tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 17 Oct 2008 09:58 AM |
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Hello everyone. I am in the planning stages of an ICF home in the midwest. Tornadoes are a reality here and we have fallen victim to them in the past, thus our desire for a tornado resistant home. I have always wanted the home we build to be a home with a bsement. However as the home plans are getting finalized the basement is increasing the price a rather substantial amount. My question is, if we are building an ICF home would we really even need a basement for the safety aspect? I can save a good amount of money and still increase the thickness of the walls to 8" or maybe even 10" without a basement. If we do build a basement it would be unfinished for a good while and would be a walkout but the rest of our home woul dneed to take some cuts size and finish wise.
I would really like a metal roof and to have a smaller mother in law quarters in the bonus room over my garage. These items will of course add to the cost. But as mentioned above the main reason for this type of build is safety first and no I'm not a boy scout. :)
So what do you all think? Will a basement really make a difference or would a reinforced room make better sense?
Thanks in advance for your replies.
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ICFconstruction
Veteran Member
Posts:1324
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| 17 Oct 2008 10:44 AM |
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Basements are overrated. We do the majority of our structures with 6" ICFs, and they will provide plenty of wind protection. Windows, doors (especially overhead doors, much more the 16') and the roof are the weak points for wind. Of course you could do a concrete roof, then you would be set, but the cost may be too high. Secure wood roof trusses properly and often.
Your mother-in-law apartment would be the first thing lost, but maybe that is not all bad. |
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| Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 17 Oct 2008 10:59 AM |
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LOL....well the MIL quarters are actually for MY mom (don't tell my wife) so I kinda want it to stay around. I've been giving a lot of thought to how to secure the roof as to greatly reduce that weak point. My home will be a passive solar craftsman style and the eves might be a "purchase point" for wind to tear that roof off.
What do you think about this idea...is it a waste or not?
I was thinking that instead of having downspouts for my gutters I would, on each corner of the house use rain chains like this
http://www.outdoordecor.com/product_detail.asp?item=HRC15106:Rain-Chains:Traditional-Rain-Chains-and-Loops
I would then attach a steel cable to a concrete block in the ground, run it up thru the rain chain and attach it somewhere to the roof system. Then on the inside run some steel cables from the main top beam down thru an interior wall to a concrete block in the ground of the crawlspace. That with hurricane straps would make for a beffy roof I think....but I don't know for sure. If I did do something like that, where would I attach it to the roof?
Thats just my mind brainstorming, I have no idea if that is a good idea or a waste of time.
I have not looked into it but I hear there is a product you can roll on to windows and it makes them almost bullet proof, like a hurricane window, heard of that? I saw it on a DIY show recently.
Thanks for your reply!
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DesignGreen
New Member
Posts:9
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| 17 Oct 2008 12:02 PM |
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My name is Frank and I am a 1991 Graduate of the College of Architecture/Design & Planning at the University of Tennessee. I have done several custom and numerous "conversion" homes out of ICF. I have worked closely with an ICF Installer for the past four (4) years, I am a certified installer for two major ICf brands (even though I do not install), and I have trained other architects, engineers, and general contractors in seminars and continuing education courses on how to design and work with ICF. I know that comes across as alot of "chest-pounding," but I wanted you to know that I was not a novice/neophyte.
Your question in interesting and with great merit. In the eastern states I would say the basement is the way to go given our terrain that can climb and fall dramtically. Walk-out basements are very common here. But in your region the terrain is pretty flat. I think the wiser money would probably be spent on stucturally reinforcing the walls and considering a safe/panic room somewhere on the interior of the home. As for your roof, you can do many things to secure its structure and design its profile to be minimum surface or lower its pitch to limit up-lift from high winds. If you have any more questions, please forward them to me and I will do what I can to assist.
Regards,
Frank Gordon
Gordon Design & Planning, LLC
7108 Ambassador Place
Knoxville, TN 37918-5501
865-719-2861 |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 17 Oct 2008 03:03 PM |
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With a limited budget in mind, you might consider making the walk-in closet off of the master bedroom a safe room instead of the basement. Be sure to use one of the approved methods so you will feel safe. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 17 Oct 2008 04:24 PM |
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Posted By DesignGreen on 10/17/2008 12:02 PM
My name is Frank and I am a 1991 Graduate of the College of Architecture/Design & Planning at the University of Tennessee. I have done several custom and numerous "conversion" homes out of ICF. I have worked closely with an ICF Installer for the past four (4) years, I am a certified installer for two major ICf brands (even though I do not install), and I have trained other architects, engineers, and general contractors in seminars and continuing education courses on how to design and work with ICF. I know that comes across as alot of "chest-pounding," but I wanted you to know that I was not a novice/neophyte.
Your question in interesting and with great merit. In the eastern states I would say the basement is the way to go given our terrain that can climb and fall dramtically. Walk-out basements are very common here. But in your region the terrain is pretty flat. I think the wiser money would probably be spent on stucturally reinforcing the walls and considering a safe/panic room somewhere on the interior of the home. As for your roof, you can do many things to secure its structure and design its profile to be minimum surface or lower its pitch to limit up-lift from high winds. If you have any more questions, please forward them to me and I will do what I can to assist.
Regards,
Frank Gordon
Gordon Design & Planning, LLC
7108 Ambassador Place
Knoxville, TN 37918-5501
865-719-2861
Hello Frank you old chest pounder you. :) just kidding man, it's good to know someones qualifications when talking about such things.
I think what concerns me is that I REALLY want to incorporate passive solar in this house, so the eave would need to stick out some to accomplish that goal would it not? The area i live in has some mtns, well big hills really as I'm in the ozarks. But the area we are looking at building is rolling hills and flatlands so the building sites exact location would have some to do with a basement or not.
Frank did that cable idea have any backbone behing it's theory or was I spinning my wheels?
Thanks again for the reply.
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tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 17 Oct 2008 04:26 PM |
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Safe room is a good idea. I ASSUME that using ICF walls for that room would be considered a safe room, but then how do you "roof" that room before roofing the house? Numerous sheets of plywood would seem to be ok if attached correctly.
Any links to safe room design with regard to icf would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 17 Oct 2008 04:56 PM |
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ICF or concrete walls with a concrete ceiling is a good way to build a tornado shelter. Lite Deck or Insul deck makes a good form for the concrete ceiling. The concrete for the ceiling is placed as the walls are filled. Rebar ties the walls to the ceiling. Google FEMA 320 plans to start your search. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 17 Oct 2008 05:06 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 10/17/2008 4:56 PM ICF or concrete walls with a concrete ceiling is a good way to build a tornado shelter. Lite Deck or Insul deck makes a good form for the concrete ceiling. The concrete for the ceiling is placed as the walls are filled. Rebar ties the walls to the ceiling. Google FEMA 320 plans to start your search.
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular Great reply kudos to you!
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:356
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| 17 Oct 2008 05:18 PM |
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Will be building a retirement home in Kansa in near future: single level, slab on grade, 6" exterior walls with a rebar schedule per the block maker to deal with 140 mph winds. Plan to wetset hurricane straps for each truss. If Mother Nature wants the roof, she probably will take it, but I hope the walls will remain intact enough for a new one. There are numerous websites that reference how to tie the roof to the foundation.
Our master walk in closet is bounded on three sides by exterior walls. The interior wall with a steel frame/door will be 4" ICF tied into two of the exterior walls and the ceiling will be a Lite Deck concrete system. Here's a website that talks about safe rooms:
http://www.fema.gov/plan/prevent/saferoom/index.shtm
Goal is to be able to race our wheelchairs (future) into the room as soon as we get a tornado warning without climbing stairs. Build in a safe to store your gold bars, sacks of diamonds..... Dave |
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tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 17 Oct 2008 05:26 PM |
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Posted By Farmboy on 10/17/2008 5:18 PM Will be building a retirement home in Kansa in near future: single level, slab on grade, 6" exterior walls with a rebar schedule per the block maker to deal with 140 mph winds. Plan to wetset hurricane straps for each truss. If Mother Nature wants the roof, she probably will take it, but I hope the walls will remain intact enough for a new one. There are numerous websites that reference how to tie the roof to the foundation.
Our master walk in closet is bounded on three sides by exterior walls. The interior wall with a steel frame/door will be 4" ICF tied into two of the exterior walls and the ceiling will be a Lite Deck concrete system. Here's a website that talks about safe rooms:
http://www.fema.gov/plan/prevent/saferoom/index.shtm
Goal is to be able to race our wheelchairs (future) into the room as soon as we get a tornado warning without climbing stairs. Build in a safe to store your gold bars, sacks of diamonds..... Dave Hey dave I have to get some gold and diamonds before I can store them. :) I did find that link and bookmarked it for future use. I did have one question. What icf manufacturer are you using? I ask that because the 140 mph seems kinda low compared to the one I was looking at using which states they are rated to 250 mph. I wont say the name unless you ask as I don't want to get into a war of which brand is better. I know those ratings should be taken with a grain of salt, but even with that in mind there is a 110 mph difference that would be worth looking into I think. Thank you for your reply!
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 17 Oct 2008 05:28 PM |
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When most people think of tying the rafters or roof trusses to the foundation, they think only of tying the ends to the walls. However, with appropriate metal straps (as done in some parts of Florida), some other parts of the roof can be tied to the slab or foundation also, depending upon the floor plans and arrangement of walls. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 17 Oct 2008 05:42 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 10/17/2008 5:28 PM
When most people think of tying the rafters or roof trusses to the foundation, they think only of tying the ends to the walls. However, with appropriate metal straps (as done in some parts of Florida), some other parts of the roof can be tied to the slab or foundation also, depending upon the floor plans and arrangement of walls. do you have any pictures or illustrations of this? I've not seen this and my simple mind can't picture it. :) Thanks.
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 17 Oct 2008 06:46 PM |
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I do not have any pictures of this concept but I have seen it many times in coastal areas of Florida. Maybe some Florida readers or builders can post some pictures. Most of the homes where I see it used have tall roofs. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 17 Oct 2008 07:51 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 10/17/2008 6:46 PM
I do not have any pictures of this concept but I have seen it many times in coastal areas of Florida. Maybe some Florida readers or builders can post some pictures. Most of the homes where I see it used have tall roofs. I'll do some searching on the internet and see if I can find any examples. You have peaked my interest on this. Thanks again!
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DesignGreen
New Member
Posts:9
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| 17 Oct 2008 08:52 PM |
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Your assumptions on the passive solar are sound. Sun angles, obstructions (trees & ridges), prevailing winds, and bodies of waters actually play a part in the equation as well. Your desire to lock/cable the roof down is sound, but I believe it can be achieved in other ways. With the bolting of the plate down to the top of the ICF wall you can very securly attach the roof trusses/balloon framing. I actually have a detail I like to use that incorporates an ICF taper top block and "u" bolts, but it can be a little pricey. All this being said, there are many ways to lock down the roof. It just depends on what it's worth to you. Let me know if this helps. I can elaborate more if you so desire. |
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tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 17 Oct 2008 08:59 PM |
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Posted By DesignGreen on 10/17/2008 8:52 PM
Your assumptions on the passive solar are sound. Sun angles, obstructions (trees & ridges), prevailing winds, and bodies of waters actually play a part in the equation as well. Your desire to lock/cable the roof down is sound, but I believe it can be achieved in other ways. With the bolting of the plate down to the top of the ICF wall you can very securly attach the roof trusses/balloon framing. I actually have a detail I like to use that incorporates an ICF taper top block and "u" bolts, but it can be a little pricey. All this being said, there are many ways to lock down the roof. It just depends on what it's worth to you. Let me know if this helps. I can elaborate more if you so desire. Hi and thanks for the reply. I am very interested in your options. I am taking the time and money to build my last home, the one I hope to die in....a long time down the road of course. :) My goal is to build a tornado proof home....or as close to that as I can. While I'm not made of money, now that we are not looking at a pit basement, I can shift some money elsewhere. If you would like to elaborate here thats great or if you want to take this to pm thats fine too. Whatever fits your time frame. Thank you in advance for taking the time to share your ideas/thoughts with me. Have a great evening.
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 18 Oct 2008 12:22 AM |
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I've never really looked at roof or building tie down methods so don't know details or have links to offer, but here is one idea. How about straps over the entire roof anchored into the concrete of the walls? A method similar to this is used for anchoring manufactured homes. The manufacturer installs metal straps that go from one rim board all the way over the house to the opposite rim board. The installer then attaches these straps to ground anchors or anchors embedded in the the footing.
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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Farmboy
Basic Member
Posts:356
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| 18 Oct 2008 01:27 AM |
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The 140 mph reference is from the Logix block installation guide, specifically Table 2, an engineering analysis report for vertical reinforcement spacing for above grade walls. These are wind speeds (90 to 140 mph) typically referenced in local building codes. Logix also refers to Table 4.1 in the Prescriptive Method for Insulated Concrete Forms in Residential Construction, a guide which by the way many ICF companies refer to.
Perhaps the following report which states that "...wind speeds are less than 150 mph in 90 percent of tornadoes." may be part of the reason local building codes don't require designing to withstand 200 mph winds. Here in south central Kansas, our local design wind speed is 90 mph.
http://www.concreteresources.net/images/graphics/IS306_Concrete_Homes_&_Safety.pdf
Dave |
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tlhfirelion
New Member
Posts:35
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| 18 Oct 2008 10:43 AM |
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Posted By Farmboy on 10/18/2008 1:27 AM The 140 mph reference is from the Logix block installation guide, specifically Table 2, an engineering analysis report for vertical reinforcement spacing for above grade walls. These are wind speeds (90 to 140 mph) typically referenced in local building codes. Logix also refers to Table 4.1 in the Prescriptive Method for Insulated Concrete Forms in Residential Construction, a guide which by the way many ICF companies refer to.
Perhaps the following report which states that "...wind speeds are less than 150 mph in 90 percent of tornadoes." may be part of the reason local building codes don't require designing to withstand 200 mph winds. Here in south central Kansas, our local design wind speed is 90 mph.
http://www.concreteresources.net/images/graphics/IS306_Concrete_Homes_&_Safety.pdf
Dave aahhh ok that makes sense and yeah I bet that 90% figure is correct. I wonder if 200 MPH winds were to show up if "my" house rated at 250 would even hold up as thats some serious wind. If I remember right the new f scale for tornadoes rates 200+ as an F5...I think. Regardless I'm gonna be in my safe room crying for my mommy no doubt. :)
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