Has anyone ever tried this with TF. If so how did it go. How did you get the corner rebar in? I am assuming you built the corners with the rebar in and shipped it that way. Would it not be just as fast to assemble in the field? I have installed quite a few TF projects (along with block) and have panelized a couple of gable ends but never a whole wall assembly.
How many of you are using TF? I have pretty much switched over to it with the exception of when a customer wants block. I feel the benefits out weigh the only negative it has (corner bracing). I am just curious how many people use it and what there experiences are with it?

You have a serious TF fan here. I am hoping to use them in our next project. 1st ICF job. The fact that you make it work in any length (ripping and regrooving the panels) is unique. The corner is issue the only one that bothers me. We have many 45's and so external bracing especially on the 2nd floor should be interesting.

Leonard

tdbuilder, no info yet I see. I have read on this site about how great the system is and how speedy it is, but after watching the video on the web site I see now easy way of installing rebar, which is the backbone of every ICf project. If you can't get the bar in then how good is the system?? It seems to me the way to go is with a typical ICF 'block' (Nudura, Logix etc) system, lay down a course and drop in the bar then repeat. The TF system also appears to need extensive bracing/strapping on the outside corners to stop then from blowing out.
Paul Stevens

Paul,

Instead of laying it you insert...you leave the inner wall open until the entire outer perimeter is complete. The plastic vertical ties have enough play the you simply snap in the inner foam. When finished with one piece remaining simply slide in from the top.

However, the corner issue is correct....I wish there was a stronger corner inherent to this system.

Leonard

Well...since you asked the question, I feel I should tell you about the pour with did with the TF System yesterday. While I am not a TF distributer we did go and assist a person that used the TF System in their foundation because we've heard about it and thought we'd like see it for ourselves. The pour began at 9:00 am and required 140 yards to concrete. After 7 blowouts and 9 hours later the pour was complete. Needless to say the pour was not fun. The rest of the house will be built using our forms.

The corner issue mentioned by Paul is accurate in my opinion.

Yesterday was the first time we have seen a blowout in over 2 years and we have never seen 7 before.

renangle

Wow 7 blow outs! Like I have said in other threads I one had 2 blow outs in the past 2 years one with TF and one with block. I fail to see the time factor because I would be needing the same time to put a 140 yards in a block system. As far as re-bar I slide it in as I build and at anytime I can slide up a panel and slide in a couple more or tie off something. Plus I install all my vertical re-bar and tie it off as I go. As far as bracing I don't get extensive bracing, I put one strong back every 8-10 feet. with the blocks I was using almost twice as many. You are correct the corners are the down fall as far as bracing but if you screw together 2-2x6 and run down the kickers like they suggest, I have never run into any problems with the corners.

Renangle; (when you say our system) are you a dealer/distributor?

tdbuilder,

We've been able to pour 140 yards of concrete in 6 hours, so 9 was a bit long for us. I am a dealer/distributer, but not of the TF system. I am located in Virginia. I was not trying to be overly critical of the TF system (for the TF system supports/deals), I was just giving an honest answer to the question on the blog.

I have poured over 330' of 20' tall 8" walls on commercial buiidling and never had any problems. The only way we ever heard of problems is lack of proper bracing, or improper installation. That is the common problem in the ICF world. I am not saying that is the case, I am saying it happens on all types of forms right down to alumiunum (convetional) forms.

Renangle,

At what locations were the blowouts? Was the bracing at fault and not done properly or this was just inherent fault to the system? Slump used? I am very curious. My main subcontractor involved with our project is recommending another system for the specific reason of the weakness of the corner design. My main concern with TF is that we have at least eight 45 degree bays 2 stories high. Bracing this from the outside would be complicated.

Renanagle....so given your experience with this pour was it the system's fault in general or the installation/bracing prior to the pour?

Leonard

As the Distributor of the TF System in Virginia, I need to correct “renangle”. There were 3 blowouts, not 7—one where your new client didn’t brace the brickledge with strapping (the only time TF requires strapping); one where there was no bracing at a T-intersection on a 12’ high wall; and one where the form had been broken before pouring and no shoring of the broken piece!!! Several times we offered to go out and look at the job--free as we do with ALL our jobs, to make sure all was going well, but the client declined because he had “a guy who has done block ICFs before”. I guess he was one of yours! I have pictures of the entire jobsite and will gladly share them (email: [email protected]). It is a shame that people/companies will try to sabotage an excellent product and lie/undercut to make a sale…

Deb

I would like to see the pics. I will send you a pm with my email.

Deb, I'd like to see the pics too. TF seems to be the ultimate system and I've received OUTSTANDING help from them. I'm an owner/builder hoping to build this year, and I will be going with TF over the other ICF forms out there. It takes about 2 seconds to realize their system is far, far superior to the block ICFs. I like this site, but the constant product bashing to sell a product is nauseating. I'll send you an email. Thanks!

Rich

Rich,

I too am a proponent of TF system. Their design is elegant and the concept sound. However, bear in mind that the corners need external bracing. The system has no inherent corner strength prior to the bracing. If you have limited corners and they are 90's (which can be braced before the wall is erected) then the TF would work. This system can accommodate any linear length of wall, and can create corners easily. It is vertically stable and will provide you a constant fastening stud every 12" OC.

Our specific project is full of 45's. For us you have to be outside of the structure to brace appropriately. We are leaning towards to quadlock once I considered the corner strength of this panel system.

I too am an owner builder and I wish you luck with your project.

Leonard

Thanks Leonard for that info. I think there are so many positive aspects to the TF system (no uplift possible being a MAJOR plus), that the corner bracing is a minor issue. I'm building a house with all 90 degree corners, but even with 45's , I can't understand how it's difficult or complicated at all. All structures need to be braced somewhere, at some time, during their erection. The bracing details for the TF corners are elegantly simple, I think. I think other ICF manufacturers propogate this supposed 'problem' because they have nothing else to hack on TF about. I'm also very partial to TF because I'm 3 hrs from their headquarters, and I've had unbelievably good service from them. They've been incredibly responsive, got me a quote in about 2 days, revised it about 4 times based on new ideas I had, all the time answering dozens of questions I had. I'm impressed. Plus, they will rent me bracing for reasonable, and I can (and will) hire a TF onsite rep for pre-pour checks and for pour day assistance - for what I think is a reasonable price.

I dont know if a continous furring strip is a good thing,  the electricians like running there chase ways where the forms meet and there is an inch gap between ties, however I should premise this with the fact I  have never ran electric through TF's system. I would be curious to hear feed back.

I use a router. It allows me to go even thru the PVC studs. I got the idea from one of the techs at TF. As far as the corners I will rip a couple of pieces of lumber with 22.5 degree cuts and screw them together. It is not the way TF recommends but it allows me stand the corner braces and level them before any walls are up when I get up in the air. I use a turnbuckel at the top from brace to brace on octogons that way I can get up on the scaffold and adjust the whole thing to make sure it is perfect before I pour. The only time I have to get on a ladder is to tear down and the one guy on the scaffold will hold the corner I will unscrew the bottom and give it a toss. It is a little bit more of a pain than when I use block but I feel it is worth the benifets I get with the system. I have to check up on job I poured not to long ago I will try to get a couple of pics of the octagons that I put up. One was 2 and half stories up. Back to the question has anyone ever panelized?

Tdbuilder,

I apologize for the minor hijaack...it is all yours :)

Leonard

Leonard
No worries. I don't mind the thread going where ever it is going to go. I kinda phased that statement wrong. I would like to see open discussions on the Pros and Cons of both vertical and block systems. This allows people such as your self whom are on the fence to get a lot of good info. They both have strengths and weaknesses but in the end I believe that ICF is the way to build. I just meant to say has anyone penalized? I am surprised that no one has tried it.
 
I had a shot to get a couple of pics of the 45 octagons that the last building I put up had. I had taken them early this morning so its a little dark but you can get the idea. With out TF with the big windows it would have been near impossible. The way I braced mentioned above allowed me to make sure all the measurements were right on before we poured.

Looks great...our project has about 6 of those. I bet those columns between the windows have a fair amount of steel.

Leonard

I have some great pix of the TF System panelized!! We haven't tried it yet, but a guy in the midwest panelizes it all the time and he sent me his pix. Just email me at: [email protected]

Deb