only purpose is as a garage/workshop floor, no structural contributions whatsoever.

Check your inbox, I sent you some info via private messaging.

Jim


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05 Feb 2012 04:55 PM
I've added and interim update to the blog and a theoretical question that some of you "SRC Guru's" might find interesting.

http://waterfrontbuildinginpana...owner.html



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06 Feb 2012 11:10 AM
Placing the concrete slab after the walls, floors and roof are shotcreted will allow for a clean slab.  Rebound (shotcrete that did not stick) from the shotcreting process really can make a mess on a nice slab that you might want to expose.  Another thing to consider, is that if the area has already been excavated where the slab will go, then most of the rebound can be left in the area after spreading it out.  Less work in spreading than having to shovel it to the exterior and then carrying it off.  Been there and done that.


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06 Feb 2012 11:18 AM
Thanks Alton and Jim, that is super good information to know. I am planning to stain and polish my slab, so I want it to stay pretty!


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06 Feb 2012 11:21 AM

Jim,

I wonder if columns lend themselves to post-tensioning.  Using multiple wire mesh cages, post-tensioned cables and a very limited amount of rebar might work as well as the typical reinforcement with rebar cages.  Post tensioning does require specialized equipment that might be more suitable for larger projects.

Since the wire mesh is galvanized and the rebar is covered well with concrete as in your case, I do not think there should be any problems with corrision in your salt air area.  With much less concrete coverage, protection from corrosion can be had by using G90 galvanized steel rebar or by using basalt Rock Rebar (non-metal).

Jim, please try to include a close up picture of Michael in your blog so I will be able to recognize him when he is not wearing his red hard hat.



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07 Feb 2012 06:25 PM
For Beams perhaps not so sure about columns.

The Civil Engineering department at my university once made a concrete diving board using post tensioning.  As you can imagine it got poor reviews from the dive team but the demonstration was effective.  It showed you could make a relatively thin steel reinforced concrete "plank" that could be significantly deformed without spalling and failing. 

I think it has something to do with preloading the concrete so that the face that would normally be seeing tension when a conventional SRC structure is deformed instead just sees less compression.  This means of course that the face that would normally be seeing compression is seeing more compression.  Perhaps some wild Frank Lloyd Wright inspired cantilevered patio or roof would benefit from post tensioning.

For a column though, the loads are axial and the static loads before any moments show up to try to bend the column are considerable.  Now that I think about it wouldn't the static axial loads on a column be preloading the concrete without tensioning the vertical steel achieving essentially the same effect?

Jim


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07 Feb 2012 07:21 PM
Posted By jrobicheaux on 07 Feb 2012 06:25 PM
For Beams perhaps not so sure about columns.

The Civil Engineering department at my university once made a concrete diving board using post tensioning.  As you can imagine it got poor reviews from the dive team but the demonstration was effective.  It showed you could make a relatively thin steel reinforced concrete "plank" that could be significantly deformed without spalling and failing. 

I think it has something to do with preloading the concrete so that the face that would normally be seeing tension when a conventional SRC structure is deformed instead just sees less compression.  This means of course that the face that would normally be seeing compression is seeing more compression.  Perhaps some wild Frank Lloyd Wright inspired cantilevered patio or roof would benefit from post tensioning.

For a column though, the loads are axial and the static loads before any moments show up to try to bend the column are considerable.  Now that I think about it wouldn't the static axial loads on a column be preloading the concrete without tensioning the vertical steel achieving essentially the same effect?

Jim


Not unless you tensioned it in all four directions. Think of a 4" column say ten feet tall. Put a spreader devise at mid point say 12". Run cables to all four points and over the spreader and it will be much stronger than the 4" column. Do only two sides and it will be much weaker than the column.


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07 Feb 2012 10:22 PM
I'm absolutely certain I misunderstand what you are suggesting. 

A concrete column with no fixed (embedded in concrete) steel but instead a top and bottom cap connecting external tensioning cables also running top to bottom over a mid span external strut support four times the diameter of the column?

Jim






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07 Feb 2012 10:43 PM
You did;-) I was referring to a steel column similair to a jib boom as an example. My point was that unlike a slab or diving board you would have to tension a concrete column in four directions to prevent the imposed load from bending it in the other direction. You would still have to have sufficient tie steel to prevent the post tension cables from breaking out. Don't think it would be very efficient but could probably be done.


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08 Feb 2012 07:03 PM

I believe you're describing a Pre Tensioning technique, Post Tensioning requires the steel be isolated from the concrete.  This is normally done by running the steel which is four or five times stronger than ordinary rebar through lubricated plastic tubes or Sabots.  After the concrete is fully cured the steel is placed in tension with the load transferred to the concrete through the end anchorages. 

In Pre Tensioning, steel is placed in tension before the concrete is poured and bonds to it.  After the concrete cures the tension on the steel is released and the resulting compressive load is passed to the concrete through the steel/concrete bond.   Pre Tensioning has to be done before the pour.  Once steel is bonded to concrete any attempt to pre load the concrete by tensioning the steel becomes a kind of "self licking lollipop".  I believe Pre Tensioning can only be done in a manufacturing context.

Post Tensioning for columns is an interesting technique that requires ultra high strength steel and concrete and some pretty sophisticated equipment.  It appears to be a niche product particularly suited to highly corrosive environments like salt water. 

This is a great discussion but for me, until concrete gets North of $500 a yard, I think I'll stick with steel of the right strength and size, in the right places and concrete of the appropriate strength in the quantities needed.

Jim 




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08 Feb 2012 07:44 PM
Posted By jrobicheaux on 08 Feb 2012 07:03 PM

I believe you're describing a Pre Tensioning technique, Post Tensioning requires the steel be isolated from the concrete.  This is normally done by running the steel which is four or five times stronger than ordinary rebar through lubricated plastic tubes or Sabots.  After the concrete is fully cured the steel is placed in tension with the load transferred to the concrete through the end anchorages. 

In Pre Tensioning, steel is placed in tension before the concrete is poured and bonds to it.  After the concrete cures the tension on the steel is released and the resulting compressive load is passed to the concrete through the steel/concrete bond.   Pre Tensioning has to be done before the pour.  Once steel is bonded to concrete any attempt to pre load the concrete by tensioning the steel becomes a kind of "self licking lollipop".  I believe Pre Tensioning can only be done in a manufacturing context.

Post Tensioning for columns is an interesting technique that requires ultra high strength steel and concrete and some pretty sophisticated equipment.  It appears to be a niche product particularly suited to highly corrosive environments like salt water. 

This is a great discussion but for me, until concrete gets North of $500 a yard, I think I'll stick with steel of the right strength and size, in the right places and concrete of the appropriate strength in the quantities needed.

Jim 




Jim - I agree that that economics don't make sense for a column. Post tension can be done internally or externally. The trick is to make sure the tension is being applied to the project. If it is internal most applications still require enough steel to make sure that the concrete beam cannot split. The last post tension I did was the most fun. We had to truncate to existing post tensioned beams to remove a portion of the building. The beams where about 250' long over about 10 supports. We removed about 50 feet. The Engineer I had designed an external tensioning system for the part we had to retain. A portion of the required tension was applied to the new system and an equal portion of the old cables were cut. Than more tension on the new cables and more cutting of the old. Back and forth. His #'s were so accurate that throughout there was less than 1/8 deflection in the beam. I know because I had glass curtain wall under a portion of the one beam and had no damage.


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08 Feb 2012 10:11 PM
Posted By FBBP on 08 Feb 2012 07:44 PM
Posted By jrobicheaux on 08 Feb 2012 07:03 PM

I believe you're describing a Pre Tensioning technique, Post Tensioning requires the steel be isolated from the concrete.  This is normally done by running the steel which is four or five times stronger than ordinary rebar through lubricated plastic tubes or Sabots.  After the concrete is fully cured the steel is placed in tension with the load transferred to the concrete through the end anchorages. 

In Pre Tensioning, steel is placed in tension before the concrete is poured and bonds to it.  After the concrete cures the tension on the steel is released and the resulting compressive load is passed to the concrete through the steel/concrete bond.   Pre Tensioning has to be done before the pour.  Once steel is bonded to concrete any attempt to pre load the concrete by tensioning the steel becomes a kind of "self licking lollipop".  I believe Pre Tensioning can only be done in a manufacturing context.

Post Tensioning for columns is an interesting technique that requires ultra high strength steel and concrete and some pretty sophisticated equipment.  It appears to be a niche product particularly suited to highly corrosive environments like salt water. 

This is a great discussion but for me, until concrete gets North of $500 a yard, I think I'll stick with steel of the right strength and size, in the right places and concrete of the appropriate strength in the quantities needed.

Jim 




Jim - I agree that that economics don't make sense for a column. Post tension can be done internally or externally. The trick is to make sure the tension is being applied to the project. If it is internal most applications still require enough steel to make sure that the concrete beam cannot split. The last post tension I did was the most fun. We had to truncate to existing post tensioned beams to remove a portion of the building. The beams where about 250' long over about 10 supports. We removed about 50 feet. The Engineer I had designed an external tensioning system for the part we had to retain. A portion of the required tension was applied to the new system and an equal portion of the old cables were cut. Than more tension on the new cables and more cutting of the old. Back and forth. His #'s were so accurate that throughout there was less than 1/8 deflection in the beam. I know because I had glass curtain wall under a portion of the one beam and had no damage.

Wow! building these things seems hard enough. Sectioning an existing stressed beam while still under its operational loading and preserving its integrity and function is most impressive.  An undamaged glass curtain wall is certainly the most impartial and unforgiving measure of the skill required.

Jim


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13 Feb 2012 10:17 AM
Jim,
Thanks so much for letting me stop by and see your build site! I am really excited about incorporating SCIP into my plans!
Catherine


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13 Feb 2012 12:28 PM

Jim,

Thanks from me too.  I really enjoyed meeting you and the architect/builder.  I learned a lot about the SCIP system and how to design for it.



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14 Feb 2012 06:29 PM
Contributors to this forum Alton and Catherine visited the site on Saturday 11 Feb.  It was rewarding to finally meet both of them in person.  I've posted an interim update to the blog at:

http://waterfrontbuildinginpanamacity.blogspot.com/

I'll be visiting the site tomorrow and Thursday so there will be an update.

Jim


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17 Feb 2012 10:19 AM
I can understand if you don't want to discuss pricing but what are the costs associated with this SCIP home?


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17 Feb 2012 10:47 AM
For the SCIP envelope alone; floors, walls, roof and beams, the finished cost work out to approximately $14/Ft ^2 of SCIP panel area.  Keep in mind this is influenced primarily by the cost of steel, secondarily by the cost of concrete and also by labor, and location particulars.

Not every project will have the same costs as mine.


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18 Feb 2012 12:43 AM
Posted By jrobicheaux on 17 Feb 2012 10:47 AM
For the SCIP envelope alone; floors, walls, roof and beams, the finished cost work out to approximately $14/Ft ^2 of SCIP panel area.  Keep in mind this is influenced primarily by the cost of steel, secondarily by the cost of concrete and also by labor, and location particulars.

Not every project will have the same costs as mine.

Are you saying that the cost of the panels, labor, shotcrete, etc., are $14 per square foot of wall space?




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18 Feb 2012 04:54 AM

Cost is so area dependant as I discussed with a western states rep today.

Costs are up to three times higher in Colorado than many southern states for most exterior work.



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18 Feb 2012 10:12 AM
Posted By Lbear on 18 Feb 2012 12:43 AM
Posted By jrobicheaux on 17 Feb 2012 10:47 AM
For the SCIP envelope alone; floors, walls, roof and beams, the finished cost work out to approximately $14/Ft ^2 of SCIP panel area.  Keep in mind this is influenced primarily by the cost of steel, secondarily by the cost of concrete and also by labor, and location particulars.

Not every project will have the same costs as mine.

Are you saying that the cost of the panels, labor, shotcrete, etc., are $14 per square foot of wall space?



Almost,  This is essentially a two story structure made almost entirely of SCIP elements.  My net cost for the SCIP envelope includes not only walls but floors on the first level, the roof and beams on both levels.  When the SCIP cost element in my "Schedule of Values" which is part of my Guaranteed Maximum Price agreement with the architect/builder is divided by the total area for all of this SCIP,  it works out to about $14/ft^2.  Of this about 1/3 is labor the rest is materials.

The SCIP cost element represents about 36% of the total costs of construction.


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22 Feb 2012 02:34 PM
I am a homeowner in Houston, Texas who has been looking into SCIPs for several years. Our original intention was to build a SCIP home in Arizona or Utah down the road, but we are now thinking that we might build a SCIP house right here in the Houston area. Early on in this topic there was a post from D. Stovall with "Building Energy Wise" that indicated he's been involved with SCIP installation in Texas, but he hasn't posted again since 2010. Does anyone here know of a professional with SCIP experience in Houston, or anywhere else in Texas? Thanks for your attention.


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22 Feb 2012 03:18 PM

Contact Gulf Concrete Technology in Long Beach, MS and ask them.  See http://gulfconcretechnology.com/  



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23 Feb 2012 10:04 AM
Thanks for that recommendation. I will get in touch with them to see if they have any suggestions.


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28 Feb 2012 10:19 PM
I install an R-90 completed wall materials and labor for under $8 per square foot with a higher quality finish inside and out. That system to double code I can do for about $5 per foot. $14 per square foot for about code performance is a very high costs. My system is also greener,  more sustainable, more locally sourced, system does not require highly skilled labor, is carbon neutral, can support green walls as an alternative, and are Superior or equal mechanical.

SCIPs have thermal bridging through the wire that goes through the foam. This is a significant issue. I have not seen an inexpensive source for the raw panels. Generally shot-crete is expensive. Very few local crafts people and specialized skills are needed. Most shot-crete is for pools and tunnel work. That work is high dollar which artificially raises the cost. If your contractor has his own shot-crete machine and is skilled then it is a viable option. The final outcome is that SCIPs are expensive to make happen. Better methods exist that perform better, cost less and require fewer specialized workers.

Typical wire reinforced SCIPs by code require 1.5 inches of concrete over the metal for corrosion issues. I have built foam with surface bond cement which is more economical. You can use a surface bond layer 1/2 inch thick. Hand applied that is a lot less material. You can also use basalt reinforcing mesh to replace the metal support material. It is stronger, lower in cost, and inert.

Tilt up is a cheaper and easier method to use if you want concrete walls. Several earthen based systems out perform all the systems at reduced cost.

Why SCIPs? Is there someone out there that has built with them and a reduced overall cost? My experience is they were not less costly. They work but have issues.

Brian


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29 Feb 2012 02:25 AM

 SCIPs have thermal bridging through the wire that goes through the foam. This is a significant issue.

Is It?
 
Any data to refute Oak Ridge National Laboratories study of sixteen wall different wall configurations study?

The house I built temperature is still in the mid 60s as of December 1/2011 with the heat set a t 55 to 60 depending on the daily construction traffic.
I will be taking thermal imaging pictures of energy efficient home in the Denver boulder area where is you system.
I will be taking pictures of several SCIP structures as well as other systems.
I have wondered how much thermal bridging exist, with the system compared to other systems.
As for Shot crete other trades can give a better finish for less, hand applied and gun applied.



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29 Feb 2012 04:20 AM
When I review the Advanced Wall Systems section at ORNL the system that looks like a SCIP type wall with metal connectors is reported as an R-8.5 whole wall as I read it. The ICF wall tested in the hot box at R-30.1.

This is better than a standard wall but not that impressive.

I do not have personal data on the amount of bridging. I simply know that a web of metal rods between to thermal conductor layers on 6 inch centers will move energy. Example a potato will cook twice as fast with a single nail down the middle of it. The SCIP wall will perform well compared to a standard wall system. It will have no air infiltration and a total R-value that is reasonable.

A passive house will require an additional thermal blocking for the bridging and a significant amount more insulation.

What method do you recomend for applying the 2 inches of concrete? We ended up hand rendering which was labor intensive. I had a customer in Park City Utah that wanted to use the system. We did a small service building with the system and decided other systems would work better for the rest of the project. The little building was air tight, bullet proof and warmed by a diesel generator that it housed. We had heard good things and marketing hype so we did a very small project to check it out. We were not happy with the performance of the SCIP system we used.

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01 Mar 2012 03:09 AM
Posted By zehboss on 29 Feb 2012 04:20 AM
  We were not happy with the performance of the SCIP system we used.

Brian

Performance meaning R-Value or the thermal bridging?


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01 Mar 2012 06:54 AM
Lbear,

We simply have alternatives that deliver higher R-value for lower cost. My issue is always cost/performance.
Small thermal bridges dramatically reduce whole wall performance. With 1/50th of the area as a high conductive material in the ORNL example it took R-20, 4 inches of polystyrene in the wall down to R-8 whole wall. That sounds like a significant amount of thermal bridging to me. Why pay for all the foam and then bypass it. Further I can build an R-100 wall for less cost, $14/s.f. does not pencil for me. I bet they do not charge that much in Mexico.

Brian


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01 Mar 2012 08:36 PM
Posted By zehboss on 01 Mar 2012 06:54 AM
Lbear,

We simply have alternatives that deliver higher R-value for lower cost. My issue is always cost/performance.
Small thermal bridges dramatically reduce whole wall performance. With 1/50th of the area as a high conductive material in the ORNL example it took R-20, 4 inches of polystyrene in the wall down to R-8 whole wall. That sounds like a significant amount of thermal bridging to me. Why pay for all the foam and then bypass it. Further I can build an R-100 wall for less cost, $14/s.f. does not pencil for me. I bet they do not charge that much in Mexico.

Brian

So if I am following this correctly. With SCIP, the metal reinforcing trusses that are in the EPS foam create a lot of thermal bridging? Was it the SCIP wall that dropped from R-20 to R-8?




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01 Mar 2012 09:36 PM
This is the link to the results at the ornl. Note that they call it Concrete Panel With Metal Connectors and a foam core.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs%2Bwalls/AWT/HotboxTest/PCP/MetalConnect/index.htm

Manufactures claim of R-20 actual R-8

I did not spend a lot time looking at the results because they did not impress me.

Brian


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01 Mar 2012 11:48 PM
Posted By zehboss on 01 Mar 2012 09:36 PM
This is the link to the results at the ornl. Note that they call it Concrete Panel With Metal Connectors and a foam core.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs%2Bwalls/AWT/HotboxTest/PCP/MetalConnect/index.htm

Manufactures claim of R-20 actual R-8

I did not spend a lot time looking at the results because they did not impress me.

Brian

Wow, that is pretty surprising and disappointing to see SCIPs perform so badly in the R-Value department.

After reviewing the ORNL report I can see how this is happening. Since concrete has a horrible R-Value to it, and SCIP's have a lot of thermal bridging due to metal clips and trusses throughout the form. The 3" of concrete on both sides has the metal trusses that sits in the concrete on both sides and creates a perfect thermal bridge for the metal from the outside to the inside.

While it can be argued that SCIPs have better "thermal mass" properties over ICF due to the concrete being exposed on the inside, the down side is that SCIPs have horrid R-Values due to the extreme thermal bridging of the metal forms. The metal forms sit in the concrete on the outside and create the thermal bridge through the EPS and then onto the inside/interior of the concrete.

It would be like taking a metal rod, running it through an EPS form and exposing the metal rod to the outside. The metal rod will transmit the cold or heat right through the rod to the other side of the rod. The EPS does nothing because the metal rod is a solid continual piece. The thermal bridging of a metal SCIP would be much worse than wood framing. 

I believe that the SCIP industry likes to sweep this "issue" under the rug. Thanks for pointing this report out, I would have never thought of the extreme thermal bridging but now it makes sense because of how the metal sits in the shotcrete on both sides creating a perfect thermal bridge.






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02 Mar 2012 01:58 AM
Lbear,

I have built DIY panels where I threaded poly strapping material through 12 inches of polystyrene holding the grids together. I also used basalt rebar on both sides. This reduced the thickness of needed concrete to 1 inch on both sides and an R-60 wall. The foam bought in bulk Geofoam was only $3.50 per cubic foot. We bought 3 semis of foam to make minimum price break for the foam. The system worked pretty well though there were 12000+ ties to put it all together. The rebar assembly was a lot more work than I thought it would be. A crew of two could do it.

Brian


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02 Mar 2012 08:51 AM
If the wire trusses in SCIPs do create too many thermal bridges to the exterior, then another solution to this problem might be to add foam boards to the exterior over the shotcrete and then stucco the foam boards.  I know this would be another step and added cost but the advantages of using SCIPs might outweigh the extra costs.

Maybe it is time for people that have SCIP homes to post their energy bills.  Energywise, I would love to compare SCIP homes to conventionally built homes.  This could validate the testing in laboratories.


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02 Mar 2012 12:39 PM
A little different system but has the metal embedded in the eps.

http://gigacrete.com/wp-content/upl...11-ppt.pdf

I am fascinated that one coat of stuccomax is all thats needed directly on the eps panels.


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02 Mar 2012 12:49 PM
It might not occur to a nice guy like you, Alton, but Lbear could well be an ICF industry insider whose job it is to undermine competing technologies in a nonthreatening way. For what's it worth I think you are on the right track. Just add Michael Dell's mass customization tech to sip panels, climb the learning curve in the field and you have a stronger, more efficient AND less expensive house than stick built. The fearless defenders of the status quo in the Sip thread hooted at my Dell reference a year or two back, but here is a website that turns Google Sketchup designs into numeric control instructions (executed in plywood and shed level so far.). www.wikihouse.cc

But don't forget finish. At some point custom home buyers will spend their money on artisan work rather than square footage, and bankers will lend money to them to do so. Yes, indeed, the house as a $12 six pack of beer, or for teetotalers, a $5 loaf of rustic Tuscan.


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02 Mar 2012 03:07 PM
Posted By toddm on 02 Mar 2012 12:49 PM
It might not occur to a nice guy like you, Alton, but Lbear could well be an ICF industry insider whose job it is to undermine competing technologies in a nonthreatening way. For what's it worth I think you are on the right track. Just add Michael Dell's mass customization tech to sip panels, climb the learning curve in the field and you have a stronger, more efficient AND less expensive house than stick built. The fearless defenders of the status quo in the Sip thread hooted at my Dell reference a year or two back, but here is a website that turns Google Sketchup designs into numeric control instructions (executed in plywood and shed level so far.). www.wikihouse.cc

But don't forget finish. At some point custom home buyers will spend their money on artisan work rather than square footage, and bankers will lend money to them to do so. Yes, indeed, the house as a $12 six pack of beer, or for teetotalers, a $5 loaf of rustic Tuscan.

Unbelievable, is this where you want to go? Personal attacks? It can be said that you, Toddm, are a lumber and AAC insider whose sole purpose is to undermine ICF. Or maybe you are a disgruntled home builder who has an axe to grind because you got a bad contractor to stack your ICF basement.

I am simply asking questions and trying to get down to the truth of what works and how much it costs. I know one thing, I got numerous quotes, both in wood frame, ICF and even SCIP. Here is the truth of it; wood frame is the lowest priced, ICF came in at $10-$11 per sqft of wall space and SCIP came in the most expensive at $17-$18 per sqft of wall space.

Each technology has its pros and cons and wood, ICF, along with SCIP, are no exception. An ICF industry insider I am not. If you go back and read my other threads, I was VERY critical of ICF and some of its claims. I am undermining nothing. SCIP is not the end all technology. ORNL shows that SCIP suffers from severe thermal bridging due to the metal wire trusses that are connected and exposed to the exterior and transmit to the interior. It's pretty simple to understand, even for a guy like me. Metal rebar sitting in 2" of concrete that is exposed to the exterior will thermal bridge to the interior. The EPS foam does nothing to stop the thermal bridging in the metal to the interior. Just like wood frame, even worse because at least wood provides some R-Value to it, the metal thermal bridging in SCIP is pretty simple to understand.

Toddm, I like your input here on the forum but please stop with this personal stuff because it's plain stupid.

 


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02 Mar 2012 04:01 PM

((When I review the Advanced Wall Systems section at ORNL the system that looks like a SCIP type wall with metal connectors is reported as an R-8.5 whole wall as I read it. The ICF wall tested in the hot box at R-30.1. ))

Google search for Advance Wall Systems

Home Owners, divider, Benefits, divider, Home Builders. divider. Home Thumbnail. Are you a home builder looking for a reliable source for ICF construction?

Truth in advertizing ???

I am really busy closing loose ends and lining up things before I take a coastal trip looking at SCIP homes.

I hope to get the thermal imaging of The Highland Home done before I leave.

If SCIP systems have anywhere near the thermal bridging claimed below it will show up like a sore thumb.

I am also hoping to get the past three months utility bills for the Highland SCIP home so I can post them.

They will not reflect actual living example as the home was still under construction.
I am not sure how general construction electrical usage compares with living use but I would guess someone here does.

With my avatar name its clear what side of the bed I sleep on ;)
Richard Sims, Centennial, Colorado



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02 Mar 2012 04:53 PM
Nothing personal lbear. Just according the ICF industry all the respect and trust it has earned.


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03 Mar 2012 01:00 AM
Posted By toddm on 02 Mar 2012 04:53 PM
Nothing personal lbear. Just according the ICF industry all the respect and trust it has earned.

The ICF industry, the SIP industry, the wood frame industry, the SCIP industry, etc., they all have horror stories and they all broke peoples trust and respect in some shape or form.

There is no manufacturing technique that is infallible.

Just look at the tornado's that destroyed homes today, the wood frame industry reps will walk right in those communities and tell them to rebuild with wood again. Lives were lost and will be lost again in the future due to wood frame homes in tornado alley and the wood frame industry knows this but they don't care. It's all about money $$$, it always comes down to $$$.








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04 Mar 2012 09:11 PM
I couldn't click on Brian's link but the ornl test he appears to be referencing is a system with 2 inch foam core, am I right?


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04 Mar 2012 09:11 PM
I couldn't click on Brian's link but the ornl test he appears to be referencing is a system with 2 inch foam core, am I right?


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04 Mar 2012 10:13 PM
Posted By cathsand on 04 Mar 2012 09:11 PM
I couldn't click on Brian's link but the ornl test he appears to be referencing is a system with 2 inch foam core, am I right?

Clicking on the link will not work since it was not entered as a link.  You will have to copy the link and then paste it into your browser.

Yes, the ORNL test was conducted on 2" of extruded polystyrene (XPS as opposed to EPS) with 3" of concrete on both sides.  The point was made that the reduction in R-value resulted from all of the steel connectors through the 2" of extruded polystyrene.  (Two inches of foam board is the thinnest that most installers would recommend for shotcreting.  Thinner foam could be destroyed by too much pressure during shotcreting.)  In other words, it does not matter how thick the foam is if the steel connectors that tie the two concrete wythes together conducts too much energy.  Think of this as aluminum fins on a copper heat exchanger like a car radiator.

If this is true for the shotcrete panels being used today, then it appears to me that it might be best to go with two inches of foam in the middle to stop the shotcrete from going through and then add 2" of foam board to the exterior after shotcreting and then stucco over the outer foam board.  That would insulate the steel connectors.  Another aproach would be to use connectors that do not conduct which some precast companies recently started doing. 


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04 Mar 2012 11:07 PM
Posted By Alton on 04 Mar 2012 10:13 PM

Clicking on the link will not work since it was not entered as a link.  You will have to copy the link and then paste it into your browser.

Yes, the ORNL test was conducted on 2" of extruded polystyrene (XPS as opposed to EPS) with 3" of concrete on both sides.  The point was made that the reduction in R-value resulted from all of the steel connectors through the 2" of extruded polystyrene.  (Two inches of foam board is the thinnest that most installers would recommend for shotcreting.  Thinner foam could be destroyed by too much pressure during shotcreting.)  In other words, it does not matter how thick the foam is if the steel connectors that tie the two concrete wythes together conducts too much energy.  Think of this as aluminum fins on a copper heat exchanger like a car radiator.

If this is true for the shotcrete panels being used today, then it appears to me that it might be best to go with two inches of foam in the middle to stop the shotcrete from going through and then add 2" of foam board to the exterior after shotcreting and then stucco over the outer foam board.  That would insulate the steel connectors.  Another aproach would be to use connectors that do not conduct which some precast companies recently started doing. 

Alton, remember this thermal bridging issue was also a problem with some earlier ICFs. The forms had metal ties instead of the current plastic ties and there was a lot of thermal bridging going on with those forms. Now ICFs utilize plastic ties/connectors which eliminate the thermal bridging.

With the ORNL testing, as you mentioned, it was not the XPS that caused the drop in R-Value in SCIP, it was the thermal bridging of the metal trusses. I can see WHY manufacturers use the metal trusses, as this provides superior strength as it ties the 2 sides of the shotcrete and creates a monolithic unit. Unfortunately, this area of strength creates a thermal bridge issue. I don't think utilizing plastic truss connectors would provide enough strength in a SCIP, as there is no real strength in those connectors. Steel rebar is a necessary element in any concrete form to get proper strength, whether SCIP or ICF.




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05 Mar 2012 12:27 AM
OK guys when did 2" EPS rate R20?  I want some of that foam.

Sounds like a study of a bogas panel made to test poorly.

My 9" foam walls would almost a true R90 at that rate.






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05 Mar 2012 12:29 AM
Using metal for the trusses is probably the least costly material to use although metal will conduct readily.  

Either non-conductive fiber composites or epoxy-coated carbon fiber trusses would be strong enough to tie the wythes of concrete together but will cost more than wire trusses.  Some companies are already using this type of material to hold the components together.  See Thermomass and Altus Precast (Carboncast).


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05 Mar 2012 06:37 AM
Most of the manufacturers make elevated R-value claims. Wood framed walls do not perform to the in cavity fill. The Foam in the panel is probably about R-10, The Manufacturer clamed R-20 equivalent to meet code. Equivalent means hype. 20 percent of the in cavity was lost to thermal bridging, this is not a surprise. It is not a high performance system as claimed and already cost too much. No system that costs more than $10 per foot of wall is a good deal. It is an expensive way to build a house. The economics of the system do not make financial sense. ICFs are cheaper, better and also already too expensive. The question is how to get the cost / performance equation cut in half. My new system delivers 7 to 10 times the R-Value for under $10 per foot of wall installed. I do not want to consider systems that deliver less than that cost/performance as an option. $10/R-80, or 12.5 cents per R-1. I do not see anything else close to that performance. This means a totally passive heated and cooled house can be built for no additional cost over standard construction. Passive annual thermal averaging that works in a building that looks reasonable. It is a matter of adoption of method and materials. It is not based on science that is not ready. Understanding how it works is all it takes.

I am not interested in building standard houses cheaper. They are energy hogs and do not lead to a brighter future for anyone. I build zero energy homes at a lower cost than a standard home. This is where we all need to and should want to go. Utility elimination enriches everyone. The owner spends $100,000s less over a life time on utilities. We do not have to build additional power plants and distribution systems which cost us trillions of dollars. You are no longer relying on the grid. You are comfortable no matter what happens to society, the grid, the oil supply, and world issues. Energy cost escalation no longer matters or affects the owner. What do all these benefits cost? Absolutely nothing. All that is required is doing things based on common sense and potential buyers expecting the benefits they should be receiving.


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05 Mar 2012 06:46 AM
Brian,
What is your system?


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05 Mar 2012 06:52 AM
What about using basalt trusses? Would that be feasible?


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05 Mar 2012 09:20 AM
Brian, [zehboss]

I've gone through this thread and can't find a technical description of the system you are advocating.  It seems to good to be true, do you mind giving us some details particularly structural details.

Jim


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05 Mar 2012 06:46 PM
The ornl study Zehboss is linking is almost surely the TMass wall system developed by Dow, The complete study is here: http://www.thermomass.com/files/thermomass_ornl_doe_thermal_performance_kosny.pdf

Two inches of XPS is a nominal R10 so the thermal bridging reported by Ornl isn't as dreadful as Zehboss makes it seem. The R20 is one of the DBMS adjusted Rvalues for the six climates Ornl models in DOE2. IIRC, TMass claims a mass-enhanced R35 in Phoenix. For Zehboss to embrace thermal mass and then dismiss efforts to quantify it as "hype" requires some pretty fancy intellectual gymnastics.


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05 Mar 2012 09:42 PM
Diurnal averaging is not R-value because it only has value in specific climates, or for part of the season. On the other hand if you are averaging the energy balance over months, quarters or a year then you are accomplishing something very different, natural internal temperature at the deep earth temperature with no thermal input. Additional solar input or night time cooling can adjust the temperature as desired.

We use a hybrid of many techniques I have learned over the last 30 plus years. One method I favor is gabions, (a wire basket that is structural when filled of contained ballast), which is sided in and out with insulation and desired surfacing material you can obtain the mass and insulation values desired at a very low cost.

A gabion based wall normally does not require a separate foundation. It can be filled with pearlite, pumice, earth, sand, modified earth,(added cement), rammed earth, gravel, road base, concrete, etc. depending on what properties you want to achieve. You can put top soil in a separate 3 to 6 inch surface layer allowing a live wall. You can surface with a material that cost $1 per square foot that will last 100 years in that application with no maintenance.



Gabions are normally used in civil engineering applications. The established engineering of the structure is already complete and standardized. This is simply a repurposing of standard proven materials to a new application.

Filled with poured in foam and you get an onsite built SIP that is up to R-8 per inch of any dimension desired at much lower costs than purchased panels. The foam purchased in 55 gallon drums is 50 cents per board foot. This is about 16 cents per R-1 per square foot of wall.

You can use different densities of foam to have different structural properties. High insulating soils and pumice have R-values up to 2.5 per inch at a cost of 3 cents per board foot. This is about 1.2 cents per R-1 per square foot of wall.

Filled with a moderator a couple feet thick which for all intensive purposes thermally isolates the insulation layers in analysis making them act as separate independent insulation layers. R-10 outside, R-10 inside performs as R-100ish. This is because you establish two separate relatively stable smaller Delta Ts across the insulation layers.

You can use thermal solar to heat the center of the mass in the wall to further adjust the btus of thermal storage and to control the delta Ts in the system.

I use poly strapping for the center cross supports. This eliminates thermal bridging in the systems. Depending of the size, rating, quantity and placement you can achieve any desired shear ability and meet any earthquake zone desired.

So all this and some additional variables not mentioned gives me flexibility.

I can make a metal on metal SIP rated at R-100 that is 14 inches thick custom shaped to any house for $9 per spuare foot material cost and $11 per square foot installed cost. This method requires a post and beam structure and a foundation.

Or, I can make a 4 foot thick wall with natural material fill insulated in and out with thermal reservoir capable of heating and cooling in any environment for $10 per foot installed, no need for support structure and a separate foundation.

I can show you a specific example illustration of any one of these embodiments but it is not that simple. I can do so many things with the accumulation of the techniques. All deliver lower cost and higher performance over any available off the shelf system I know of. My designs and builds are not limited by standard products. The shape of the below house is done without excess costs. No other system I know of can do this easily.



The other big benefit is I can pull up to a site with 4-55 gallon drums, a coil of siding material, a trailer of tools and a truck, have a load delivered from Home Depot and can build a home short doors and windows.

My overhead is lower, my flexibility is higher, my build time is faster, my labor content is lower, my quality is better, the energy efficiency is higher and my cost are lower than any system available to my knowledge.

It is not simple to explain it all but, it works.

Brian


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05 Mar 2012 10:54 PM
Um, Zehboss, unless you mean diurnal averaging we do not exist on the same plane, so to speak. And while mass effect is indeed seasonal and climate specific, the point of ORNL's testing and modeling is to provide a multiplier adjusting nominal R value to an annual-average mass-enhanced R value and allowing apples to apples comparison with conventional insulation. You'd know this if you had time to read studies on the Ornl site.


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06 Mar 2012 12:28 AM
Thanks for pointing out the spell checker brain slip, I corrected it. It has little to do with the topic or the information. My point is that the adjustment is only valid in specific situations. It does not work in a continuously cold or hot time frame environment. Averaging temperatures over only a day often does not help much. It has almost no benefit in Alaska. It works great in the high desserts like Phoenix. As the time frame increases the power of the averaging applies to a much broader set of circumstances and provides larger benefits. Lots of manufactures claim an effective R-Value. This has very little value unless you have the just right environment. They seldom take the time to explain where it applies. They make it a buyer beware environment. I have found this particularly true about log home, adobe home and ICF manufacturers.

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06 Mar 2012 08:19 AM
Gotta agree that sales people can say anything. But if mass effect claims can't be believed, even when they come with ORNL charts, why should we believe yours?


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06 Mar 2012 10:41 PM
ORNL claims are correct. In order to understand and use them it requires additional understanding of where the numbers apply. Several examples of high mass houses exist that work but do not have mass appeal. Earthships, PAHS, AGS and others. It works. Secondly I am not selling a product. I am promoting a non product. Knowledge that will improve your bottom line and the bottom line of your clients. It will also reduce the amount of wasted energy and intern reduce the pollution in the world. I would hope all people believe in win win outcomes where everyone benefits.No one is hurt and everyone gains accept the standardized manufacturer and packager.

The other thing is it is all based on engineering and FEA modeling. Physics and thermodynamics do not change and simply express truths. You can choose to believe or not but it is not anecdotal. It is also easy to understand if you take a couple of hours studying how it works. Feel free to call me if you have additional questions. The principles are not new only the packaging. Do you believe in Passive House designs? It is also based on engineering calculations. Though they generally do not get into super high thermal mass. If you know how to make the calculations you can prove it to yourself.

The question has always been how can you get high mass inside the envelope at a low cost? I am just answering the question.

Brian
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06 Mar 2012 10:48 PM
Posted By zehboss on 06 Mar 2012 10:41 PM
ORNL claims are correct. In order to understand and use them it requires additional understanding of where the numbers apply. Several examples of high mass houses exist that work but do not have mass appeal. Earthships, PAHS, AGS and others. It works. Secondly I am not selling a product. I am promoting a non product. Knowledge that will improve your bottom line and the bottom line of your clients. It will also reduce the amount of wasted energy and intern reduce the pollution in the world. I would hope all people believe in win win outcomes where everyone benefits.No one is hurt and everyone gains accept the standardized manufacturer and packager.

The other thing is it is all based on engineering and FEA modeling. Physics and thermodynamics do not change and simply express truths. You can choose to believe or not but it is not anecdotal. It is also easy to understand if you take a couple of hours studying how it works. Feel free to call me if you have additional questions. The principles are not new only the packaging. Do you believe in Passive House designs? It is also based on engineering calculations. Though they generally do not get into super high thermal mass. If you know how to make the calculations you can prove it to yourself.

The question has always been how can you get high mass inside the envelope at a low cost? I am just answering the question.

Brian
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So what is your view/opinion on ICF homes (2x5" EPS x 6" concrete x 2.5" EPS)?




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07 Mar 2012 05:14 AM
lbear,

ICFs are far superior to standard stick built homes. The ICF manufacturer’s products I have priced have always been relatively expensive. I have worked with several customers that decided on ICFs. They assembled easily and worked well. Finished walls were fairly expensive.

I built DIY ICFs that were a lot cheaper. Geo foam in 16 foot blocks bought in bulk were pretty cheap. They were easy to cut with a hot wire, hot knife and chain saw. We used 6 inches in and out 12 inch by 16 foot pieces. Groove one inch from surface fit metal flashing in slots for screwing to the surface. We punched holes in center of flashing. Wire aligned to the center of the hole. I strapped between the layers with poly strapping. This allowed adjustable cavity and wall insulation depths. This method was easy to build. It delivered double the insulation value wall for the same price. I did it in quantities for a single house. I assume the manufactures gets better pricing then little old me doing a house at a time. 100% markup over material costs seems high to me when I can make them on site for the material costs and a little labor.

Figuring out corner bracing took a little playing around. But the DIY system delivered twice the performance for the same price. I later built a DIY post and beam system with surface bond cement on the surfaces. It worked well but still too expensive. All that concrete in the wall was too expensive with the ICF.

I then went to a thicker internal wall and just ballast fill. That led me to Gabions filled with ballast and surfaced which is where I am now. The wall performance keeps increasing while the cost keeps reducing.

An 8 inch concrete wall requires rebar and 3000 psi concrete that is not cheap. A four foot ballast wall is cheaper and much higher in mass. The fill only needs to be 75 psi for structural and no internal rebar. This type of fill is 5 to 14 dollars a yard while concrete is 100ish a yard.

The concrete wall further requires a separate foundation poured on a separate day and cured. The ballast wall normally does not need separate footings. Ballast wall does not require curing time. Fill, vibrate, fill, and vibrate, until done with no down time. This is the highest performance/cost wall system I have developed. It beats all other systems with the same performance by a factor of 2 or more that I have found. It allows you to build a passive heated and cooled home at no additional cost.

Brian


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07 Mar 2012 05:40 AM
Brian,

Are the Gabions filled, tamped and then set between metal skins that define the wall or are the empty Gabions set between the metal skins and then filled and tamped?  Which ever way the Gabions are used, do they keep the pressure off of the thin metal skins.  I guess I am somewhat concerned that the thick walls may push the metal skins out to create a bump unless a lot of bracing is installed on both sides of the wall.  Since I had not heard of Gabions before you mentioned it, I know nothing about the way they are used.


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07 Mar 2012 09:22 AM
To the contrary Zehboss, the product you are selling is Zehboss, and you share the penchant on this site for attacking competing offerings. But I am content that you accept ORNL's mass work, and by inference, the TMass system as a good solution for the high desert in Arizona. (TMass is far superior to ICF, LBear, because of its ability to buffer passive solar.) My apologies for the diurnal/dihedral business. I see you are fighting an intuitive keyboard.

I share your focus on DIY and natural materials. If I were younger and stronger, I'd be building the way they did 250 years ago in Pa.: masonry walls filled with rubble, with XPS sheathing tossed in. Your approach is a clever adaptation of gabions, but there are many ways to go native, and legacy construction will always be more saleable. Adobe houses fetch a premium in Santa Fe.


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07 Mar 2012 07:29 PM
Toddm,

Sure, I am trying to convince people to adopt a philosopy of cost performance optimazation, utility elimination, natural local material uses, passive heating and cooling, healthier environment for living, reduced polution, lower embodied energy, thinking out or the box and all things that improve the clients quality of life.

I am convinced that there are better ways to build than buying standardized, packaged, and heavily processed materials. If that is attacking, I am guilty. I normally disagree based on cost for performance, physics, thermodynamics and engineering. No hype or BS.

If you clay render a gabion system it looks like thick adobe at a lower costs.

Brian


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07 Mar 2012 07:59 PM
Alton,

You can make a box and pre fill the gabions and place them with a crane and surface. Or, you can attach OSB to the outside fill, remove OSB and surface. Or you can hold metal in place with industrial tape, spray insulate inside to attach to wire hold in place with banding fill compact and repeat.

I have surfaced inside with cabinet grade plywood, OSB, drywall, 1x12s, plaster, clay render, cob, stucco, and furring strips with netting. I have also added an additional layer on the surface and created live walls.
The rate of fill depends on the type and size of fill. You do have to cross brace every 6 to twelve inches and check level and plumb continuously. Care needs to be taken to deliver a good job just as in any other method of construction.

You can also buy heavy duty Gabions that can be filled without concern. But, I DIY the gabions using welded wire fence material and poly strapping because it is less expensive but requires more care when filling and compacting.

It adds an additional interest to the project because it gives you many normally high end options you can do inexpensively. You can also build any curved wall at no additional cost which is unheard of in normal building methods. In fact the curved walls are also stronger and more aerodynamic. The more I play with it the more I like it. It delivers on so many levels.

There is a lot of information online using Gabions for retaining walls. Check it out and start thinking and dreaming about the possibilities. They are end less.

Brian



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08 Mar 2012 12:06 PM
zehboss/Brian, you may have mentioned this before, but in what area are you building at the moment? For some reason I'm thinking Arizona, but I'm not at all sure I've got that right.


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09 Mar 2012 10:56 AM
This exchange regarding Zehboss' ideas has been interesting.  It has also been less cordial than I prefer especially some of the replies sent in Zehboss' direction.  Zehboss appears to have a pretty good grasp of the first and second laws of thermodynamics based on his comments about R values and how they are not well understood.  I think his ideas have merit, but I think a great deal has been left unsaid.  So I have a few comments; more like questions actually and all are asked with respect.

The proposition as I understand it is that you can build a thermally massive wall structure out of relatively inexpensive materials using relatively less labor than SCIP, SIP or ICF.  This wall system will have very high R values.  My questions are:

The structural components of the Gabions would seem to make them self limiting in the vertical.   How high could I build a 4 ft thick Gabion wall before the hoop stresses at the bottom exceed the strength of the relatively weak structural materials used to hold the wall in column?  The answer should vary with the density of the "filler" material selected but there has to be a limit beyond which expensive steel or other high strength materials have to be brought into the design.  The walls in the SCIP home I have under construction now are 38 ft high.  Would Gabions have been an option?

Walls must not only support themselves but normally have to support a roof.  In my case a floor and a roof. What are the load paths for the roof to the foundation through the Gabions?  If the only structural members are the skins how are they held in column while transferring this load.  If the load path is through the wall filler, how are roof moments transferred?

Speaking of roofs, I'm going to make the assumption the Gabions aren't useable in roofs so something more conventional goes into the design.  At what point does an R-100 wall get overwhelmed by an R-30 or so roof?  Put another way If R's cost $'s at what point do I stop adding R value to the walls and start upgrading the roof?.  I believe answer would be geometry and $/R dependent

Windows are gaping holes in any energy efficient design but my wife insists we have them.  How functional are windows in 4 ft thick walls? 

I'm building in a coastal zone that requires a design resist 130 mph winds.  My engineers structural report shows I have wind resistance up to 150 mph.  The roof requires no special hurricane straps as its weight exceeds the maximum uplift forces for the design wind load.  How do Gabions meet wind load requirements?

Is this system in any State building code?  If not how did you find a structural engineer to sign the drawings so you could get a building permit from the local building authority?

Lastly, if it is at all possible, I'd love to see  a picture of one of these Gabion structures.

Jim




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09 Mar 2012 12:21 PM
I am also of the opinion that posters to this forum should be more professional in their disagreements.  It is okay to disagree with anyone about anything but it should be done in such a way that it does not stifle learning.  What we all need to keep in mind is that more people than the posters read these forums.  At times, I am afraid that some postings can discourage learning from this medium.

Jim, great questions for Brian.  I love the detailed, respectful way you asked the questions.  I think that Brian will respect anyone that wants to learn by questioning the assumptions.  I await Brians answers because I, too, am interested in learning more about using Gabions and saving energy.

Forgive me for looking at learning as a teacher would do so.  I retired from teaching but still want to learn.


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10 Mar 2012 04:45 AM
Jim,

Heights of Gabion projects that I know of have exceeded 40 feet. I have not built in my projects above 20 feet in height to date with Gabions. My equipment for lifting the materials on site has limited fill to that height. I have used low mass wall systems above that point. Typically foam filled site built metal surfaced SIPs. General rule of thumb is 1 foot in width for every four feet in height of wall for a straight wall with compacted 3/4 minus fill and no binder. If you mix cement 5 to 10 percent then you can go higher or thinner. Core samples of the final mix needs to be tested to determine strength when going beyond rule of thumb sizing. Curved wall sections can go higher with higher height to width ratios. There are too many variables to give specific advice that might be used incorrectly beyond that without engineering calculations being done for the specific applications.

This is a 40 foot plus tall retaining wall in a commercial application. It is holding back earth, moisture, drainage, with a parking lot and building atop. Home applications are dramatically less demanding. Gabion systems provide a much larger safety factor.

Normally at the floor transition a bond beam is poured in the wall. Reinforcing strapping is placed on 6 inch to 12 inch lift points in the wall depending on system engineering and wall contours. The wall extending above the first story is 3 feet thick. The created ledge is the ledger for the second story floor.

Obviously the roof system needs to be thermal bridge free, well-sealed and well insulated. A standard drop heel truss with an isolated drop cord with a 30 inch fill space for cellulose will deliver R-113 at a low cost. Floor with OSB to handle cellulose weight, spray caulk all seams. This type of truss only costs a couple hundred extra last time I ordered them and the cellulose was about $1 per cubic foot. That is $3 per square foot of attic outline, or $1.50 per foot for a two story home. Blown in labor was one extra day of labor. This is the least expensive upgrade you can add to any home design period. 40% of the energy lost through the standard code home is lost through the ceiling. This upgrade will improve the overall efficiency of the standard home by 39% by itself.

I have also built an arched metal surfaced SIP filled with 14 inches of 2 # polyurethane for similar thermal performance. That system cost less than $20 per square foot provided R-100 insulation, roof surface and internal surface complete.

Windows are stunning with thick walls. I usually flare the side of the windows with a quarter round and have a beautiful window seat below the window. Obviously good windows make a big difference. In a high mass design you can compensate with additional mass if you do not buy super windows. Here again it is a trade off. Thermally R-2 window will need 20 plus cubic feet of added internal thermal mass. R-20 window needs 3ish feet. There is a relationship between the amounts of mass vs. the amount of insulation in all external membranes in the home. The chart below shows that relationship for a specific climate. The graph is part of the engineering for a project to determine the amount of insulation and mass based on yearly thermal needs, insolation, HDD, CDD, wind exposure, ACH 50 value, HRV ventilation, deep earth temperature, rain fall, and other factors.
 
This chart was prepared for a specific job and climate. Due not try to use it for your job. It is not that simple. The chart is different in Alaska vs. Florida. It is climate and sight specific.
 
Obviously wind loading depends on the roof system used. The maximum retention is 4000 #s per foot of roof perimeter retention which is obviously more than any wind loading will require.

Gabions are in the civil sections for retaining wall, bridge support, dam construction, river diversion, earth retention, slope stabilization, all much more demanding applications. The safety factor as I have explained the application is many times any standard home design. Gabion engineering is very common and long established for these other applications which require far higher load carrying capacities.

A PE will need to sign for each state. But all the calculations, standards, and analysis will already be provided for the system so their job is only to confirm the analysis and references. You can usually find a PE with civil and structural back ground that you can work with on the job that will sign. It should be less than a $1000 for the stamp assuming you stay within the guidelines already established. Obviously if you design a home with more demanding applications then established the additional engineering cost will be more.

I will attach some pictures of Gabions in use. I think I have answered all the questions you have asked and have tried to be as open as possible with information. I hope all understand I am trying to be as helpful as possible. I am promoting responsible use of materials in a cost effective sustainable manner. I have been at this endeavor a long time and am trying to help individuals to improve the home owner’s quality of life. I am currently writing a book explaining all of this which is more involved. I am helping a number of individuals with designs at this time. My parents got ill a few years ago so I stopped building to help them as they passed away. They have now moved on and I am starting to gear up the authoring, engineering, design and construction work again. I thought I should try to finish the book before I get deluged with work again.

This is a concept drawing to understand what can be done.                    This is an apartment building using Gabions.

The system will not let me attach additional pictures. I assume I must of reached the limit so I shall stop here. I hope everyone can see that this is a viable low cost high performance option that is very adaptable.

Brian



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10 Mar 2012 07:50 AM
Earlier in this thread, SCIP Panel was reaching for his infrared camera to see if R20 could be reduced to R8.5 by thermal bridging, as zehboss claimed. You prefer that readers would find misinformation here Alton? To me this site seems less like a classroom than a bucket of crabs. As soon as one starts up the wall, the others pull it down


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10 Mar 2012 09:14 AM
I have learned a lot from this forum over the years.  Many people have been very patient with me and helped me to learn.

I would like to think of posters of this forum as being friends.  But to be that, we have to be nice to each other.  There is nothing wrong with disagreeing.  However, I think disagreeing is more effective when it is done in a nice way.  No, I am not picking on you or anyone.  I try to avoid conflict and I think most other people do too.  Conflict does not accomplish much in my opinon except to lower respect.  I think that correcting mis-statements or incorrect statements is a natural thing to do and it should be done on this forum.  But we need to get along to learn more.  I would like to see this forum as a place where everyone can participate without the fear of name calling or ridicule.  We all have different levels of knowledge.  No one person can know it all.  But by sharing our thoughts, we can all benefit.  Hopefully, I have stated my opinion a nice positive way.  If I have not, then everyone let me know.


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10 Mar 2012 11:26 PM
Posted By zehboss on 05 Mar 2012 09:42 PM
A gabion based wall normally does not require a separate foundation. It can be filled with pearlite, pumice, earth, sand, modified earth,(added cement), rammed earth, gravel, road base, concrete, etc. depending on what properties you want to achieve. You can put top soil in a separate 3 to 6 inch surface layer allowing a live wall. You can surface with a material that cost $1 per square foot that will last 100 years in that application with no maintenance.



Gabions are normally used in civil engineering applications. The established engineering of the structure is already complete and standardized. This is simply a repurposing of standard proven materials to a new application.



Brian


Brian - Please understand, I'm not saying your system doesn't work but I do have a few questions that trigger alarm bells. I am familair with gabions in soil retaining and erosion control. One of the main advantages is that as the ground shifts or heaves the gabions because of their lose fill can shift with it and usually because of their weight will settle down again after a frost event or similair occurrence. This may not be an issue in the south but I really can't see using them in a residence with out a frost protected footing.
Also with any loose fill product, gravity usually wins. Any bright young thing has a great figure but with time pear shapes tend to dominate. If there is any unequal movement in the house walls we could have a serious structural problem, no? If you add portland to your soil mix, would you not go from the thermal dynamics of adobe to that of cement since each soil particle is now contained inside a cement coating? Therefore it cannot respond to moisture?
One last thought. The Tax Man always measure the outside.
Bob


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11 Mar 2012 12:50 AM
Building upon what Alton stated. I have learned a lot from this forum and continue to learn, it is an on-going process as it should be for all people. One can never achieve ultimate knowledge in their lifetime.

Unfortunately on this forum when differing opinions are given, there are some whose pride gets hurt and they go on the attack. There are also some who want their posts to be taken as gospel truth and if you dare question them or their theories, they go on the attack.

It's hard not to get into a battle with these people but instead of responding to them when they do that, it might be best to just ignore them.

Let us learn, post our opinions, but do so in a polite professional manner.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program...


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11 Mar 2012 04:37 AM
Bob,

All you say has validity and for that reason have all been addressed by the process we have developed. Frost levels have to be addressed in the same way they are for any foundation. Gabions are often used over unstable soils for retention projects as you have said. One of the advantages is that in extreme earth movement they do not fail and can accommodate the earth movement directly below them. This means the structure does not fail in a situation where a standard home would fail. This is a plus not a minus. It will not kill you by collapsing in a severe natural disaster.

Most approved construction sites simply do not have such soils problems. The external surface is water proofed and external to the gabion drainage needs to be accommodated, if below grade. These issues are not any different than a standard home. Poor soils quality on the site require a footer-bond beam to be installed in the bottom of the wall. The Gabion walls normally only require 75 psi support from the soil due to the larger foot print. This is less than a standard house and therefore less likely to be an issue than it is with a standard home. Again gabions are superior at dealing with soil problems, chalk up another bennefit of gabions.

The walls are compacted in 6 inch lifts. Horizontal supports are placed in the cages beyond the normal gabion structure after each lift. This eliminates the potential of the wall changing shape over time. Using curved walls puts the metal surface into stress, this dramatically reduces the potential for wall bulging. Bond beams are also installed at floor transitions. Each bond beam is tensioned to further eliminate settling issues.

In areas where humidity is an issue dehumidification is normally handled by a separate system integrated into the homes ventilation system. Adding Cement does affect the ability of the wall to absorb water but all of this has to be part of the integrated design. You need to solve all the problems associated with any given site and design no matter the system you use. I find our gabion based system to address the issues more flexibly and at a lower cost to performance than any other methodology I know of to date.

Brian


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11 Mar 2012 05:15 AM
Lbear,

I hope my comments have been helpful. I am trying to help people understand that there are alternative methods that provide superior results at lower costs. To date gabion based systems are delivering the best cost/performance I have experience. That does not mean I will not find something better. I just have not to date.

Sorry you have had to listen to the product bias bashing zealots. I am trying not to be one. I think I am expressing where I am on my journey verses having attached myself to one outcome without being open to alternatives. I usually break it down to dollars of material and labor cost per delivered R-value per foot of wall. I think that measure gives me an unbiased method to compare systems. I realize the effects of mass, climate and many other factors affect the real world performance and consider them in each iterative design process.

The gabion system we are doing works out at 10 cents per R value per square foot of wall including internal and external finish. That is a wall that delivers R-100 with siding and internal finish for $10 per foot installed. If someone has something better I really want to know about it.

Brian


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20 Mar 2012 10:26 PM




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20 Mar 2012 10:48 PM
Thanks for the blog. I had to laugh at the classic "I'm adding water but don't worry, it will hardly effect the strength".


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25 Mar 2012 07:26 PM


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25 Mar 2012 09:17 PM
How much weight did you use with what thickness of mortar?


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26 Mar 2012 03:32 AM
Standard 6 bag with pea gravel with a 6 inch slump for fill in post and beam. Panels had 1/2" high strength figer reinforced surface bond cement.

Brian


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26 Mar 2012 06:27 AM
Posted By jonr on 25 Mar 2012 09:17 PM
How much weight did you use with what thickness of mortar?

The concrete was 1-1/2 inch thick on all sides of all panels.  Strength was 5500-5900 psi


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26 Mar 2012 06:29 AM
Posted By zehboss on 26 Mar 2012 03:32 AM
Standard 6 bag with pea gravel with a 6 flump.

Concrete was from a local redimix plant.  Spec'd at 6000 psi on the truck. Somewhere between 5500-5900 psi after water/clay additive needed for shotcrete machine.  Aggregates were three different sands and fly ash (no gravel).  1/2 to 1 inch slump as it leaves the shotcrete nozzle.

This stuff has to stick to overhead panels without falling to the ground.


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26 Mar 2012 10:39 AM
In the test, how much wall width was supporting how much weight? For example, two 4' wide wall surfaces were supporting 2000 pounds of water.

With 1.5 inches on each side, I expect that you will have a very strong house.


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26 Mar 2012 03:03 PM
Posted By jonr on 26 Mar 2012 10:39 AM
In the test, how much wall width was supporting how much weight? For example, two 4' wide wall surfaces were supporting 2000 pounds of water.

With 1.5 inches on each side, I expect that you will have a very strong house.

jonr,

The direct answer to your question is 1.5 inches wide X 16 ft supporting 6400 lbs.

A picture is worth a billion words.  This is the floor wall joint before it was shot. Notice the horizontal floor panel STOPS at the vertical wall panel so its load transfer mechanism stops there as well and that transfer mechanism is all shear.  The floor panel doesn't rest atop the wall panel which would allow direct compressive load transfer.  It is hanging on the wall by only mesh and concrete. 



After shotcrete application the test structure is two 12 ft (tall) X 8 ft (wide) X 8 in (thick) walls supporting a 12 ft X 8 ft X 13 in floor.  The floor doesn't attach to the top of the wall but to only the inner Wythe of the wall panels 1 ft below the top.  So, 6400 lbs of water is supported by a pair of 1.5 inch wide X 8 ft long SCIP Wythes on the inner side of each wall.   These two thin steel reinforced concrete shells are resisting the entire live+dead load and moments generated by that load.  There is some (weak)  composite reaction from the 6 inch O.C. Z trusses which allows the outer Wythe to act as a buttress keeping the inner Wythe in column.

Please notice the mesh gussets above and below which double the wall panel mesh As (area of steel) and add substantial strength to this joint in shear.  My calculations suggest it would take over 1500 lbs of force per linear foot at this joint for it to fail in shear.  The floor would have to be loaded to 250 lb/ft^2 to generate that shear force.  The floor panels would probably fail in Euler buckling before they could be loaded to that level.  Put another way the joint can probably take more load than the floor.

The entire reason for this test was I just wasn't comfortable with this moment connection.  I am now.


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11 Dec 2012 12:49 PM
SCIP, any updates on the CO house as far as utilities/thermal performance? thermal imaging for conduction by the truss wires? I'd be curious to know since I haven't seen much on SCIPS in cold climates. thanks!

I wonder what data exists on multiple freeze thaw cycles for this construction as well.



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11 Dec 2012 02:11 PM
Jrobicheaux,

Am I correct?  The only steel reinforcing in the connection of the floor panel and the wall is the steel wire mesh plus the wire mesh gussets?  If so, I would think that the connection could be made stronger by inserting bent rebar above or below the intersection of the wall/floor panel.  Of course, for a home, it may not be needed.  But for a garage floor, more strength could be appreciated.

I have not used SCIP shotcrete floor panels but I was advised to insert #4 rebar diagonally at the top of openings in the Insteel wall.  I was told that this would limit crack formation at the top of the windows.


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11 Dec 2012 04:19 PM
I think I see rebar in the vertical portion of the wall.


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11 Dec 2012 06:23 PM
No, those are just the outer chords of the Z-truss's.  I once calculated that two layers of the one inch mesh had the equivalent As (area of steel) of a #3 rebar on one ft centers and that was running in both the vertical and (far less important) horizontal direction.


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11 Dec 2012 07:14 PM
I suppose mesh also avoids the point loading from more widely spaced rebar.


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11 Dec 2012 08:50 PM
Exactly,

The equivalent As comes with a much greater surface area as well.  I can't find my calculations but I think this mesh has at least three times as much surface area as a single equivalent As rebar, and it's distributed uniformly over the loaded connection.  Even if external point loads are applied they are distributed by both the vertical and horizontal strands of the steel in the mesh.  When I try to visualize the load paths in this stuff I think of a steel reinforced concrete hammock.

To speak to Alton's question I think the horizontal component of the mesh As contributes greatly to the strength (crack mitigation) over window and door openings.  I'm not saying it's enough that requires an individual load/moment analysis.

Jim 


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11 Dec 2012 10:01 PM
Szen The utility was nearly non existent last winter. I will be meeting the owner in the next few weeks and will be asking about utility bills. Till this week we have been unseasonably warm As for thermal imaging I was waiting till it got cold. Now its cold and I am Finishing up whole house renovation. I am in the middle of a 3,500' TI audio Video show room with an additional 3,500 lower level TI finish after upper level is done. On a another job I am Fabricating a custom 18' ten quarter walnut bench, mantel, art shelves and shadow light rails above fire place. Now they also want 8' tall arch top DBL doors with side lights made to close off the music room and a home theater in the basement with stadium seating. I also signed another home theater today. I have on the books to bid a garage , two bathrooms and a kitchen as a result of the whole house renovation. As for cold thaw the SCIP building built in Parker Colorado in the 90 looks great, and the office/ factory in Arvada or Lakewood CO also has a number of winters and when I spoke to the owner he said is very happy with the performance of the building. Both look great and I saw now problems. I have been meaning in my spare time to drive up to see the SCIP home built to replace one of the homes that burnt down in the Four Mile fire above Boulder CO. As soon as I get the show room and the pre Christmas rush jobs done I will be able to make time to do the thermal imaging. I will also post up on the Highland home as I get information. I am also in design or bid process on several other SCIP projects one really exciting one is a Frank Lloyd Wright design. Anyone in So Florida That wants to build or consult on building a SCIP home, who already has built one let me know.


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03 Feb 2013 11:30 AM
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03 Feb 2013 03:42 PM
I went to the site and looked at the photos of the build. That home is completely out of square. I could not find one true and square window and door opening, let along the pillars were completely out of square & leaning. (See southeast elevation)

Why is the home so out of whack? It has to be worse in person than in the photos because if you can see the window or door opening to be out of square, in person it will be 100x worse.








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03 Feb 2013 04:27 PM
Posted By Lbear on 03 Feb 2013 03:42 PM
I went to the site and looked at the photos of the build. That home is completely out of square. I could not find one true and square window and door opening, let along the pillars were completely out of square & leaning. (See southeast elevation)

Why is the home so out of whack? It has to be worse in person than in the photos because if you can see the window or door opening to be out of square, in person it will be 100x worse.







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03 Feb 2013 05:28 PM
Lbear,

My wife, brother and I have visited the work site a few times since construction commenced.  The building looks much better than the pictures show.  Our last visit was on 1-8-13.

I saw nothing that would discourage me from building with shotcrete panels.  A good stucco coat can add color and uniform finish.  Been there and done that with a fine sand finish of stucco over shotcrete.

I understand from the architect/builder that the final finish will be Tabby (broken) Shell.  See examples on the web.

As Jim keeps us posted on progress, I hope to make more trips to his site to learn all I can.  His architect/builder has been outstanding in sharing information with me about building with shotcrete panels since my experience has been limited.


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03 Feb 2013 07:02 PM
Posted By jrobicheaux on 03 Feb 2013 04:27 PM

I guess I forgot to put in my standard caution>

All but one of the photos are Photo stitched composites.  the distortions you noticed are just that, distortions.  I'm sure you realize even parallel lines appear to meet at infinity when photographed from a point.  This is exaggerated by the Photoshop software which actually moves pixels around and makes straight edges curve to achieve a joining of an adjacent image. 

The greatest out of plumb condition I've been able to find is an internal column 1 ft X 4 ft X 38 ft tall which has one surface that is 1/2 inch out.  Since this is a solid SRC column that is loaded along it's length by floor and roof moment connections and not at it's top, I'm not concerned.

Thanks for the clarification. I would post that caution on the website in BIG BOLD letters or get different photos. As the photos make the home and SCIP construction look like a home being built in a 3rd world country. When a friend of mine looked at the site photos he thought it was a home going up in Haiti. The distortions are pretty bad and the photos should be changed or at least have the disclaimer posted under the photos.

I don't mean to sound harsh but I am just being honest. I am now confident the home is true and square but the photos did it a disservice.

The SCIP build is interesting. Does 2012 IBC recognize SCIP? How does the exterior shotcrete work in an area that experiences freezing temps? Is the shotcrete water proof/moisture resistant? Wouldn't that cause freeze/thaw cracking issues on the exterior of the home?


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03 Feb 2013 11:44 PM
great to see project moving forward!


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28 Feb 2013 02:21 PM
http://www.concrete.tv/2013/02/how-do-you-protect-a-concrete-building-from-earthquakes-and-hurricanes/

GCT seems to be expanding and building in the US in gulf coast, and mentioned ND and AK as welll for cold weather building.


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28 Feb 2013 05:00 PM
Posted By slenzen on 28 Feb 2013 02:21 PM
http://www.concrete.tv/2013/02/how-do-you-protect-a-concrete-building-from-earthquakes-and-hurricanes/

GCT seems to be expanding and building in the US in gulf coast, and mentioned ND and AK as welll for cold weather building.


Having met with Edgar, Victor an Scott after talking to them for months I am glad to have a stable US company to get panels and information from. I made my panels for the SCIP home I built. I am glad I did it (once)and am now bidding jobs with GCTs panels. Their wealth of information and support is beyond what I hoped for. They need to post up the thermal study as it blows what I had been told and thought regarding how thick the EPS need to be. Thermal Mass is like adding steroids to the R value. 3" of EPS with their concrete dropped 138 degrees to 72 degrees on the interior cement side of the wall.


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28 Feb 2013 07:08 PM
Mr. Sims, you may already said, but are you a contractor that installs and shoots GCT panels?  If so, where are you located?  I always seem to be looking for various trades throughout the southeast to do alternative type of construction.  I have to admit, the last 10 years more and more alternative construction is getting done and more people are getting trained.  I think there is even more hope for the future to save energy and to withstand storms.


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28 Feb 2013 08:03 PM
Alton I just missed you last year at WOC. I am in Colorado. Call Scott at GCT he is in northern Florida. I am bidding Two on Colorado, one in Texas and one Jamaica and consulting on the design of one in and Miami and I know of another in Miami already designed looking for a contractor. Richard


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28 Feb 2013 08:55 PM
Richard,

Now I remember about us trying to get together in Vegas.   We have exchanged some e-mails but it has been awhile.

One of my clients and I have been communicating with Scott and others at Gulf Concrete Technology (GCT).  I have not met Scott in person although I have met others at GCT.  This Saturday, we are supposed to meet with Scot as he exhibits GCT panels at the Huntsville, AL home show.  Anyone interested in shotcrete panels in the Huntsville area should make an effort to see GCT technology and get their questions answered in person.

 I just wish other companies would be as knowledgeable and responsive as every one at GCT has been with us.  So many companies do not answer their e-mails until a phone call has been made to follow up on their lack of response.  I cannot believe that business is so great that they do not have time to answer their e-mail.  If that is the case, it is time to hire more people and get this country moving again by building structures.


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28 Feb 2013 10:15 PM
Does 2012 IBC/IRC recognize SCIP?

How does the exterior shotcrete work in an area that experiences freezing temps? Cement based exterior finishes like stucco have a lot of cracking problems in areas that experience freeze/thaw cycles.

Is the shotcrete water proof/moisture resistant?

Are the new SCIPs now designed without the steel thermal bridging trusses that the old designs had?




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28 Feb 2013 10:32 PM
Alton
As I found out some company's are just in their own minds.
Buyer beware!!
The Colorado company (current name unknown) I ordered panels from sent me a dear john email two weeks before delivery.
As far as I can find out in two years they have never built a SCIP home.
Another Colorado company has built three buildings with a Met Rock type panel.
They build a super clean panel but the machine is slow compared to GCTs set up so labor costs are higher as is the panel cost.
I know of several other company's two in Texas, one in California and Mexico has a number of suppliers of panels.
Of the above companies Paul in Texas may or may not be building panels he has set up panel presses in a number of countries. He probably has the most complete history of the panel as his brother is the first person I can find using the panel.
I have heard and once found a link with a reference dating back to the 40s but my laptop died and I have not found it again.
Many of the companies are really middle persons brokering the panels from Mexico and South America.
GCT is the only one I am in contact with that is full service US made and with someone to answer all my questions.
Rod in San Diego, and Jim in Reno all broker panels and are extremely knowledgeable and helpful.
If anyone wants there contact information email me. Annie in LA has a panel company with photos with Clinton in Haiti and a LA TV interview. I am unsure what panel she uses.
Over the past four years they are still in the game answer my calls.


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28 Feb 2013 10:32 PM
oops


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28 Feb 2013 10:32 PM
sorry


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28 Feb 2013 11:01 PM
Posted By Lbear on 28 Feb 2013 10:15 PM
Does 2012 IBC/IRC recognize SCIP?

How does the exterior shotcrete work in an area that experiences freezing temps? Cement based exterior finishes like stucco have a lot of cracking problems in areas that experience freeze/thaw cycles.

Is the shotcrete water proof/moisture resistant?

Are the new SCIPs now designed without the steel thermal bridging trusses that the old designs had?




The thermal bridging is not as big of a deal as you may think. Single digits for several days in a row, with weeks below freezing. The thermostat was set at 55 and the temperature in the house never dropped below 60 with afternoon temperatures from solar gain in the high 70s even low 80s. SO how much thermal bridging was there? We had some cracking as the first Shotcrete contractor attempted doing the walls in one coat and I switch systems and sub cutting down on cracking. Looking forward to using GCTS blend to see how it works. If you have experience with thermal mass building and SCIP Panels it is a non issue. A European SCIP panel company had a composite tie option. Never saw it in the US. I emailed Victor for a copy of the picture of the thermal test I can attach. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.


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28 Feb 2013 11:06 PM
Another builders SCIP home above Boulder CO. High above Boulder Colorado zone 4+++ I guess, light freeze possible on occasion .


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01 Mar 2013 03:17 AM
Posted By Richard Sims on 28 Feb 2013 11:01 PM


The thermal bridging is not as big of a deal as you may think. Single digits for several days in a row, with weeks below freezing. The thermostat was set at 55 and the temperature in the house never dropped below 60 with afternoon temperatures from solar gain in the high 70s even low 80s. SO how much thermal bridging was there? We had some cracking as the first Shotcrete contractor attempted doing the walls in one coat and I switch systems and sub cutting down on cracking. Looking forward to using GCTS blend to see how it works. If you have experience with thermal mass building and SCIP Panels it is a non issue. A European SCIP panel company had a composite tie option. Never saw it in the US. I emailed Victor for a copy of the picture of the thermal test I can attach. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

You mentioned that you had cracking on the walls. How bad were the cracks?

Is there any HotBox or 3rd party testing by any of the labs regarding SCIPs?

No disrespect, but anecdotal evidence does not count as proof of thermal bridging not being a factor. From what I have read, SCIPs works better in mild climates (Florida, Mexico, South America) but in any Zone 4 or above, the thermal bridging of the metal trusses really hurts the efficiency of the home. As seen below, the metal trusses are all thermal bridges and would play a significant role. Both concrete and metal are notorious for thermal bridging. There is no thermal break in the metal trusses that are exposed to the outside and sitting in concrete.




I am not knocking the technology but the current SCIPs available here have a thermal bridge problem that is inherent in the design itself. While maybe not a huge problem in Zones 1-3, it does play a role in colder climates.

The other question is that with a SCIP, everywhere where a truss meets the exterior wall, a solid-concrete joint is installed. They remove the EPS and fill the cavity with concrete. This is another thermal bridge. Have they designed a different system for these areas?

When it comes to strength, there is no doubt that SCIPs perform better than any stick frame construction. The biggest issue is that any scientific data is really lacking on SCIPS. None of the National Labs mention it and its non-existant on the GBA and JLC professional websites. ORNL did a hotbox of a psuedo SCIPS and it rated the thermal bridging as extremely high. Knocking the panel from the supposed R30 down to an R8 all due to the metal web trusses.




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01 Mar 2013 07:05 AM
I am not knocking the technology but the currtent SCIPs available here have a thermal bridge problem that is inherent in the design itself.


Elsewhere in this forum I went through the calculations. As I recall, a factor, but not a large one.


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01 Mar 2013 08:28 AM
And as I have pointed out, the R8 SCIP wall in question was the (formerly) Dow Tmass system consisting of a concrete sandwich of R10 xps. The R-30 figure was ORNL's estimate of its mass-enhanced equivalent R value.

As a rule, disregard any statement that begins "I am not knocking the technology but...."


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01 Mar 2013 09:15 AM
Posted By toddm on 01 Mar 2013 08:28 AM


As a rule, disregard any statement that begins "I am not knocking the technology but...."


I believe that is uncalled for!! It is an honest concern that is being expressed. We have had conversations about the amount of steel fasteners required to attach foam to the envelope of home and how much heat is lost. Certainly when you have the steel truss embedded in layers of highly conductive concrete on both the warm side and on the cold side you will have heat loss. The steel is highly conductive and the two concrete panels become absorbent and radiant panels. As Lbear was expressing, the higher the delta T the more concern this would be.


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01 Mar 2013 11:50 AM
Richard,

Thank you for posting your comments.  That is valuable info to know.  Although I have used SCIP panels, I am still learning more about the technology and companies every day.  I really appreciate the wide choice of panels GCT has for walls, floors and roofs and the way they respond to questions.

Lbear,
There are some walls with the insulation between two wythes of concrete that do reduce the thermal path.  See SolarCrete, ThermoMASS, SABS, and EASI-Wall insert.  Keep in mind that the ThermoMASS wall is not a composite wall.  That is, only one of the wythes of concrete can be used for structural calculations.

Shotcrete walls can be very water resistant if the proper mix like Quikrete MS is used.  Ordinary mixes can be easily protected by treating the walls with S1000, S2000, etc. and color can be almost unlimited with synthetic (acrylic) stucco.

Shotcrete and cement based finishes can be quite different.  Shotcrete can be applied with a very low water to cement ratio and can have very high PSI which can reduce the possibility of cracking.  With the right mix and under good curing conditions, the PSI can reach 9000 PSI.  A PSI above 4200 will be very water resistant.  My understanding is that real stucco applied with too much water in the mix will create small cracks that can look like a spider web.  That happened on one of my projects.  Stucco crew easily removed and replaced cracked area.  Since I live in a very moderate climate, I do not know about whether freezing affects shotcrete.  Check with some of the zoos in cold climate areas.  A lot of the natural looking exhibits contain a lot of shotcrete in the shape of rocks and caves.

Regarding thermal bridging, I have been considering installing 2" of EPS beyond the shotcrete and then applying a synthetic stucco.  For example, ordering a panel with about 4" of EPS and then adding more EPS after the shotcrete.  Other than the extra cost, I think this would correct the thermal problem.


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01 Mar 2013 06:05 PM
Keep in mind that stucco and shotcrete are concrete and benefit from being kept moist while curing.


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01 Mar 2013 09:16 PM
So I see a larger sample with trusses needs to be tested. I know there was a thermal study by a university in Arizona but I have not been able to get a copy. It was run on thermal bridging of a complete room with trusses every six inches. If the panels truly dropped to R8 the interior how could the inside stayed above 60 degrees with temps for several day in the single digits and weeks with lows in the twenty's and thirty's. The building is so energy efficient the owner questioned the need for geothermal. I walked the house most mornings with my thermal gun and shot the walls doors windows inside and out. I did nor find a panel or interior wall area below 60 degrees. My real life Colorado winter experience does not track with your study. I have worked in SIPs and ICF homes in the dead of winter and none were as comfortable as the a thermal mass interior. I do not have the answers but it compels me to find more answers.


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01 Mar 2013 09:45 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 01 Mar 2013 09:16 PM
I know there was a thermal study by a university in Arizona but I have not been able to get a copy.
Are there steel web trusses within that foam? I don't see any in the picture.

Concrete - EPS - concrete = the EPS would be a thermal break as long as there was NO steel connection between the outside concrete and inside concrete. The typical SCIP I have seen has steel web trusses and steel mesh that interconnect from one side of the form to the other.

While the above will not pass the scrutiny as being a valid scientific experiment, it is interesting to note. What surprises me more is the 4" thick concrete block is actually showing a temperature drop. A concrete block like that has an R-Value of like R1, so for it to show a 20 degree difference in temperature is strange to say the least.





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01 Mar 2013 10:00 PM
My first sentence.... So I see a larger sample with trusses needs to be tested.


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01 Mar 2013 10:27 PM
Alton spoke of a number of non SCIP systems , one being Thermal mass wall systems a poured in place wall system with a foam thermal break with composite ties.
The system has been built in the US for over forty years.
I saw a fire station in the Colorado mountains that had a $1.00 heating bill for the year.
Thermal mass with the break is the game changer.

Even Oak Ridge National Laboratory's studies show the benefit of thermal mass

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/thermal/index.html

Comparative analysis of sixteen different material configurations showed that the most effective wall assembly was the wall with thermal mass (concrete) applied in good contact with the interior of the building. Walls where the insulation material was concentrated on the interior side, performed much worse. Wall configurations with the concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides of the wall performed slightly better, however, their performance was significantly worse than walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides.


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01 Mar 2013 10:45 PM
Posted By Alton on 01 Mar 2013 11:50 AM

Lbear,
There are some walls with the insulation between two wythes of concrete that do reduce the thermal path.  See SolarCrete, ThermoMASS, SABS, and EASI-Wall insert.  Keep in mind that the ThermoMASS wall is not a composite wall.  That is, only one of the wythes of concrete can be used for structural calculations.


Regarding thermal bridging, I have been considering installing 2" of EPS beyond the shotcrete and then applying a synthetic stucco.  For example, ordering a panel with about 4" of EPS and then adding more EPS after the shotcrete.  Other than the extra cost, I think this would correct the thermal problem.

That would work as a thermal break but what about the costs? I've read that SCIPs goes for about $20-$25 per sqft of wall space, when all is said and done (forms, labor, shotcrete, etc). Adding another 2" of EPS and then another EIFS stucco coats would surely make the costs out of reach for most people. What prices have you seen SCIPs at (installed)?

Concrete or Shotcrete are so dependent on exterior temps, humidity, air wind speed, sunlight, etc. From my observations Shotcrete is much more temperamental than pouring a slab on grade. That is one thing that shines with ICF, it is the perfect curing environment for concrete. Cracks forming in Shotcrete is a problem, especially in climates that see freeze/thaw cycles.

I don't want to come across as all negative
but there is a reason why SCIPs is so rare. There is almost no 3rd party test results available. A Google or Bing search on SCIPs nets almost no real world test data. The search engine actually finds so little information on it that it tries to convert it to "SIPS" instead. Even when you spell out SCIPs, I can't find hard data on it, just some websites that sell and install the product. Not to mention the SCIP companies that went defunct in past couple of years.

ORNL TEST OF SCIP   (2" concrete - 3" EPS - 2" concrete) (Due to thermal bridging wall had a R-Value of R7.6)

SCIPs has potential, I just don't think it will ever catch on, at least here in the USA. Until the SCIP industry has ORNL or LBNL do some in-depth hot box tests, it will remain obscure. The inability to install interior drywall is a huge negative, the lack of simple interior attachment points, trying to hang a painting becomes a huge ordeal, having your electrical wiring and plumbing buried under 2" or more of shotcrete within the walls is not a selling point.

The biggest drawback I've seen is the cost, the lack of availability in regional areas and the lack of a well-trained crew to do it, the costs are pretty high, much higher than ICF. As far as R-Value per dollar spent, it will not appeal to most. If it comes down to disaster resistant housing, then yes, it has a selling point. ICF gets beat up quite a bit for price per R-Value. The folks at Green Building Advisor and Journey of Light Construction don't even give SCIPs the time of day. If you thought they were tough on ICF, they don't even acknowledge SCIPs as being a viable building option.

A good start would be if this forum gave SCIPs it it's own forum category.






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01 Mar 2013 11:18 PM
GCT posted this on FB, I'm surely intrigued about this system but would not want to be a guinea pig especially in a northern cold climate. Maybe they have experienced crews or supervisors to oversee projects.  Good to see a SCIP company expanding in the US.

very cool! have there been studies on the amount thermal transfer from inside wythe to outside through the wire mesh? thanks!
February 8 at 9:22am · Like

GCT Numeruous test have been performed by Approved Agency and Approved Source: SBC Research Institute, Madison, WI. For detail and technical information, please visit www.sbcri.info or contact Mr. Scott Miller, at [email protected] or call him at 904-742-4171.
February 8 at 10:07am · Unlike · 1


they mentioned projects in AK and ND, would be great if GCT came to this forum and shared some more information.

I thought the metrock panels w/ the screed guide wire were a good idea for non skilled shotcrete guys getting depth right and flatter walls. You'd think gunite/shotcrete companies and pool contractors would be all over promoting this system for more business. Why not insulated pools? They make so much sense. fences, retaining walls to start and move into homes as skill level increases. Costs would come down rapidly w/ more supply in the marketplace. I'd personally like the finish in a modern minimalist concrete home. You know the stuff is tough, they use the technology to repair bridges and strengthen mine shafts.

Concerns as raised would be how do you combat thermal bridging where the walls meet the roof panels? when its mesh to mesh you'd get concrete from the inside to the outside along that seam. is it significant?

The construction method should have some cost offsets as well when doing calculations, eliminating materials and trades such as barriers, framing, drywall, insulation, siding etc...I don't see the electrical and plumbing in walls being too big of an issue, especially when you want to design plumbing to interior walls, and put conduit in for electrical in exterior walls.

I'm still trying to figure out how the heck SABS can build with thick EPS panels and get a solid structure with only a 1/4inch application of their fiber cement???

Gigahouse looks pretty dang slick too! EPS panels with steel framing that slides in precut slots in a nifty system, then covered w/ gigacrete.



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02 Mar 2013 12:09 PM
"I believe that is uncalled for!! It is an honest concern that is being expressed. We have had conversations about the amount of steel fasteners required to attach foam to the envelope of home and how much heat is lost."

What's uncalled for is resurrecting a patently ridiculous claim -- a thermal bridge reduction from R30 to R8 -- that was challenged and withdrawn earlier in this thread. The actual reduction in ORNL's test of the TMass system was R10 to R8.


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02 Mar 2013 01:11 PM


There is quite a bit of third party testing some I have seen. Some dating back to the early 90s.
Last year I saw a study on roof and floor panels tested to failure.
The redesigned fix was close to what I already was doing with 25 to 30' spans designed by Merline.

Merline Vandyke a licensed engineer of Colorado did a lot of work with the Met Rock people.

University Irvin in Cal has done a lot of structural tests regarding earthquakes. The information I have on private testing is not mine to pass out and its owner who spent thousands is not personally known to me

It is my understanding shotcrete was widely used after WWll in rebuilding Europe. Thermal mass building is the standard building method used in Europe. It was the only system I saw touring building sites in Austria two yeas ago.

Talking to a German based contractor I met at WOC when we were discussing building in both country's he commented how advanced America is on so many levels just not building.
He made the statement we were still in the caveman era as far as energy efficiency.

I know some of the guys who built a house in San Diego in under three hours back in the 80s. I am talking ground up, complete move in ready including pouring the slab.
So we can do fast how about now we make better the standard.


Cost to build SCIP, ICFs, and sips varies a lot state to state like any other type of building.
I know of one guy in Colorado quoting $18.00 and I have heard prices $15.00 to 18.00 in the south. To many things effect price to throw out numbers with any accuracy.

There are more SCIP homes around than we even know about.
I know one I drove by for years not even knows SCIP existed.


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02 Mar 2013 01:12 PM
A good start would be if this forum gave SCIPs it it's own forum category.
I have wondered the same thing.


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02 Mar 2013 02:28 PM
What would it take for GBT to open a separate forum?


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02 Mar 2013 05:40 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 02 Mar 2013 02:28 PM
What would it take for GBT to open a separate forum?

If you mean a separate forum thread category, it would take enough of a substantial interest, which does not currently exist. What I can tell you is that Green Building Advisor does NOT recognize SCIPs as even a viable building option. They discuss SIPs, ICF, rammed earth, wood frame, and many other building methods but SCIPs is non-existent. The same goes for JLC. Log onto the sites and see for yourself. The cost of SCIPs and the ROI is too out of wack and the risk of things going bad is also high. Add to that the lack of qualified/skilled crews to do it and nobody wants to deal with it. As others have mentioned here, who want to be the guinea pig?

What SCIPs needs to do is get an established resource center where people can go to. Then it will require the SCIP manufacturers to have the panels tested by 3rd party labs  and get IRC/IBC code approved. It will then be viewed as being legitimate. Until then, it's going to remain in obscurity as it has for the past decade.

My firsthand experience with SCIPs was that none of the online companies would returns calls and the one company that did return a call was ball parking around $20-$25 per wall square footage. I later learned many of those SCIPs companies went defunct and then later tried opening up under other LLC names. Not exactly something that instills trust in the industry.




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02 Mar 2013 06:12 PM
Saying SCIPs only work in warmer climates is not true.

I know of SCIP buildings in zones 5-7 with no ill effects from freeze thaw reported.

I have tried to contact the owner of a commercial SCIP building built in the mid 90s with no luck.
I did contact the owner of a commercial building built in the mid 2000s. They are extremely happy with the building.
I worked with a shotcrete contractor who has been working with many different panels and foam shotcrete systems in the past thirty years.
Many were built in the mountains in Colorado, I know he has also worked in the NW and far north as Alaska.
The Green Sandwich Panel company has been building in Colorado for thirty years I believe.


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02 Mar 2013 06:12 PM
Wolfram Kasemir and Merline Van Dyke worked on the Green Sandwich Panel and the K Panel before Merline worked on the MetRock Panel in 92 if I remember correctly.


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02 Mar 2013 06:30 PM
Richard - While I have a number of concerns about this method of building, I would love to learn more. If my considers are relevant maybe open discussion can find answers to those concerns. I know that here in Calgary Alberta, shotcrete of some form or other has been used successfully for retain walls and the dinosaur park at the Zoo so to go to building homes would not be such a stretch. Of course thermal bridging is much more a concern in a home than it might be to the dinosaurs at the zoo that themselves are made of shotcrete!! Try clicking the ALERT button to the right of your post. It will alert the moderator and who knows, he might see it as a good idea.


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04 Mar 2013 09:43 PM
ICF was some fringe whack idea at one point as well. It takes some organization, 3rd party testing for legitimacy, associations, coordination, continuous improvement/innovation along the way, and marketing muscle to educate the marketplace.  Whether that happens remains to be seen.  I think there is lots of potential in similar systems.

anyone have info on how SABS can build a strong structure with no steel mesh/reinforcing and such a thin coat of cement?


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04 Mar 2013 11:15 PM
I have a client hot to use SABS but the material prices exceeded the budget.  Now we are planning to use Gulf Concrete Technology shotcrete panels from Long Beach, MS.


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04 Mar 2013 11:51 PM
did they price a gigahouse system?


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05 Mar 2013 07:46 AM
Posted By slenzen on 04 Mar 2013 11:51 PM
did they price a gigahouse system?

No, we did not consider a Gigahouse system.  I will take another look at the Gigacrete system for future projects.  Does anyone on this forum have experience with the Gigacrete system?  If so, please share.


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05 Mar 2013 08:00 AM
There are a few SCIP houses going up down the road from me. Local price is about $40 per 4'x10'x2" panel. I've seen no problems with the SCIP homes here (tropical climate). They go up fast, the walls are straight and the A/C costs are reduced.


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05 Mar 2013 11:08 AM
Wonder if sabs, GCT, or gigahouse would want to build my house for me in the north for free and use it as a show home?


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05 Mar 2013 02:22 PM
Posted By jonr on 05 Mar 2013 08:00 AM
There are a few SCIP houses going up down the road from me. Local price is about $40 per 4'x10'x2" panel. I've seen no problems with the SCIP homes here (tropical climate). They go up fast, the walls are straight and the A/C costs are reduced.

Jonr,
Have any idea who supplied the shotcrete panels or what brand of shotcrete will be used?  My experience has been with Insteel which no longer exists.  I understand that Tridipanel from Mexicali, Mexico is the current incarnation of Insteel.  I wonder how much the labor and shotcrete will cost per panel?


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05 Mar 2013 08:48 PM
This is not scientific
Nor do I hope to change anyone with a closed mind or dispute anyone who puts out false information.

I had the pleasure of talking to a retired architect who built a SCIP home in 2002 on the Puget Sound. He now plans to build again with SCIP panels. I asked him how the panels performed in the North West .

He built the same type Alton did down south from Georgia supplied by Insteel.

He laughed when I told him about the nay sayers telling of huge drops in R value from the thermal bridging of the trusses.

He told of 40 degree days looking at all the wood stoves smoking away and his heat had not come on.

Told me how it would take an average of three days for the house to gain heat after being away and keep the heat for three days when the temperature dropped.

I did not ask how many years how many years he lived in the home. He was impressed enough to build with the system again.

I also spoke today with the client who moved into the Highland SCIP home I built. I asked about how the home was performing energy wise. He said his bills were 50% less and his old house is five feet away and was recently remodeled with radiant heat insulation high efficiency appliances.

I admit I was hoping for more savings but it is not a true apple for apples comparison.

I will see what data the Architect has if any when we meet in the next weeks.


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05 Mar 2013 08:51 PM
Posted By jonr on 05 Mar 2013 08:00 AM
There are a few SCIP houses going up down the road from me. Local price is about $40 per 4'x10'x2" panel. I've seen no problems with the SCIP homes here (tropical climate). They go up fast, the walls are straight and the A/C costs are reduced.


Please post up any information you can and pictures if possible.


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05 Mar 2013 09:59 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 05 Mar 2013 08:48 PM
This is not scientific
Nor do I hope to change anyone with a closed mind or dispute anyone who puts out false information.
It's not about having a "closed mind", it's about scientific facts and data. A lot of energy claims can be made but it comes down to where is the real factual proof? This is where the FTC steps in. If SCIPs can perform like the anecdotal claims that are put out there, then put it to test and put it to black and white. Unfortunately there is no scientific data out there which backs these verbal claims.

The FTC recently fined a company $350,000 for false energy claims. If SCIPs wants to be recognized by the green and alternative building industry, then it needs to put its money where its mouth is. Back the claims, do the 3rd party studies, get code approved. Let the FTC keep them in check. Until then anecdotal claims is not going to convince people to build with SCIPs.


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06 Mar 2013 11:08 AM
ORNL conducted thermal experiments in 1987 that tested concrete sandwich panels: http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1987/3445602788810.pdf


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06 Mar 2013 11:30 AM
Some high points of the study
a. This paper states that there is only a 7% reduction in the thermal properties of concrete panels with 32 – 3 mm diameter stainless steel connectors in a 103”x103” wall compared to walls without connectors or with fiberglass-composite ties.
b. The report evaluated the isothermal planes method (also called series-parallel method) of calculating the R factor for the wall assemblies and found that the method predicted a 5% decrease in the thermal properties which is very close to the measured difference.
c. The isothermal planes method for concrete walls is contained in ACI 122R “Guide to Thermal Properties of Concrete and Masonry Systems” which we used to calculate the R-factors for the GCT TER.
d. The walls also had a thermal lag of 5 to 6 hours, which helps to reduce the impact of daily high/low temperatures.
e. The thermal lag indicates the capacity of the wall to store energy and is useful for designing passive solar systems.


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06 Mar 2013 12:24 PM

Richard,

Thanks for posting the test results.  I think the test and field results are consistent.  Quoting the test results to a prospective client would be fair.  More validity could be achieved by other experimenters repeating the tests and obtaining similar results.



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06 Mar 2013 12:43 PM
Alton or any others interested
I am expecting two large files complied with more information than I am sure I want.


Its out there if you want to find it.


Before I built with SCIPs I saw it.


Talked to the family living in it.


Talked to the owner of a commercial SCIP building.


I have built it, experienced it, and trusted the data and information given to me by my engineer.


Who not only did the engineering on the SCIP home but years of structural work on many of my projects, including 8,500 home and 19,800 home and barn.


Be carful for what you ask for is what thought when I was told here come tons of data. I will pass it on as I am sure it will be more than I have time to pull apart and post as fast as many of you could.


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06 Mar 2013 02:18 PM
anyone have info on how SABS can build a strong structure with no steel mesh/reinforcing and such a thin coat of cement?


One way is to use concrete post and beam construction and then the SCIPs can be non-structural curtain walls/infill. But this isn't necessary and I don't think it is what SABS is doing.


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06 Mar 2013 02:30 PM
SABS walls are solid as opposed to post.  Long span roofs are supported by EPS/composite coated T-beams.  Very limited thermal paths.


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07 Mar 2013 12:36 AM
Anyone see SABS seismic rating? they give lots of data on the website. Earthquake Resistance they say Very resistant to seismic activity. They give a yes for ICFs and a No for Sips under Earthquake Resistance. No for SIPs really?


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07 Mar 2013 12:49 AM
I am still searching for the origin of SCIPS.
I had a thermal break time line on my first lap top that I lost the hard drive on and learned a lesion on backing up information.

Roman times two rock walls with a gap filled with straw,
1935 SIPS
1940 first SCIP walls
I heard the theory that the first foam in the wall was as a cheap filler to give a backing for the shotcrete to cut the amount of cement used.
Looking forward to getting the email with new names of early SCIP developers that I do not have.


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07 Mar 2013 09:00 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 05 Mar 2013 08:48 PM
This is not scientific
Nor do I hope to change anyone with a closed mind or dispute anyone who puts out false information.

I had the pleasure of talking to a retired architect who built a SCIP home in 2002 on the Puget Sound. He
He told of 40 degree days looking at all the wood stoves smoking away and his heat had not come on.

Told me how it would take an average of three days for the house to gain heat after being away and keep the heat for three days when the temperature dropped.

I did not ask how many years how many years he lived in the home. He was impressed enough to build with the system again.


Richard - We would not consider Puget Sound as a heat dominated climate but this does address one of my concerns. IT TAKES THREE DAYS. This is the problem with unprotected mass in cold climates. Unless the house was a very high solar gainer, he paid for all that heat stored in the walls. Now he was just drawing on his storage. This would not be a net benefit but rather a net loss.
Even in many high solar gain designs, only part of the house would benefit. The rest of the mass would have to be heated. There is no benefit in storing heat if
1) the heat doesn't come at a huge cost discount ie solar.
2) or there is a reason to believe there will be no heat available or a large increase in the required heat in the near future.

The three day lag does prove that it was a very air tight home, which is a benefit of most mono poured or shot concrete homes. When you go to panelize scips, you introduce more room for human error, that is more leaking joins.

I have no problem with the actual panels or shotcrete in cold climates. Many of our commercial building are tilt up although not always structural.


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07 Mar 2013 09:11 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 01 Mar 2013 10:27 PM
I saw a fire station in the Colorado mountains that had a $1.00 heating bill for the year.


I guess you are pulling our legs on this one, right?
Consider the large overhead doors for the fire engines. You will never get a significant R value in them. Then imagine five or six piece of fire apparatus rushing out taking all that heat with them. They spent hours out at minus 30 and come backing covered with snow and ice. Ton of metal to reheat and all the snow and ice to melt not to mention the air loss from those doors opening.


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07 Mar 2013 09:47 PM
Posted By FBBP on 07 Mar 2013 09:11 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 01 Mar 2013 10:27 PM
I saw a fire station in the Colorado mountains that had a $1.00 heating bill for the year.


I guess you are pulling our legs on this one, right?
Consider the large overhead doors for the fire engines. You will never get a significant R value in them. Then imagine five or six piece of fire apparatus rushing out taking all that heat with them. They spent hours out at minus 30 and come backing covered with snow and ice. Ton of metal to reheat and all the snow and ice to melt not to mention the air loss from those doors opening.

Exactly. That is why I am just asking for documented 3rd party testing of SCIPs. We can read these claims all day long but in the end they are meaningless unless there is documented studies and proof. Unfortunately SCIPs is not providing such material for people to see.




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07 Mar 2013 10:02 PM
. Lbear Did you not see the links for third party documentation?????


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07 Mar 2013 10:29 PM
L Bear Here is one link third party

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/thermal/index.html


(Walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides) (SCIP)

(Concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides) ( ICF)
(Wall configurations with the concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides of the wall performed slightly better, however, their performance was significantly worse than walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides)


(Walls where the insulation material was concentrated on the interior side)
(Comparative analysis of sixteen different material configurations showed that the most effective wall assembly was the wall with thermal mass (concrete) applied in good contact with the interior of the building. Walls where the insulation material was concentrated on the interior side, performed much worse. Wall configurations with the concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides of the wall performed slightly better, however, their performance was significantly worse than walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides)


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07 Mar 2013 10:36 PM
Lbear

Link # 2 I have reached out to several sources for third party data.
This was forwarded to me by a engineer who works and is very familiar with SCIPS

I am awaiting more and will post as they come to me

1. ORNL conducted thermal experiments in 1987 that tested concrete sandwich panels:

http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1987/3445602788810.pdf Sorry if you need to copy and paste.

a. This paper states that there is only a 7% reduction in the thermal properties of concrete panels with 32 – 3 mm diameter stainless steel connectors in a 103”x103” wall compared to walls without connectors or with fiberglass-composite ties.

b. The report evaluated the isothermal planes method (also called series-parallel method) of calculating the R factor for the wall assemblies and found that the method predicted a 5% decrease in the thermal properties which is very close to the measured difference.

c. The isothermal planes method for concrete walls is contained in ACI 122R “Guide to Thermal Properties of Concrete and Masonry Systems” which we used to calculate the R-factors for the GCT TER.

d. The walls also had a thermal lag of 5 to 6 hours, which helps to reduce the impact of daily high/low temperatures.

e. The thermal lag indicates the capacity of the wall to store energy and is useful for designing passive solar systems.

2. The ORNL website has nothing on it regarding the reduction from an R30 to an R8 due to the thermal bridging as one post in the thread claimed.

3. The walls tested had 2” of XPS insulation and 3” layers of concrete and only obtained an R value of about 8 which is reasonable for this amount of insulation.


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07 Mar 2013 11:45 PM
FBBP
I was not pulling you leg but relaying what I was told and shown by the owner of http://www.thermomass.com/ at WOC Expo. He assured me he was not pulling my leg.
Alice CO. Fire house was a Thermal mass poured concrete building.
The fire House I saw pictures of and talked to the owner of Thermal mass buildings about was at WOC expo. I pulled the picture from a CD they gave me.
I do not know what temperature they keep the fire station at, some areas like where the trucks would be above freezing but by how much.
I am not even sure where Alice, CO is but I will at some time go there and talk with them so my information is first hand to me.

My father in-law keeps the electric thermostat in the bedrooms in an Idaho mountains home at 55 degrees. I call that cold storage.
The living room and kitchen/ dining room are heated by wood stove.

Architect with SCIP home on sound where heat held for three days was relayed to me by the builder / owner himself who I am bidding to build a Timber frame post and beam/ SCIP home for in Colorado.
There are a number of SCIP homes built in the NW and I am trying to locate more information about them.
I know of three ongoing that are in different stages , one the foundation is in and he has ordered panels from Tri-D.
I have not seen the plans but have seen other work by the designer. His work in Hawaii and California is very intricate with multi level roofs. I look forward to see what he is doing in the NW Olympia area.

There is also a group building homes that believes 1 1/2" of thermal mass is not enough.
They were looking at the SCIP home I built considering using the system only using four times more concrete on the inside of the walls.
They are not considering any system that is not heavily positive thermal mass . No SIPs ICFs or double wall systems, and so far not SCIP as far as I know.


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08 Mar 2013 12:26 AM
Posted By Richard Sims on 07 Mar 2013 10:29 PM
L Bear Here is one link third party

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/research/detailed_papers/thermal/index.html


(Walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides) (SCIP)

(Concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides) ( ICF)
(Wall configurations with the concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides of the wall performed slightly better, however, their performance was significantly worse than walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides)


(Walls where the insulation material was concentrated on the interior side)
(Comparative analysis of sixteen different material configurations showed that the most effective wall assembly was the wall with thermal mass (concrete) applied in good contact with the interior of the building. Walls where the insulation material was concentrated on the interior side, performed much worse. Wall configurations with the concrete wall core and insulation placed on both sides of the wall performed slightly better, however, their performance was significantly worse than walls containing foam core and concrete shells on both sides)


Richard - If you read from the top down on this report, it would seem that the whole report is based on the knoxville study. If you back up on this forum you will find some reference to it. One house had a flood basement which required windows left open to prevent mould and rot. The other was dry. The rest of the paper you reference appears to be simulations based on this fatally flawed study. It does not appear that any of these results are from actual measurement.

The other study is much more interesting. The scip attachment is very different than the wire trusses I'm use to seeing. One would think if the x section of steel per square foot of panel for the anchor in the study was similair to the accumulated sections of steel in the trusses, then the study would still hold some validity.

I'm very surprised that there is almost no difference the the surface temp in near proximity to the anchor as to the surface midway between anchors. Might this be ascribe to the conductivity of the metal bar to which the anchor is attached? On the other hand when comparing the same thermocouple location on wall P1 and wall P2 (P2 is attached to the anchor, P1 is in the foam at the same location - page 72 and 73) there is only 1.2 degree difference. This would indicate that the steel is transferring only that 1.2 degree more than the foam transmits. This with the delta t being over 70ºf. This is mind boggling! To me something just doesn't seem right.

and then theres the fiberglass tie results??? The P3 wall performs better than the reference wall.

Bear in mind that these test are in a calibrated box not a guarded box. Also this test is almost 26 years old and test procedures and our understanding of materials have change. That in it self would have a bearing on the calibration.


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08 Mar 2013 12:57 AM
Alice Firehall - now this is interesting. I sure wish I could find actual operating costs. http://yourhub.denverpost.com/Page/YourHub/UGC/78/7891/78913_/78913___/78913/Post/2010/01/78913_10272_719148.xml
http://www.clearcreekfire.com/stations/stmarys.html http://www.thermomass.com/profiles/case_study.php?project=10580


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08 Mar 2013 09:44 AM
FBBP,
Thanks for posting the two links.  I could not get the second link to work even after cutting and pasting.


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08 Mar 2013 09:49 AM
Posted By FBBP on 08 Mar 2013 12:57 AM
Alice Firehall - now this is interesting. I sure wish I could find actual operating costs.

http://yourhub.denverpost.com/Page/YourHub/UGC/78/7891/78913_/78913___/78913/Post/2010/01/78913_10272_719148.xml
http://www.clearcreekfire.com/stations/stmarys.html

http://www.thermomass.com/profiles/case_study.php?project=10580




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08 Mar 2013 11:11 AM
TMass has been around long enough to been tested in the real world. Here is a real house in Las Vegas tested b y the Building Industry Research Alliance. https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:I8UV2ukT_AAJ:www.bira.ws/files/FaithPremierpres.ppt+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShvtI3LSt6yOxebBdPDmjLuJQ6P1p2s98fxJphKTtnjl9oQr2eKxjOLYrv-ps7yivVsjU6_k_Nv4DCZME_ZB-9E8QvoZ-yc4At8ab4DbRfnBvIylXsLDJFbhbsrucTQoKL_r7c4&sig=AHIEtbQOcXZcmPaL1E_k4J64sjiW0ZYzyA&pli=1

(My apologies. If it doesn't work, and you and have Power Point on your computer, lift out the www.bira.......ppt part of the url.)

The cliff notes :R10 TMass performed like R18 whole wall, or R30-35 stud cavity, thanks to its mass effect. We should say here that LV has a very favorable climate for thermal mass. It cut energy costs by 14.5 percent over BIRA's benchmark, which I believe is 2003 IECC or 2x4 R13. But that wasn't much savings in dollars In the primary (for LV) cooling season, Tmass reduced bills by $55. And while mass time shifted the peak heat load it was not enough to capitalize on time of day pricing; those bills would have been $1 more rather than $55 less..

There was a second more comprehensive project in Borrega Springs by Clarum construction: four homes, two Tmass, one regular SIP and a fourth 2x6 OVE construction. I wasn't able to find results in the time I have today.

Two points: If energy efficiency is your goal, mass walls aren't likely to have a huge payoff. A couple poorly placed, unshaded window in the LV house easily could eat up $55/yr in AC savings. In that situation, though, a mass home would be more comfortable. Max temp variance from set po int 75 degrees was 3 degrees vs 7 degrees. You'd need the mass explosed to the interior. And you'd see why pairing passive solar with internal mass could get you big savings and reasonable comfort in heating dominated climates.

A last point. That the Knoxville ICF house suffered fatal flaws is FBBP's opinion. The behavior of the sponsoring Insulated Concrete Forms Association suggests otherwise. As far as I can tell, the ICF trade group said nothing publicly about the test -- no complaints, no protests, nada. Nor has it redone the test in the intervening 13 years.


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08 Mar 2013 12:23 PM
Here is a link to the Borrego Springs Calif side-by-side. http://www.homeenergy.org/show/article/nav/coolingandair/id/760

The story discusses a set-ahead strategy, or precooling, as they call it. The homes were chilled to 72 degrees overnight under the most favorable delta Ts available in the California desert, after which the Tstat kicked in the compressor when the house rose to 80 degrees. The stud wall house coasted for four hours. The SIP house coasted for 10 hours. The Tmass house coasted throughout, until the chilling cycle resumed. But the Tmass walls cost $42.5k more than the studwalls while the SIP house cost $15.5k more. While it is possible TMass costs less in a lifecycle cost analysis, unless you know your grandkids will live there, or you are in a resale market that really, really prizes concrete and efficiency, this would be prepaid green, as in the bill is all yours.


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08 Mar 2013 12:36 PM

I am glad we are bringing up and talking about thermal mass.

Safe to say window placement can have a negative affect if improperly placed and designed.

Just as proper solar/ thermal gain and eco cooling designs can have a major positive affect not possible without Thermalmass or alternate thermal storage method.


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08 Mar 2013 09:43 PM
But the Tmass walls cost $42.5k more than the studwalls while the SIP house cost $15.5k more.


For something probably closer to $5-10K, one could do some type of active thermal storage (eg, water tank). And it wouldn't require any deviations in interior temperature to work.


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09 Mar 2013 09:10 AM
Tilt-up Tmass costs are location-specific and probably haven't dropped for distant construction sites. Transportation costs are the big hit, and the NV and CA houses were built before the major run up in fuel prices. Site poured should be competitive in basement country but you'd need to find an adventurous contractor.

Jonr's point about water storage isn't as simple or cheap as (nonTmass) mass in the desert SW, where these houses are located. A set-ahead strategy coupled with time of day pricing could result in major savings in those houses without any loss in comfort, assuming that set points err on the side of "cold."

His point doesn't quite fit passive solar in the north either. The important role of mass is buffering, tempering periods of high insolation. Active storage cannot substitute. After a year in an aggressive passive solar house (40 linear feet of 6' windows in the great room), I would say that energy savings are secondary. Both the wife and I feel claustrophobic in conventional houses, even huge ones. And I'd say that a small house that lives bigger than large ones is a higher order of green, eh?


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09 Mar 2013 09:41 AM
A set-ahead strategy coupled with time of day pricing could result in major savings in those houses without any loss in comfort, assuming that set points err on the side of "cold."


72F is too cold and 80F is too hot. How do you come up with "no loss in comfort".


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09 Mar 2013 10:39 AM
Well, the Tmass walls never got to 80, so let's set out temp range at 70-76. The average diurnal swing in Borrego Springs in July and August is 75 to 107. I'm thinking you neighbors would find excuses to visit.


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09 Mar 2013 11:50 AM
BTW, FBBP, it's not hard to use passive solar and mass to design a building that can't freeze. My garage has an east-facing 16' door with frosted lexan windows. With no heat, it has never been colder than 49.


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09 Mar 2013 12:34 PM
Posted By toddm on 09 Mar 2013 11:50 AM
BTW, FBBP, it's not hard to use passive solar and mass to design a building that can't freeze. My garage has an east-facing 16' door with frosted lexan windows. With no heat, it has never been colder than 49.


With outside temps at minus 35ºf??


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09 Mar 2013 02:22 PM
First off what counts is the average daily temperature. In my part of the world, it's 32 in January, so the combination of mass plus passive solar results in at least plus 17 for my garage. Alice is near Boulder, which is a bit warmer at a mean Jan average of 33 degrees.http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMONtavt.pl?coboul Gettysburg Pa and Denver are roughly the same latitude. Boulder is higher in elevation but much sunnier, which, of course, makes freeze proof design easier.


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09 Mar 2013 04:02 PM
Alice is above Idaho Springs by Saint Mary's Glacier.
Boulder is like a banana belt compared to ST Mary's Glacier area.
.
Alice is well above Boulder and another zone or two colder.
Looks close by map but when you can go from 5,000 elevation to 12,000 in less than an hour climate zones change fast.
Alice is 10,000+ Denver/Boulder are 5,000 +/- less in elevation .


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09 Mar 2013 05:52 PM
My bad. But according to the Denver Post, they claim zero energy with what sounds like solar hot water circulating in the concrete.


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09 Mar 2013 09:06 PM
We do get a lot of sunny days. Today 32 and 10" of snow tomorrow Sunny high 40s? then fifty's to sixty's till the next snow.


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12 Mar 2013 12:00 AM
Can you add Thermal mass skin to a ICF Like a SCIP Panel? If so there is your un-insulated thermal mass. You have to finish the wall anyway, you can not just leave the foam unfinished.


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12 Mar 2013 02:45 AM
European General guidelines for using thermal mass
in concrete buildings.

http://www.bibm.eu/Documenten/ECP%20General%20Guidelines%20for%20Using%20Thermal%20Mass%20in%20Concrete%20Buildings%20(PM%2029%2004%2009).pdf


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12 Mar 2013 01:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crxtqSVTeLk&feature=youtu.be Pretty cool continuous panel construction line. It will take education and more supply like this for SCIPS to get a good foothold in the U.S.


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12 Mar 2013 02:42 PM
slenzen Thanks I made my own panels I did it once and that was enough at four per hour. Picture on left me making the first panel. Picture on right making the first 12" deep floor panels with 18" roof to follow. It took so much more force we had to weld more supports and stiffeners.


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12 Mar 2013 04:44 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 12 Mar 2013 12:00 AM
Can you add Thermal mass skin to a ICF Like a SCIP Panel? If so there is your un-insulated thermal mass. You have to finish the wall anyway, you can not just leave the foam unfinished.


Yeah - its call brick ;-))


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17 Mar 2013 02:26 AM
Posted By FBBP on 12 Mar 2013 04:44 PM
Posted By Richard Sims on 12 Mar 2013 12:00 AM
Can you add Thermal mass skin to a ICF Like a SCIP Panel? If so there is your un-insulated thermal mass. You have to finish the wall anyway, you can not just leave the foam unfinished.


Yeah - its call brick ;-))


FBBP It was a serious question but mag board sip panel may solve the problems faster and cleaner than ICFs.


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24 Mar 2013 08:54 AM
Can you add Thermal mass skin to a ICF Like a SCIP Panel?


Sure, you can also apply shotcrete to an ICF. But you might as well use SCIPs....


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28 Mar 2013 01:50 AM
2005 Investigation of wind projectile http://www.m2dominicana.com/fichas/May_2_Final_Report_ING.pdf


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29 Mar 2013 09:40 PM
What sort of coating would one apply to a SCIP roof with a low slope? I want to basically paint a waterproofing onto my planned roof. Thorolastic appears to be for vertical walls, but that is the current suggestion of the architect/builder.


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29 Mar 2013 10:28 PM
Posted By cathsand on 29 Mar 2013 09:40 PM
What sort of coating would one apply to a SCIP roof with a low slope? I want to basically paint a waterproofing onto my planned roof. Thorolastic appears to be for vertical walls, but that is the current suggestion of the architect/builder.


Take a look at http://www.foundationarmor.com/armo...te-sealer/  

If there are no cracks in the concrete and the PSI is around 4500, then more than likely you will not need any waterproofing.  My suggestion is to let the roof cure for at least 30 days, then pressure wash the concrete roof while checking for leaks.  If no leaks, then waterproofing can be postponed.

I mention Armor L3000 because it penetrates the concrete.  UV and foot traffic on the roof should not degrade it.


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29 Mar 2013 10:33 PM
Elastomeric roof paint?


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30 Mar 2013 09:09 AM
Consider something like "Sika® 1+ Liquid Water Resisting Admixture". Possibly two-part polyurethane painted on.


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07 Sep 2014 09:04 AM
Hi Cath,

I used a BASF product called SonoGuard.  It goes down in two phases a base coat that stays relatively soft and a topcoat that can stand up to traffic.  It's intended as a coating for parking structures so it's incredibly tough. I used a 3100 psi power washer to remove some concrete overspray and it didn't touch the coating even at point blank range.  BASF makes a different formulation for sloped surfaces but it's the same price (~$180 for 5 gal)



It's been on the roof since Feb and it immediately stopped water intrusion at the roof surface.  I still had issues at the roof wall joint thanks to Mr Bill but that has been solved by a truly professional concrete company I brought in.

jim


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07 Sep 2014 09:40 AM
I've not contributed to this forum for many months.  Much discussion on thermal and heat transfer properties of SCIP.  So I present the following empirical data.  The two thermal images attached were made with a FLIR IR camera.

******Disclaimer*****
While this camera has an built in self calibration feature it has not been independently calibrated by a metrology lab.  Absolute readings should be treated with caution.  Relative readings (differences in temperature) are probably reasonably accurate.
*****End Disclaimer***

The pictures are of the same spot on inner and outer surface of a South facing SCIP wall which uses 6 inch EPS.  The outer Wythe is 2 inches of shotcrete plus a 1 inch of gunite overlay.  The inner Wythe is 1.5 inches of shotcrete.  Only a dehumidifier is running on the inside.  Pictures were taken around 1400 on 4 Sept in P.C. Florida.  Sunny skies, outside air temperature 93°F, Inside air temperature 85°F. 



The outside wall is bare concrete so is not reflecting as well as it will when it's finished (white).  The roof directly above is finished (white) and was showing a surface temperature of 99°F at the same time.  I'm currently re-evaluating my inside insulation strategy.


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07 Sep 2014 10:31 AM
More labeling on the pictures would be helpful. What is your conclusion from them?


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07 Sep 2014 11:30 AM
Sorry, couldn't figure out how to attach labels.  The image on the left is the outside solar heated surface, image on the right is the same spot on the inside of the building.  This is a visible light picture of the same area taken several weeks earlier.  The IR images are centered six feet below the roof line near the middle of this image.



My conclusion is the inside wall is going to be much warmer in the summertime than I expected.  The emissivity of bare concrete implies that at 86°F that wall can pump as much as 380 Watts/M^2 if it's radiating into a black body.   The power transfer into an air conditioned space will be less but still significant. 

I think at a minimum I'm going to have to add insulation to the South wall.  The bare furring on that wall is visible in the right image of the original post.

Interested in any opinions on the subject.

jim


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07 Sep 2014 12:00 PM
The interior wall is at 87.3F mostly because the interior is at 85F. But these figures are not what you want to use when determining btu transfer into the interior when using AC.

For example, even a box with 12" of insulation and 100F on the exterior will eventually reach 100F on the interior. But so what.

White paint is going to save quite a bit (when the sun is shining), but shade from overhangs or trees is even better (plus they work with windows).


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07 Sep 2014 01:02 PM
You are of course correct about any system eventually reaching equilibrium.

My problem is I can't prove my heat transfer is from air infiltration or radiant heating. 

My initial thought was that the window and door bucks weren't sealed properly and we were exchanging air with the outside.  We have been eliminating those air exchange sources and after the furring lumber dried out we were able to keep the relative humidity below 55% initially using portable air conditioners then only a dehumidifier.  The inside temperature however continues to follow the outside air temperature with perhaps an 8°F offset over a fairly short time constant.

The windows are being wrapped with a vapor barrier/architectural foam treatment primarily to address waterproofing but this will also completely eliminate them as a source of air exchange.  I'll still have the doors as a possible source. 

My immediate dilemma is the dry wallers are ready to start as soon as the window crew is done.  I'll have to decide on the additional insulation before they start and before the doors can be vapor sealed.  I'm only considering the sun facing wall and a reflective insulation product tacked to the tops of the studs.

jim


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07 Sep 2014 01:39 PM
I'd use gaskets (not caulk or spray foam) as much as possible and then use a blower door to test for air infiltration. I'd think about the thermal bridging caused by the stucco on the window/door edges. I wouldn't mess with radiant barriers or adding more insulation to the center wall areas (assuming no significant thermal bridging there).


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07 Sep 2014 01:48 PM
If I'm reading the pictures right, the temperature gradient matches the colour of the the concrete. Red in the darker areas, yellow in the whiter areas. How are the inner and outer wythes connected?


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07 Sep 2014 01:57 PM
The visible light picture was taken immediately after the gunite cover was applied so it was still expelling and incorporating water.  It doesn't have the same color variations today.

Wythes are connected with Galvanized Z-trusses on 6 inch centers.  I looked for evidence of heat transfer by conduction especially on the inner Wythe but can't see anything at six inch intervals.  The inner Wythe is thermally uniform, shows random variations of a few tenths of degrees.   A North facing wall that never sees sunlight and another interior SCIP wall that isn't exposed to the outside in anyway are about two degrees cooler.  This supports jonr's contention that the inner Wyeth is being heated mostly by inside air not by heat transfer from the outer Wythe.  His argument makes sense in light of the other evidence I have.

jim


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07 Sep 2014 02:06 PM
Posted By jrobx on 07 Sep 2014 11:30 AM


My conclusion is the inside wall is going to be much warmer in the summertime than I expected.  The emissivity of bare concrete implies that at 86°F that wall can pump as much as 380 Watts/M^2 if it's radiating into a black body.   The power transfer into an air conditioned space will be less but still significant. 

I think at a minimum I'm going to have to add insulation to the South wall.  The bare furring on that wall is visible in the right image of the original post.

Interested in any opinions on the subject.

jim

On you SCIP core, do the steel rebar/wire trusses transition from the interior side, then through the EPS foam, and finally exit out the exterior side? I know this is then covered with ShotCrete. Could this type of design create a thermal bridge from the outside to the inside due to the steel trusses that are not thermally broken?

The SCIPs that I have seen have these steel wire trusses every 4-6 inches and this would seem to be a thermal bridge.


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13 Sep 2014 10:37 PM
Hey Jim, the house is looking great! I tried posting a pic of mine, but can't from my iPad. Do you suppose your gunite crew could come to Fayetteville.


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13 Sep 2014 10:40 PM
As to thermal bridging, personally I think we are overthinking that. With 10 inches of foam sandwiched in there, you might have some conduction, but it is far outweighed by your insulation. I wouldn't insulate further.


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14 Sep 2014 06:23 AM
Posted By cathsand on 13 Sep 2014 10:40 PM
As to thermal bridging, personally I think we are overthinking that. With 10 inches of foam sandwiched in there, you might have some conduction, but it is far outweighed by your insulation. I wouldn't insulate further.

The lack of thermal variation on the inner wall suggests that is the case.  I'll send you contact info for Prestige.


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14 Sep 2014 10:47 PM
Read your entire blog. I have learned a great deal here and reading the blog too.
Thanks for posting...


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28 Oct 2014 09:24 AM
glad to see some updates! Was intrigued by this build!

Knowing what you know now, would you do it all over again? What would you do different? (edit) after reading your blog updates, how do you not have any F-bombs plastered all over it! LOL congrats on the patience and perserverence!!!


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30 Oct 2014 07:12 AM
Posted By slenzen on 28 Oct 2014 09:24 AM
glad to see some updates! Was intrigued by this build!

Knowing what you know now, would you do it all over again? What would you do different? (edit) after reading your blog updates, how do you not have any F-bombs plastered all over it! LOL congrats on the patience and perserverence!!!
There are hundreds of things I'd have done differently which I'm compiling for the final Post in the blog. 

I guess the biggest would be to not use SCIP everywhere.  It just isn't practical on overhead surfaces.  I'd go with my initial idea of a conventional steel beam skeleton with a steel deck floor and roof system.  I'd also not attempt a non mainstream construction from 1500 miles away.



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31 Oct 2014 02:03 AM
Your blog stated:

"What do you do when your interior walls look like a North Korean prison camp?

As I have previously mentioned the finish left me by the original builder/architect was not what I expected.  His original plan which was part of his basis for the Guaranteed Maximum Price Contract was that the inner  concrete surfaces would be regular enough to finish with common plaster that would yield a surface as smooth as drywall which could then be painted or finished to taste at low cost.  The reality was far different."


The Gunite/Shotcrete looked really bad and the interior and exterior finish they left behind was tough on the eyes. It looked like it had started to flake off and exposed the metal rebar. While you state it was "cosmetic" in nature, it sure looks like it cost a fortune to fix these mistakes. Care to share how much $ was spent fixing these issues?


There seemed to be a lot of water intrusion problems with the SCIPs. If you had to do it again would you choose SCIPs again or maybe ICF, tilt-up concrete?






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31 Oct 2014 06:57 AM
Posted By Lbear on 31 Oct 2014 02:03 AM
Your blog stated:

"What do you do when your interior walls look like a North Korean prison camp?

As I have previously mentioned the finish left me by the original builder/architect was not what I expected.  His original plan which was part of his basis for the Guaranteed Maximum Price Contract was that the inner  concrete surfaces would be regular enough to finish with common plaster that would yield a surface as smooth as drywall which could then be painted or finished to taste at low cost.  The reality was far different."


The Gunite/Shotcrete looked really bad and the interior and exterior finish they left behind was tough on the eyes. It looked like it had started to flake off and exposed the metal rebar. While you state it was "cosmetic" in nature, it sure looks like it cost a fortune to fix these mistakes. Care to share how much $ was spent fixing these issues?


There seemed to be a lot of water intrusion problems with the SCIPs. If you had to do it again would you choose SCIPs again or maybe ICF, tilt-up concrete?




The interior cosmetics were corrected by furring and drywall (post 42)

I'm pretty sure I never said I had exposed "rebar" in the blog  if I did that was a mistake. I did have exposed mesh but that was almost exclusively around window and door bucks (Post 38).  The shotcrete itself never flaked it was the "brown coat" that the builder used to try to fix the cosmetics on the exterior that did.

The water intrusion problems weren't specifically due to SCIP it was the result of not adequately considering water intrusion paths during design and construction of roof wall joints.  The worst offender was the acute angled (34° pitch) facet at the North wall.  To that add my decision on placement of 8 inch deep windows midway in a wall system that is up to 14 inches thick.  I'd have had all the same issues with ICF and I never concidered tilt up.  All if this could have been avoided had the joints and wall penetrations been designed and constructed with water intrusion in mind.

Not considering schedule impacts fixing all of the above cost about $120K.  As I said before I'd do things a lot differently if I was starting over.



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31 Oct 2014 11:15 AM
Posted By jrobx on 31 Oct 2014 06:57 AM

Not considering schedule impacts fixing all of the above cost about $120K.  As I said before I'd do things a lot differently if I was starting over.


Complete SCIP construction costs were $120k or just the cosmetic fixes?


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31 Oct 2014 12:05 PM
I guess the biggest would be to not use SCIP everywhere.  It just isn't practical on overhead surfaces.


It will be interesting to hear more. Most SCIPs homes don't have a problem with overhead surfaces.


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31 Oct 2014 12:46 PM
Posted By jonr on 31 Oct 2014 12:05 PM
I guess the biggest would be to not use SCIP everywhere.  It just isn't practical on overhead surfaces.


It will be interesting to hear more. Most SCIPs homes don't have a problem with overhead surfaces.

If I understand it correctly the problem was the original beam design required a depth of concrete past the rebar on the bottom (the overhead surface) which was too thick to support itself when wet. So the issue is just at beams (or would we call them lintels in a SCIP).


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31 Oct 2014 01:35 PM
the original beam design required a depth of concrete past the rebar on the bottom (the overhead surface) which was too thick to support itself


I wonder if adding some lightweight steel mesh an inch or two from the rebar would add support for the wet concrete. Or perhaps adding fibers to the concrete. Apparently yes:


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31 Oct 2014 05:20 PM

The SCIP technology used in this project was limited to one type of panel that was used for the walls, floor and roof.  Engineers unfamiliar with SCIPs decided to include reinforced concrete beams under the horizontal surfaces to carry the load.  This added to the cost and complexity of the project since the beams had to be shot from the sides and bottom.

Panels with beam pockets designed for floors and roof are available from Gulf Concrete Technology that can span up to 32'.  Temporary shoring is required about every 5'.  Since the beam pockets are within the panel, rebar and concrete is added from the top just like Insul-deck.



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31 Oct 2014 07:48 PM
Alton is correct.  The engineer insisted on five #5's in the bottom of each beam 2 inches below the foam and covered with an additional 2 inches below that, a four inch solid concrete case.  At my beam dimensions that worked out to 100 lbs of wet concrete per linear foot.  I wish we'd had the beam pockets Alton described.

The builder also had problems with the bottoms of horizontal SCIP panels.  I attribute this to his and his workers lack of experience.  Perhaps others don't have this problem.


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31 Oct 2014 09:54 PM
You cannot add anything to wet concrete to increase its strength. Until it sets, it has no strength in itself, so mesh, fibres or more bar cannot contribute to its strength. As Alton indicates, it requires temporary shoring.
In some cases, you can pour the beams first with limited shoring and then they will support the rest.


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31 Oct 2014 10:04 PM
You can add all kinds of things to wet concrete/shotcrete to increase its wet strength. And of course it has some strength before it sets - otherwise you couldn't apply it to overhead surfaces at any thickness.


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31 Oct 2014 11:18 PM
The house pictured has three ceilings and poured floors. First and foremost it was designed with no poured columns or beams. The roof and floors clear span 25'. Look at the front with the big windows and no poured beams. Some engineers obviously are not familiar or comfortable with SCIPs and add unnecessary structure. Merline Vandyke of Lakewood CO. has been designing with SCIP panels since the 80s. I considered bidding a SCIP home that was a wood post and beam home with SCIP curtain walls and the engineer still had poured beams below the wood beams carrying the roof. The extra trouble and cost of pouring the beams made me decide not to bid the project. Its a learning curve finding the right mix for ceilings. we added silica fume, water reducers and other additives to reduce rebound and help it stick. I hope to get the footings poured before the snow shuts my next SCIP house down till next spring. That will allow us to set panels next spring when its still to cool to shoot. That gives us a month head start at least. I will have tried GCT mix before I do the roof and decks. I have heard the GCT mix sticks better and helps eliminate problems in ceiling applications. SCIP panel finishing is a hard learning curve. Then the ah ha moment. I was given some bad advice in the beginning. Fortunately working for the number two apartment builder in San Diego gave me the education to know enough about vertical pneumatically and hand applied concrete

Attachment: 36_ave1.jpg

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31 Oct 2014 11:35 PM
Not sure why images are not loading this time ERRRR

Attachment: 36_ave1.jpg
Attachment: 36_ave_roof_deck.jpg

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09 Jul 2015 08:40 AM
The construction phase of my SCIP project is finished.  It's been an ordeal but I'm pleased with the final product.

http://waterfrontbuildinginpanamacity.blogspot.com

I know everyone on this forum is interested in energy efficiency and I'll do my best to record data.  There were still contractors on-site with nests of extension cords and the outer walls were dark concrete but, the first five months of power use ran from 954 kWh in Feb to 1522 in June.   July will be my first month of "regular" power consumption with painted reflective walls instead of bare concrete/stucco.

Not good for a direct comparison but this is about 1/2 of my consumption rate in Tucson for a conventionally built/insulated home of equal square footage.


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11 Jul 2015 11:42 AM
Looks great. Note that some white paints have 1/2 the solar heat gain of others - despite looking identical.


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12 Sep 2016 08:38 AM
There has been a great deal of discussion here about relative energy savings of the various "insulated" construction methods.  I now have 18 months of actual data from my recently completed SCIP home (see the blog hyperlink in previous posts).  The first 6 Months of data should be discounted as there were many contractors and nests of extension cords on the site.  The take-away from the last twelve Months is that I consume an average of 1050 KWH per month.  The largest fraction of my electrical load isn't air conditioning related so I don't think any meaningful inferences can be made regarding relative efficiency of SCIP versus other construction methods based on these data.




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30 Sep 2016 03:15 PM
jrobx,

Thanks for posting the chart.


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05 Oct 2016 10:17 AM
I admire OP's courage and forbearance. That said, it is not enough to stick to building systems that are common and understood in the local building community, as he advises (wisely enough on its face.) ICF and geothermal are reasonably common in most areas. But they are rarely competitive markets. Bid as custom work, they do not deliver the other green -- cost savings that make them practical even in periods of cheap energy. DIYers can press the edge because they mostly risk time and effort (!?) rather than money. Even if Murphy's Law intrudes, they haven't given up much in payback terms. If you dismiss ICF as not DIYable as I did -- mistakes are VERY permanent -- there aren't many options for concrete homes.

SCIP holds great promise as a factory-built, tilt-up answer. Site built ....


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08 Mar 2017 03:17 PM
From what I've gathered from my own research and forums like this one, I think concrete sandwich walls have great potential when done properly.  Managing the cladding over ICFs sounds like more than I want to deal with given the already relatively high cost, and SIPs have similar drawbacks in the same ways. 
-Tilt-ups - great on manufacturing consistency, rough on delivery costs and problems with contractor assembly.
-composite walls - seems like a lot of them have thermal bridging problems.  Then there are the issues with finding a contractor that can do it correctly.
-sandwich walls - inner wall (or whichever is considered structural) is likely pretty thick.  Maybe easier to construct since the outer wall is essentially just concrete cladding attached to exterior insulation?  Maybe easier to manage getting an engineer stamp given that it's not a composite wall?

Here's what I've come to after my dives through ICF world, SIP world, and even looking at steel-building barndominium shells around much smaller interior building frame (which have a lot of draw since I don't do well with sunlight). 

The sandwich wall seems like a good plan, especially if you're willing to punch the wall ties through the insulation boards yourself, and if you can find the right contractor.  The composite wall ties seem to have solved the thermal bridging problem as well. 

If anyone has opinions/tips about our thoughts here, I'd love to hear them!
-Concrete sandwich walls, structural wall to the interior.  Single story with a basement (same construction).  Hopefully daylight/walkout if the terrain allows based on the orientation we want. 
-Simple rectangular exterior, simple gable roof (hopefully will significantly reduce costs).  Steel trussed roof, vented attic(no electrical, HVAC, or other penetrations or equipment, minimal storage, exterior entrance only - per Lstiburek at BSC).  Metal roofing - white.
-No wall cladding on exterior or interior - only on interior framed walls. 
-Industrial-styled placement of conduit, etc - across high ceilings, exposed.  Minimal wall penetrations, then mounted directly to the concrete (or the interior wall clad).
-Concrete foundation/basement floor
-Vancouver WA/Portland Oregon area (zone 5 or Marine 4)
-Minisplits (2 or 3, depending upon layout) and woodstove supplemental, separate dehumidifier (read BSC testing of residences in TX that seemed to show that separated dehumidifiers inside the envelope yielded better results for lower cost, which has been our experience here in the swamp we call NC)

It seems like the cost of SCIP here would be at least somewhat offset by the lack of any required (or desired) cladding, and the simplicity of the design should lend to less cost and less likelihood of mistakes/problems with the exterior shell.  Especially if we are willing to do the GC piece ourselves, as well as the assembly of the foam panels (punching the wall ties).  It also seems like construction time (and cost) would be less given that much of the interior finishing will be on us after we get the basics for a certificate of occupancy.  The goals - low-maintenance, strength, resistance to insects/mold/weather, tight building envelope, clearspan roof assembly so that the interior walls are relatively changeable if desired later.  I really would love to find an old brick warehouse shell, but since we don't want anything close to living in-town, the likelihood of that is pretty dismal, and concrete is pretty beautiful too. 

Also, any tips on steel windows?  Is there a way to get them (even if it's buying odd pieces here and there that don't even remotely match) that won't kill our budget? 

 






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08 Aug 2017 12:18 AM
those are Amazing load bearing results on your own panels. Do you have any more info on your press, scips anywhere that I can study. I am ready to build my own SCIPs.


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01 Feb 2021 05:42 AM
jrobx,

Hats off to you for your perseverance through this project. I just spent an entire day going through your posts and I want to thank you for all the information you have shared. I was a little sad about the entire furring decision you made which re-introduced wood into the house and almost seemed like adding stick framing (not structural I know) in addition to all the work with SCIPs.





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