ICF concrete NIGHTMARE!!!
Last Post 23 Jun 2007 05:16 PM by icfcontractor. 12 Replies.
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groundupUser is Offline
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17 Jun 2007 01:10 PM

Here’s my nightmare, I worked for a couple months building my Icf’s on my 4000 sq ft house, just me and a friend taking our time doing it right not cutting any corners, everything’s to perfection, finally I was confident enough to call for the concrete, which required a large boom pump, about 6:20am the boom shows up with one of the owners of the company at the wheel, he starts setting up everything’s cool, his concrete trucks were running a little behind no biggie, 1st truck shows up around 8am, everyone’s ready so we start the pour, were going around the first lift and its perfect, 2nd truck perfect,3rd truck perfect, 4th truck was pumping a little dry but we were starting the final pour so whatever just kinda wrestled it down between the top 2 #4 rebar’s im still cool, everything’s going ok, here’s where it gets bad, 4th truck leaves, 5th trucks backing up and gets stuck in some sand that the previous trucks mucked up, now im getting nervous, everyone’s throwing down 2x12’s and trying to dig his axles out, ITS STUCK and isn’t moving, hours go by and finally they were able to pull him out with another truck, great for them but I need the truck back by the pump so I can get my frikin concrete, so while everyone was trying to get the truck free for all those hours the pump operator/owner allowed his pump to set up with concrete all in his hopper and boom, remember we started pumping around 8am and now its 8pm and the sun is coming down there beating on the pump trying to free it and I still can get a truck back there to finish, so now I have one wall that’s complete and all the rest are ¾ of the way up and im coming to the realization that im going to have to have a cold joint, that’s my sad story and here’s my question to the pro’s how bad is a cold joint pour to finish it and how responsible is the concrete company for this situation, I bought my ICF’s, Concrete, pump, bracing, everything from this company and I feel they really let me down with this, let me add that I am not wealthy by any means I worked hard to save up to do a nice ICF house for years and I feel that the house is going to lose all its integrity because of this cold joint pour that’s planed for Monday, please voice your opinions I would really appreciate any input. Thanks Guys

Chris JohnsonUser is Offline
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17 Jun 2007 04:59 PM
The cold joint is not in the greatest location, but fear not, as long as you have proper rebar spacing the area the cold joint connection will be solid when complete, if the area is below grade and you are waterproofing keep this in mind and make sure extra care is taken around the cold joint area. Another concern would be if you started a lintel and it is only partially finished I would be weary of that as well. Just out of curiousity is you cold joint fairly level or is it an ocean (up and down excessive amounts?), that in itself can be a problem and you should consult an engineer. As for the truck getting stuck, since you purchased everything from them they may cut you some slack, but generally speaking you are responsible once that truck crosses the curb line, you are responsible for supplying an adequete entry. Since they freed the truck with another I doubt there will a charge for it, now if it was a tow truck that could be a different story. What happened to the concrete in this stuck truck? I hope after that time frame it did not end up in the wall!!!
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
groundupUser is Offline
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17 Jun 2007 09:13 PM

Hey Chris,

      as far as the concrete in the wall its fairly level 6" to 8" diffence and very rough which i think is a good thing vs. a smooth level surface? lintels i think are still good we got up to about window height when the truck got stuck. theres still plenty of steel #4's runing horizontaly and #5's every 2 feet vert. with a double #4 at the top, and the concrete that was jamed in the pump didnt end up in the walls, the operator was there till midnight with an air chisel.

bnc_skcUser is Offline
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17 Jun 2007 10:45 PM
I wouldn't woory too much about the cold joint. Think about it, everyone who pours multiple story structures with ICF has a cold joint between the floors.

I can't believe the pump operator didn't have enough sense to purge his pump and lines soon after the truck got stuck.
bnc_skcUser is Offline
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17 Jun 2007 10:49 PM
I mean I wouldn't WORRY too much about the cold joint!

Whoever said engineers can't spell was right. I'm living proof!
eric monkmanUser is Offline
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21 Jun 2007 09:50 PM
Groundup. :
                   You are totally reponsible for all site preparations and providing adequate access for all heavy equipment and machinery.

                   You are the builder.

                   The fact that your approach road did not hold up after only 4 mixers, speaks to poor preparation and site planning on your part.

                   Your cold joint is a result of this,  and you have only yourtself to blame.

                   You are lucky the concrete pump did not seize solid from overage mud, and the operator got the pump cleaned out, otherwise your
                   pump bill would be the price of a new home.
groundupUser is Offline
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22 Jun 2007 10:35 AM
Hey Eric,
    I respect your answer and agree with you to a certain point but the property was in fine shape it was the saturday rookie crew that tore up the ground, i had 9 or 10 concrete trucks in there a few months before to pour the slab and not one got stuck and as far as the boom getting froze up he should have washed it out after 20 min when he knew that it was setting up, it was a circus out there is all im saying. i ended up piggie backing a line pump to the boom and finished and it should be fine hopefully.
eric monkmanUser is Offline
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22 Jun 2007 01:12 PM

It is good of you to take that shot from me, without malice.

Even though it was the "rookies" that toasted your laneway....you have to be prepared to "idiot proof" things.

No pumper ever wants to be in the situation he was in.

Good luck and take care.

PatrickTUser is Offline
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22 Jun 2007 07:53 PM

I have read this thread with intrest because our basement pour will be 320' of 12' walls, 94 cubic yards of concrete.  I want to insure I don't have to 'quit' before it's done. We'll start early!

With the home having a simple foot print, how would you pace the trucks? Or better yet, how long does it take to pump one truck load? I'm sure once the pour starts we can slow them down or speed them up but, just tring to get an idea.

Patrick T

eric monkmanUser is Offline
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22 Jun 2007 08:24 PM
Using high slump concrete for ICF's dictates a slow pour rate, as the forms are not as strong as conventional concrete formwork.

A pumper running full bore can empty a mixer in 6 to 8 mins.

Rule of thumb, 35 to 45 mins depending on load size, for ICF's

Give yourself a nice easy pace, take your time and do it right. Pour in the cool of the day. (early)

Have more help on hand than you think you would ever need, if this is your first tall wall.

Develop team strategies to deal with potential problems, before they occur. Like any Boy Scout.

Hanging out and helping with some other local ICF pours would be a smart move too.
icfcontractorUser is Offline
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23 Jun 2007 10:50 AM
Patrick T,

I have a little different view than Eric Monkman. I ususally have 15 minutes between my trucks. I poured wood panels for years and have had a lot fewer problems with my ICF forms. This goes to the old adage of not all ICFs are alike. They may look similar but some of them can not handle the pressures of an aggresive pour schedule.

On your project, using one of a handful of forms I trust, I would pour it in 4' lifts with 1 1/2 vibrator stinging the concrete right on the heels of the hose. You will get about 100 feet of wall poured out per truck. This means by the time you come around to the concrete you first poured out it has been in the wall for about 45 minutes to an hour. I pour a "hot mix", 6 sack pea mix with a mid-range water reducer, plasticizer, viscosity modifier, and 5% air. The great thing about this mix is it flows extremely well, it also has very little water in it which means once the concrete stops moving it starts to set up. This reduces the pressurer in the wall greatly and allows a faster pour. I am of the opinion, I will spend a little more for a excellent concrete mix but it dramatically reduces the time it takes to pour out a project. In turn reduces man hours, pump time, truck time, and possible overtime charges by the pump and concrete company. By the way our mix usually tests at 6000 to 6500 psi.

We have done large pours with 8 workers, 2 pumps, and 240 yards of concrete in 6 hours. Due to the care taken to install the forms we didn't have a single blow out and we were averaging 12 minutes between trucks and many times we had workers standing around with their hand in their pockets.

I do agree with Eric that having plenty of help is extremely important and make sure everyone knows their role, walking people through the site before hand and developing stategies to handle the potential problems is paramount. Have plenty of equipment and materials on site with fresh batteries and screws to deal with any possible issue that may arise.

ICF Contractor
eric monkmanUser is Offline
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23 Jun 2007 02:30 PM
I would say 15 mins for a 10 yd truck, is too fast for a novice...and you better have 3 trucks lined up if you are pouring at that pace!

Why push it?

Speed up after you know your crews limits.

I still maintain that the Hoseman is critical to the pours success, as he sees all !

NO dummies on the hose please!

2 pumps 240 yds in 6 hours translates into 20 yds per hour per pump, I'm sure it's not that simple, but I'm a realist. LOL
icfcontractorUser is Offline
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23 Jun 2007 05:16 PM
Eric,

You are right there is alot more to the pour besides the actual pump time.

ICF Contractor
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