Wall straightness
Last Post 15 May 2009 07:42 PM by ICFconstruction. 15 Replies.
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ICFconstructionUser is Offline
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11 May 2009 08:24 PM

Does anyone know of a "standard" for wall straightness. Not exclusively for ICFs, just what are the general tolerances?

I am actually asking because of a CMU wall I looked at today, it is 11/16" bowed in.


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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
greentreeUser is Offline
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11 May 2009 08:49 PM
In wood frame I shoot for 1/8", I've heard 1/4" get tossed out alot again for wood. I've seen some jacked up concrete work though and it seems either harder to control or lack of workmanship is prevalent. It seems common for basement walls to be off +/- 1/2"


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12 May 2009 12:21 AM
I read in the construction standards book by McGraw Hill that a slab cannot have more than 1/4" variance in 10', a wall is allowed 3/16" in 10' vertical, the plane of a wall (If I remember correctly) is 1/8" in 100'. I believe the wall plane is acceptable, the slab and vert are somewhat excessive in my opinion.



Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
icfblocksUser is Offline
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12 May 2009 10:47 AM
The standards quoted by Chris are right.  All ICF contractors should adhere to the standards.  Acceptable standards should be writen into a contract.  If something is out of spec handle it according to predetermined reparative measures.  No job should be left before it is plumb, square and leval. 


Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com
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12 May 2009 06:05 PM
Is there anything in print? As I said it is a wall standard, not exclusive to ICF.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
Chris JohnsonUser is Offline
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12 May 2009 09:46 PM
It is in print in the Construction Standards book from McGraw Hill

Look through the NAHB website, cost is around $ 80.00 +/-



Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49
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13 May 2009 06:47 AM
It seems as though wheather it is "in print" relative to ICF or not is not the issue.  There are standards for concrete walls in print and what we produce is a concrete wall. 
We should all take pride in the work we produce and act accordingly.  If you were the customer would you take possosion of a house with walls having 3/4" bellies in the wall?  ICF walls, if out a little are easily corrected with a rasp on one side and the addition of foam and rasping on the opposite side.  If they are out worse than that check with your engineer for structural issues.  Wavey, out of plumbwalls are sometimes indiacators of other issues associated with ICF walls.
The cheepest price up front doesn,t always reflect on the finished product.  Evperience counts! 


Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com
ICFconstructionUser is Offline
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13 May 2009 07:44 AM
I agree we should all get ICF walls plumb and straight. This was a different issue.

My customer had a fire and the house was demolished in the winter, against my recommendations. The frost must have gotten under the footings, slab and frozen the plumbing lines. This 12" CMU wall was bowed in due to frost or wet spring earth behind it since it did not have a floor system to help support it.

The homeowner wants to remove the foundation and build an all ICF house with the insurance money. But the insurance company hired had the cracks tuck-pointed and the the wall core-filled ($13,000) in this bowed condition. I would like to show that this wall is out of tolerances and should be replaced. It is a small wall 24' x 8', that much ICF wall would have only cost about $2100.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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13 May 2009 10:14 AM
Sounds like the money has been spent.  The time to make a change has passed.  If you had started the process before the corrective measures being taken on the block wall maybe the monitory difference would have swayed the insurance company to allow the change.  


Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com
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13 May 2009 11:06 AM
Even with the CMU removal costs, I think ICF would have been cheaper and better.

ACI 530.1/ASCE 6/TMS 602 are the standards for masonry construction which I believe includes the tolerances acceptable by these standards. I guess technically you can argue that the wall was not built to these standards and therefore larger tolerances are allowed. I am not sure there is a law or code requirement that states CMU must be built to these standards. Even if there is a code requirement now to meet these standards, they may not have been in place at the time the CMU wall was built.

Typically on a commercial project, the architect will have a specifications package that explicitly states the allowable tolerances and that construction must be in accordance with the above standards and meet the specified tolerances. These are typically project specific.

In the residential construction, I would think today the code does reference the standards that must be met (both design and construction standards) or otherwise state the walls must be designed and approved by a qualified engineeer and built according to their specifications (which they will take from the above standards), etc.

I think that with the above standards you can show that the walls do not meet these standards. But whether that means the walls need to be replaced is another question...


HoowoodUser is Offline
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15 May 2009 06:58 AM
Posted By greentree on 05/11/2009 8:49 PM
In wood frame I shoot for 1/8", I've heard 1/4" get tossed out alot again for wood. I've seen some jacked up concrete work though and it seems either harder to control or lack of workmanship is prevalent. It seems common for basement walls to be off +/- 1/2"

Why the hack do we have high tech equipment if we are not using it.

But whatever the culture allows...That happens

I tell my CREW always: Build it like you would build it for  yourself...and why do I pay them good money for a good Job

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15 May 2009 09:31 AM
Posted By Hoowood on 05/15/2009 6:58 AM
Why the hack do we have high tech equipment if we are not using it.


High tech measuring equipment won't compensate for low tech production equipment, it just does a better job of letting you know how good the work isn't. A quality bracing system will give better  end results compared to 2 x 4 bracing than will a laser alignment tool compared to string and tape measure!




Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!
JBACC1103User is Offline
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15 May 2009 09:56 AM

ICFconstruction,

I would think it would be an uphill battle to get the ins. company to tear out that block wall and replace it with ICF. I know those walls are suppossed to be straight, but this is not a perfect world. I have seen poured foundation walls MUCH worse than that get built on with little fanfare except for the crying from the carpenters. Even if somehow you convince the insurance company the wall is 'out of spec' they will most likely offer up some type of repair rather than replacement.

Is it a full basment or a crawl space? Can you build up from there with ICF? Will that block wall hold the weight? Just curious.



It ain't easy being green....
ICFconstructionUser is Offline
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15 May 2009 06:36 PM
Right you are, insurance company would not owe for ICFs, they owe for what the insured had plus to bring the damaged item to code. But if they would pay for the CMUs the insured, my client would likely pay the addtional cost for ICFs.
But insurance is about money, they should not be hiring repair to be done.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
icfblocksUser is Offline
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15 May 2009 07:39 PM
I have insurance adjusted and have never seen an insurance company force a fix on anyone.  In all situations I was ever involved in the insured always has the final say. 


Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com
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15 May 2009 07:42 PM
Right you are....too. this is strange. It just so happens I was a property insurance adjuster for many years. I am encouraging the homeowner to complain.


Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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