Members,

I have been reading this board for some time.  We are planning our home and I have been a long time advocate for using ICF's.  It is fair to assume that once the product is erected and poured all ICF systems essentially provide the same end result.  How you get there is the difference.  However, what concerns me is not the design, erection, or bracing.  What concerns me the most is the pour and final consolidation.  If not done right the first time it would be a very expensive proposition to fix.  The issue of segregation, "graveling" - another term I learned from this board, really gives me some degree of anxiety.  I realize that the experience of the ICF contractor comes into play but the fact that the concrete is hidden between the ICF raises an issue for quality control for the pour.  Some are leary for certain fall heights of the concrete, some raise issues that low slump concrete is best to avoid "graveling."  All agree that consolidation is key even in the setting of self consolidating concrete.  So how do you assure with very high certainty that the pour will be correct, consolidated properly, structural, and free of voids?  If I am making this out to be more of an issue than it is, please feel free to let me know.   But as it is this is my biggest concern for ICF in general.  All opinions welcome.

I see you have a good head on your shoulders. Yes, this is so on the mark.
All of what you have put in your post is what an icf professional should be looking out for.
They are out their! The pros. know how to and will give you a job to be proud of.
What I watch out for is ones that don't know what they don't know.
We always have more than enough man power on pour day!
People that know how to vibrate ,pour and fix ANY problems.
The key is team work.
Thing look easy and the job is done right the first time.
You will find some one here that can help you with this job.
Look around and let their experience be your guide to an new building that you can be proud of.

Unfortunatley the few once again have caused damage to the majority!

There are many very good ICF contractors out in the world today so the simple thing is to ask for references from the contractors that you choose to work with.

The cheapest is not always the worst guy and the most expensive is not always the best look at projects that have been done buy the contractors that you are having bid your project.

The answer to your question is no you are not being over concerned, but to build less of a home because you are concerned is also not good.

Here is the point I am trying to make in a round about way if your contractor comes with good references he will probably do a very good job and even if you have some graveling or even a void odds are those areas will be insignificant, and will not cause any structural issues, and over all you will have a far better home than one built with sticks!

Don't forget the three little pigs concrete is the best protection.

Respectfully
Cattail Bill

What you say is quite true. But not all the ICF results are the same. In fact the ICF system my friend used to make addition to his house was totally different, he used a bio-pour concept that not only saved him money on the concrete usage but also eliminated the vibration of the wall to pack in the poured concrete. His panels that used was also larger than your average panel sizes it was practically as big as standard drywall size 4 feet by 8 feel. I have some photos in case interested let me know

Ikazanov 2: There is definitely concern for the system, and consolidation issues but don't let that change your mind as to using ICF. We have sold and installed upwards of 1000 pours and I disagree with most of the comments as to the issues you speak of above. Granted a poor install affects all within here that post and try to help this industry, but  some of the statements are so far of base its ridiculous.

As you have read about the segregation issues the post have exaggerated most cases well beyond the scope of a pea stone mix that is designed correctly. If you work with a reputable ICF dealer/distributor that points you in the right direction you will find a competent ICF installer, or a dealer to help you do it your self. Just make sure this personal has many projects under there belt, and don't be sold on any new product that has not made its mark.

Enclosed is an attachment of a pour by a 3 man crew, 85 yds in 2.5 hours. It rained heavily during the pour causing most of the bleed at the top of wall.

Dave

A few suggestions use a on site concrete mixing. you can dial and adjust the mix, more cement or sand or rock and water to get the same slump. Follow in front of the pump ...WATCH... the concrete....FLOW.... you should see it flowing even through 2 rows of rebar. Do four foot lifts around the perimeter and watch your corners for block seperation.

I was also thinking this the pour is essential. However I was thinking of DIYing it to build a country house and I have been mulling some things over. Is there any reason, if you have unlimited time on a build (which I do) that you can't just concrete course by course or every two courses? It eliminates bracing, voids (as I'm guessing next to no vibration would be necessary) and would probably ensure a more plumb result as there should in theory be less fluid weight than a full wall. Believe me I know this would take time but I am only going to build one house in my lifetime (life goal) and I'm going to build it right if it takes me five years to do it.

A typical cold joint is spanned by rebar "reconnecting" so to speak, wall sections. It is very impractical to do 1,2,3 course pours, especially as you get up in the air, either you bucket it up, or pay for so many pumps you could have hired help.

Also, keeping the inside joints clean from debris, such as leaves or snow, depending on where you are.

Even if this is a DIY type project, it's just so wrong in its implementation along with the possible consequences.

Possible consequences being weakness in the wall? I agree with you in that its impractical in terms of multiplication of work. I am trying hard to see why it would not work though. There are at least two cold joints in most two story buildings, one at the footer and one where the second floor joins to the first floor and this doesn't seem to have any effect on the overall structural strength of the building. If you assume that you could more or less eliminate voids and the building would be more plumb in a staggered method then I would have thought it more than compensated in terms of possibly introduced structural weakness. Thanks for the the answer, its given me something to think about.

Ikazanov2 :
In addition to the good advice by the others above,
You have valid concerns about "honeycomb" .( where the term "gravelling" came from, I don't know. LOL)
In our humble opinion two things are key to this issue.

First, the mix.
You must watch with your own eyes, product being poured with your local supplier.(on another jobsite)
Scout the product and talk with the Pumper and talk with the Professional Installers.
Ask the pumper if the material pumps with 80 bar or less pressure. If the pump is not fighting the load, that is a good sign of plasticity.
The pump is in fact a quality control device.
Ask the installers how much vibration is necessary for consolidation, and see how high they pour their first lift.
Little or no need for vibration equals more plasticity = superior mud.
Sliding the concrete into the wall instead of dropping, watching the material flow internally, are good if they occur.
Mid range or high range WRA (polyheed) is good.

Second, you become the hoseman during your pour.
This will allow you to personally see any problems or issues that may crop up , and delegate your teams to assist with any problems.

ICF is like anything else, it's all in the prep.

Note Dave's pic above.
Close uprights carry the scaffold better for the worker and align the wall better.
Internal window bucks creating a positive thermal break.Good.
We like our scaff a little higher to prevent concrete spash in our face, from the pump , and so I have more room
for my potbelly. LOL
Also a lower height scaff may not require guardrails by law. Depends where you are.
Nice work Dave !

link

Sorry my picture stretched the thread out! I would agree the height of the foot plank is about 8" low, we always recommend 40" from foot plank to top of wall. As you can see it also flattens the turnbuckle out some and transfer more weight on the strong back instead of down the turnbuckle to the ground as intended with this design. As Eric noted the walls are easily adjusted for straightness at 5' to 6' alignment spacing, and also if more comfortable to walk on the planks when they are not deflecting. Just a note on the handrail comment though. OSHA is the governing body on that issue and its amazing how many ICF installers believe the rule is mandatory safety rail at 6' when it's actually 10'. That rule is US wide, even the most notable alignment manufacture in the industry claims it to be 6' in there install manual.

Good tips Eric, except:
Ask the pumper if the material pumps with 80 bar or less pressure.

The pump pressure depends much more on how high the boom is, than on plasticity.

And walltech, that's cool. Always nice to see sexy pour pictures!

Those are nice lightweight braces. What brand?

Why the internal bucks? Will this be a stucco exterior?

That they are but that would be advertising!

Dave

Oh now, I am not in your area. Spill.

Dave,

Could you provide more information on how you do your internal bucks. I have been doing reseach for a while, planning on building my own house. I could not decide which way to do my bucks but when I saw your pic, looks nice and clean amd makes alot of sense. How do you support at the bottom? Do you have other pics? No issues with hanging window? If you want to swing this to another thread let me know which one.
 
I plan on using Integraspec based on very good support locally. I know they have EPS bucks and headers but I don't feel comfy with this. 
 
Tks
sly

Quantum, I sent you a personal Em let me know if you get it.

Dave

SLC, I woke up early this morning and typed the longest reply ever from me along with a picture and submitted it. Something obviously went wrong because it's not here. I will redo it again soon.

Dave

OK, this is not fun anymore! I tried to send another reply with a picture and it booted also? Can anyone help as to why this might be happening and why the original stretched this post?

Dave

Guys, I'm trying the photo one last time and then type info!

 

Dave

Well apparently I didn't see the red colored words " file is to large" the first or second time even though the
photo at top was the same size! So any ways I will re-post a new thread ad this photo again and start over.

Dave