Bob I
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1435
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| 18 Mar 2007 04:08 PM |
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ICF contractors: how do you finish the ICF foundation at and below ground level? I've used EPS on foundations and have applied troweled coating. Any other ideas? Also, I used to hear that insects would tunnel thru the EPS if the coating did not extend to 18" below grade, and have seen EPS where this happened. I also know from experience that ants can tunnel into the foam anywhere above grade. (Had a client complain years ago that they heard chewing noises in the foam panel roof above their head). How is this potential problem being addressed?
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| Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant |
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Cattail Bill
 Basic Member
 Posts:206
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| 19 Mar 2007 07:55 AM |
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Bob Most not all but most Foam block now uses a bromiad product in the foam to reduce this issue, however it is not as simple as that. Lets look at this the correct way. No matter what you use for a foundation product insects can enter your structure, they are simply using the insulation regardless of type as a nest. Using wood foundation the insects can eat and in some types of insects this is a food source, wood is the worst thing you can use for a foundation. with a concrete foundation regardless of it being block poured or ICF the insects can not chew through concrete. Lets assume that no matter which concrete product you use you will insulate that product the insects can enter the insulation and live in it. Again they did not chew through the concrete but the little buggers are like a good hunting dog they can sniff out a point to enter where they have access to the food source they are looking for. Generally this is at an opening like a wimdow or door or any other crack that they can get their little bodies through, so your problem is not the concrete wall or the product used to contain the concrete or insulation used in the product but it is an insect problem. We try to block as much access as we can but lets face the facts those little buggers are smarter than us, and the best thing is to protect the interior of your home by placing insect repelant or traps on the outside why invite them in for lunch put lunch with chemical on the outside.
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Cattail Bill
 Basic Member
 Posts:206
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| 19 Mar 2007 07:55 AM |
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Bob Most not all but most Foam block now uses a bromiad product in the foam to reduce this issue, however it is not as simple as that. Lets look at this the correct way. No matter what you use for a foundation product insects can enter your structure, they are simply using the insulation regardless of type as a nest. Using wood foundation the insects can eat and in some types of insects this is a food source, wood is the worst thing you can use for a foundation. with a concrete foundation regardless of it being block poured or ICF the insects can not chew through concrete. Lets assume that no matter which concrete product you use you will insulate that product the insects can enter the insulation and live in it. Again they did not chew through the concrete but the little buggers are like a good hunting dog they can sniff out a point to enter where they have access to the food source they are looking for. Generally this is at an opening like a wimdow or door or any other crack that they can get their little bodies through, so your problem is not the concrete wall or the product used to contain the concrete or insulation used in the product but it is an insect problem. We try to block as much access as we can but lets face the facts those little buggers are smarter than us, and the best thing is to protect the interior of your home by placing insect repelant or traps on the outside why invite them in for lunch put lunch with chemical on the outside.
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Bob I
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1435
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| 19 Mar 2007 08:08 AM |
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Insects will enter wood if/when it rots. insects are not a problem in this area in dry wood. They don't eat concrete,period. They do tunnel & nest in foam in its original state. How do we build with this material while avoiding chemicals? ("insect repelant or traps") Foam's use has increased dramaticly; there must be some "green" way to deal with this (?) What about extending the stucco barrier 18" into the soil? |
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| Bob Irving<br>RH Irving Homebuilders<br>Certified Passive House Consultant |
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Cattail Bill
 Basic Member
 Posts:206
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| 19 Mar 2007 09:24 AM |
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Thats fine and may eliminate or at least reduce the invasion but it will still not change the fact that the insects will look for a way in through openings and this is the area that needs to have extra attention when building with anything. You could extend the cement coat to the footing and then place a water proof over that if you wanted to, we try not to extend our cement coat below grade with out sealing it as most cement coat products will wick water if given the chance. I have not seen insect migration through any of the rubberized water proof products yet, perhaps it is to tuff of a material for them to chew through no scientific answer for that one any body else have one. All of the insect migration that I have seen is on the inside of the wall and the trail leads from a egress window into the foam, I am not saying that it is not happening on the outside but so far all we have seen is entry through openings. |
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walltech
 Basic Member
 Posts:390
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| 22 Mar 2007 09:26 PM |
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We don't see the insect issue at all! If the foundation portion from grade down is waterproofed properly along with a stucco product from grade up to the siding level there is no issue with insect mitigation Surely different areas in the US may have different insect issues but I don't believe this to be an issue in the northern states.
Dave |
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Cattail Bill
 Basic Member
 Posts:206
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| 23 Mar 2007 07:07 AM |
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Dave is absolutely correct in regards to water proofing and stucco finish, and I will add this little tid bit The 18" rule is a good rule but it to must be done correctly. Most cement coat type finishs if not all will wick moisture if they are exposed to a constant moisture so when you go below grade it is important that you seal the cement coat that will be below the grade.
As for the insect issue we do have very little of that issue up here in the north country but we still have some pockets of carpenter ant infestation, when they do get in it is very apparent in the foam products because of the density of the material they have to actually remove material to nest In the fiberglass material or most any of the blown materials used they can simply move it around a little to do their nesting so it is less obvious. Both of the methods of insulating are covered up so until you have a problem you will not know that they are in your walls, but they are. As I stated above the best we can do is to trap and destroy the insects before they get to the structure , I recently watched a program on the learning channel that dealt with this exact issue and what they where doing is placing traps with bait outside the perimeter of the buildings I would guess if you went on the learning channel web site you could purchase a video of that show or at least find out where you could get some more info on the methods used in that show. |
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