bag concrete vs delivery
Last Post 18 Jan 2007 07:43 PM by ICF372. 16 Replies.
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concrete nutUser is Offline
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11 Dec 2006 03:17 PM
Any reason why one person can not mix own concrete on the site from bags vs ordering and pumping? Current mixers can handle up to 10 bags. Might be able to pour small sections and skip bracing or less of it. Pump trucks run around $700 here. We can mix alot of concrete for $3000 per lift. Eric
ICF372User is Offline
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11 Dec 2006 04:01 PM
I've heard of redi mix truck drivers using left over concrete to fill there own basement forms.

But it's a bad bad idea!!!!!
Concrete will dry on the rebar instead of curing as intended .

Eldon Howe
Eldon Howe<br>Howe Construction

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<br><br>Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE .
walltechUser is Offline
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11 Dec 2006 07:55 PM
Eric, please explain your $3000.00 per "lift".
Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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11 Dec 2006 08:37 PM

The only reasons I can think of for going with readymix and a pump are better quality and lower cost.   If you pour a cement mixer worth of concrete down the ICF forms, then pour the next batch next to the first, etc., by the time you get around to the starting point, you'll have two problems.  Actually, three problems if you have a county inspector, architect, or other quality control person on site.  They would shut you down.

1) Cold joints.  Unless you're back around in 45 minutes or less, depending on the mixture and temperature, your going to have cold joints.  Not a problem if strength, longevity, and water resistance aren't an issue for you.  Remember, no stopping all the way to the top.  I've seen several retaining walls and partial basements poured this way with great success, but it took several guys humping from sun-up to sun-down.  Can't imagine doing a single story ICF of more than about 450 square feet and only then if the mixer is somehow higher than the wall.

2)  Air pockets.  When you get back around to your starting point, even if there is no cold joint, it's very likely that gobs of concrete will have landed and solidified on the rebar, tie wires, support benches, etc.  Now, you're going to be trying to fill underneath all of the obstructions this method creates.  Not good.  You coat the first gobs on the second go-around, so they can be fairly large on a tall wall.

As to cost, I don't see the savings.  Buying bags of concrete can't possibly compete with delivery, even if you can get the bags delivered free and placed right where you want them.  Every time you pick up a bag, even if only to lift up the the mixer, you'll say to yourself "why didn't I just pay for readymix and get it over with."  Be sure to calculate how many times you'll say that to yourself before you decide to use bags.  If you get to use a wheelbarrow, you'll say it even more times and with some cursing.  Bags are for jobs less than a yard and farther than 50 miles from the plant.

Mark Fleming

smartwallUser is Offline
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11 Dec 2006 09:07 PM
third grade math says it would only take 889 80lb. bags of concrete mix to fill 1200 sq ft of 6inch forms.
concrete nutUser is Offline
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12 Dec 2006 08:36 AM
Lifting buckets of concrete 10' probably 3000 times sounds like a lot of work, but maybe not for 4 or 5 people (read $10/hr)

Cold joints are common in ICF houses, between footing and wall and between levels.

All the foundations poured in my neighborhood are a 100 years old, I don't see anyproblems with cold joints.

Concrete is strong on compression, but weak in tension, hense the steel.

You actually might have less voids.

900 bags of concrete is getting close to $2000, so not much in saving there, if any

But potentially use less bracing.

Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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12 Dec 2006 12:37 PM
I'd be much more willing to bag pour a foundation than a wall. Walls are subjected to much different loads than foundations and footings. Here in Seismic D country, I've poured ICF cold joints at the footing level only with a fairly elaborate keyway. The exception was a wall with a full 5" interior slab to lock in the bottom at the cold joint. The backfill on the exterior also came up above the footing all the way around. That made me more comfortable than having the wall held in place only by rebar "shear pins."

Steel provides the tensile strength. Steel passing through a cold joint that is exposed to water provides tensile strength for many years as the rebar rusts. Question is "how many years do you want?" When the big one hits, the cold joint provides a hinge right where the rebar is rusted out and it's tensile strengh compromised. The cold joint can also provide a shear point, again, right where the rebar is compromised and because it's a shear force, tensile strength doesn't help. Might not be a problem or might be somebody else's problem. Since it's not too difficult to avoid cold joints, that would be my first choice.

Mark Fleming
concrete nutUser is Offline
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12 Dec 2006 01:30 PM
Geeze Mark.

Amazing that most large department boxes and apts are made with cmu, lots of cold joints. When is the last time you saw a wall 'hinge'

My front yard is held up by a 100 yo concrete wall, 7 feet of soil, no drainage, lots of cold joints, lots of leaning over, no steel and

NO HINGE! In fact, kind of bending over as well.

I agree that pouring your own walls with concrete bags probably kind of sucks.

They just tore down the largest monopour in the world, 13 stories, here in Seattle. No pumpers for that guy, lots of cold joints, lots of style, no leaking, hinging.

Gorgeous building as well.

I don't know. Just exploring different ideas. Might be able to do less shoring and pour slower. We poured 3 yards and one of my workers, poured in two days and it came out much cheaper than renting a pumper truck. We had a crappy, one bag per load mixer as well.

Thomas Edison lost all his money on custom, concrete houses in New York and Jersey.. Some are still standing. Cold and leaking, though.
All hand mixed.

http://flyingmoose.org/truthfic/edison.htm



Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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12 Dec 2006 04:30 PM

Last time I saw a wall hinge failure was the Nisqually quake in Seattle.  Surprised you missed that.  There were several of them. 

There's a great study of reinforced concrete wall failures that used to be available on the web.  They had great names for the types of failures ("double-hinge pancake" was my favorite).  I think it was a HUD study, but I know that one of the sponsors was a search and rescue organization, because they tend to go into the crumpled buildings.  I may still have a link to the site somewhere.  I printed out a hard copy, but it would even be more difficult to find in my files.

I'm not saying that every wall with cold joints will fail.  Some, like you point out, have been around for years.  Most, as you didn't point out, could not be built today because of code standards. 

Anyone trying to save money by using bags, be sure to tell your architect that you're going to pour from inconsistant bag mixes in 145 lifts over 7 days.  My guess is that the design and rebar schedule will change dramatically (assuming that the architect doesn't quit).  There go the cost savings.

Mark

Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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12 Dec 2006 04:35 PM
What was the building in Seattle that they tore down?

If you've seen the patent for the Edison homes, one of the details is a complex conveyor for feeding concrete to the second floor.  It looks like they had continuous pours in mind.

Mark
OKBlockerUser is Offline
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13 Dec 2006 11:08 AM
If this is below grade...........absolutely NOT!

I f this is above grade.........plan out your pours where you can mix 100 bags in a  day and see how it goes.

Allow proper vertical dowels out of one lift into another and you should be okay.

You can get a lot of help with a couple of cases of beer and BBQ!
jredburnUser is Offline
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13 Dec 2006 07:59 PM
Dear Nut
Sit down and calculat how many bags you must buy to make a cubic bag of concrete. Multiply that by the sales price + tax + delivery charges + cost to rent/buy a mixer + the trip to the chirocraker to get your back put back in place and you will see that redimix is really cheaper. A $700 Pump will place all your concrete in 60 minutes instead of 60 days it would take you to do it by hand.

Regards,
Joe
McNeely BuildingUser is Offline
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14 Dec 2006 09:48 PM
Where does the $3000 per lift enter into the mix. I have poured a bunch of ICF walls --- the best at 65 yards in one pour. The pump cost for that was less than $1500. Mixing by hand is ALOT of work!!!!!!!
James EggertUser is Offline
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16 Dec 2006 09:26 AM
Personally, whenever the number of bags exceeds 12-15, I call a truck. Even the shortload charge is worth it when you factor in pickup, delivery, unloading, moving to mix area, picking up EACH bag again to mix, then moving the concrete probably in a wheelbarrow, extra cleanup, etc., etc.

Most bag mixes are a little lean on Portland, so you get to buy extra 80# bags of that also, then add in two shovels per bag!!

Quantity and quality concrete by bag in bulk just doesn't cut it. I don't care how many friends and children you have to be a labor force, it's ultimayely unsafe and a hassle!!
Take Care<br>Jim<br><br>Design/Build/Consulting<br>"Not So Big" Design Proponent
walltechUser is Offline
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16 Dec 2006 09:47 AM
Wow, I poured one ICF basement out of the cement truck (front end) back in 99' and I would never do that again.
I Can't imagine why you would want to bag it. The same goes for a grout pump.
enermizermuskokaUser is Offline
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13 Jan 2007 05:16 PM
Mixing bags??!!!... just to save cash??!...
Why I'd love to watch this while sittting with a box of pint's...
Half-way through why not just start chucking in to it a bunch of big rocks and stones as well, that would save some too...
Yea right... spare me, please.
Take care all,

C.Kerr
ICF372User is Offline
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18 Jan 2007 07:43 PM
Cris, It's good to here from ya again. it's been a while. Well I have to finally admit it. I've done this one. Although there is no real savings other than pump cost. On a small "Add on" such as in my case a few bonus left over forms, Maybe 2 yards or so. If you don't do the math and you don't count your shovels, buckets, scaffold climbing, then it's not so bad. But as Tim said only above ground.
Eldon Howe<br>Howe Construction

[email protected]

<br><br>Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE .
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