Cuts? Joints?
Last Post 15 Mar 2007 09:02 AM by walltech. 7 Replies.
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Gene DavisUser is Offline
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12 Mar 2007 09:13 PM
Whaddya do when your building corners need to be right on the numbers, and you start at those corners, dead on, laying out toward the middle, and end up with the last block space just a little more than a 48" block length.  To be exact, we have a 49-3/4" hole.

Whaddya do then?


jredburnUser is Offline
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12 Mar 2007 10:59 PM
Gene,
Take one block out and cut it to 24'. Take a new block and cut it to 25-3/4". Put them in the wall and stager the joints the same way on the next course.
Regards,
Joe


irnivekUser is Offline
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13 Mar 2007 12:37 AM
Such a scenario is usually called a vertical seam, or, ahem, a "bastard" joint. The aformentioned cut in your wall will not allow an interlock across the seam without changing dimension of the wall, therefore the cut must run continuos to the top of the wall...

Preferably place such a seam where a door will be installed, that way only a couple of courses of block are affected.
If no door, put the juncture where a window will be placed.

Do not cut the dimension exact, rather leave a little fudge room in case your footer/slab is out and wants to make your dimension larger. Plumb your corners PERFECTLY after the walls are stacked and then glue the seam solid.
Most quality ICF forms will require no wood scabbing for concrete placement.

Kevin


Cattail BillUser is Offline
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13 Mar 2007 10:48 AM
All forms are created so that the distance of foam between the ties is at its optimal strength, if you make this space longer the foam is not supported beyond the distance the manufacturer has created. It seems that some architect was messing with these plans or the people that would potentially build this structure1 3/4" could have been fixed in the plansto eliminate this problem. Granted quality forms as well as some not so quality forms have some fudge factor on this strength issue, but you run a big risk if you do not scab the seam on both sides so you have to ask your self is it worth shutting down the pour if the joint blows out. Generally speaking a plow out will cost $100 or more so you decide to scab or not to scab. In the rare case that we have a customer with this issue in their prints and it is usually 3 - 4 inches not 1 3/4" we will cut a section of form with the tie in it to fill the space and still scab both sides, and if possible place this in a window or door openig to reduce the amount of splice we have. The nice part of doing it this way is when we are done we have very little waste as we have used the majority of one form to fill the gap. In your case I would recommend that you cut some additional foam from the forms on either or both sides of the adjoining forms to allow for a larger spread on the piece you are installing in the splice.


Gene DavisUser is Offline
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13 Mar 2007 12:08 PM

Take a look at the pic here.  There is no way an architect or the designer (me) could predict, without detailed product knowledge of ICFs, what would happen in this situation.  As you can see, the wall run is in even inches, something we always do when designing foundations.

The problem is created more or less by all the ICF block makers, in that their INSIDE corner dimensions are not "modular."  In this case with Logix products, the block lengths coming out of the inside corner are either 4-1/4" or 20-1/4", thus the need for a filler block with a nominal 3/4" fractional end.

I think the double cut arrangement, one at 24 and the other at 25-3/4, will work just fine.  We'll be sure to scab it all up to reinforce the joints, that, after we glue them all.

The modular dimensions of the woodframed house that sits atop this foundation all revolves around its truss layout and 4x8 sheetply usage, and we are not about to mess ourselves up by fooling with the foundation dimensions just to avoid cut blocks.


Attachment: LogixBackwallCuts.jpg

James EggertUser is Offline
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13 Mar 2007 08:03 PM
Actually Gene, that's your job as designer to determine how the dimensions work! But, every one of us who have been burned by something like this all go on to check a little more next time!

These kind of things sometimes happen when the manufacturer is changed last minute!


Take Care<br>Jim<br><br>Design/Build/Consulting<br>"Not So Big" Design Proponent
Cattail BillUser is Offline
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14 Mar 2007 09:09 PM
All of us try to answer the questions that get presented on this site and usually with limited info we are not trying to condem a designer or an architect as we all use them. But in defense of the form manufacturer and designers we also design based on even numbers and yes we could design forms for any ones specific project, unfortunatley they would cost about $200 per form.


walltechUser is Offline
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15 Mar 2007 09:02 AM
Sorry to hear that the corners are not in full inch increments! After being a builder for 18 years before getting into the ICF industry my suggestion would be to bump the dimension to full increments. First off your playing with measurements on paper, which is irrelevant. All ICF's come off the line in imperfect conditions as far as to there lengths due to many reasons.If your dealing with a local dist. your block may have been stored in a heated warehouse for the winter or the same at the manufacture which will cause shrinkage. Designing to the modular lengths helps but line bumping will generally always be necessary and has no affect on the trusses at all. If you bump a little smaller let your plate hang the extra 1/4-1/2 split evenly between both opposite walls. If you have to bump larger set the truss heels back the same distance split 50/50 again. This is a simple issue to accomplish with the floor & trusses and makes the block work as intended.

Dave

Dave


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