right or wrong way to connect floor joist to icf?
Last Post 10 Jun 2009 03:09 PM by enermizermuskoka. 10 Replies.
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newbiejohnUser is Offline
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05 Jun 2009 12:59 PM
We are planning on using TF verticles, just curious if there are good, better, best ways to attatch floor joists etc


dmaceldUser is Offline
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05 Jun 2009 01:31 PM
Ahhhhhh, just like so many other things ICF, you won't get a consensus, except maybe..... Look at the discussions about anchor bolts vs ICF Connect from Simpson vs that other one I don't recall the name of (a joist hanger that embeds in the concrete), and decide which one you will be the most comfortable using and go with it.

Now for me, as a novice ICF builder on my own house, I opted for the Simpson ICFVL for overall ease of use, but mostly, for the adjustability in positioning the ledger board elevation and the freedom in repositioning the floor joists from where I had them drawn in the plans. Anchor bolts allow some adjustability also. The embedded joist hangers lock you into the horizontal position. Not a problem if you know exactly where plumbing, heat ducts, etc. are going to go through the floor.



Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!
markrossUser is Offline
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05 Jun 2009 08:10 PM
FIRE BLOCKING, FIRE BLOCKING, FIRE BLOCKING.

ICF's burn and burn well WHEN supported with a source for a flame, IE wood floor joists, carpet, furniture, paint etc.  Additionally, although most manufacturers tout the Fire retardant used in EPS, the plastic for the ties itself ARE NOT.

The space between the floor joist and the concrete wall consists of EPS and plastic, and fires roll easily from floor to floor.  Fire blocking is REQUIRED BY CODE.  Its easy though, either remove foam behind the ledger and place a wooden filler from wall to ledger, or use a metal hat chanell, fastened to the header and below the bolts or hanger imbeds, that meets the min fire rating for thickness in your area, for your project.

Heated metal, such as the ICF ledger hanger, in a fire simply warps and collapses with little heat applied and dont work without this special detail, I know, Ive seen it, it happens and it happens very, very quickly.

If your using these methods, simply ensure that a fire break exists, or you fasten your ledgers directly to the concrete surface, by removing the foam behind them




Mark Ross<br><br>"Le Canuck"
ClarkUser is Offline
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07 Jun 2009 12:17 PM
I used the Simpson Strong Tie ICF ledger board connectors.  They are convenient to use although at a price -- I paid $16 apiece for the two part connector and 8 bolts.  I used about 70 of them.  They worked well to attach the very heavy 14" LVL ledgers.  Be careful on the spacing of the connectors.  Most people install them 4' O.C., but they may have to be closer if you design with long span floor joists.  I used 25' TrimJoists (open web) and had to go to 3' O.C. to carry the tributary load.

I hadn't thought about the susceptibility to fire that the Simpson hanger presents, but I believe it should be considered.  Covering the EPS with gypsum board right up to the ledger should help.  I would be loath to remove the foam in order to attach the ledger directly to the concrete, however.  That creates a significant surface area for greater thermal transfer, partially defeating my main purpose for using ICF.

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sgo70User is Offline
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08 Jun 2009 12:46 PM
Is it an acceptable method to attach a sill plate to the top of the ICF wall and then nail the beams and joists on top?

Sean

(oops, sorry I guess that was a hijack)


tdbuilderUser is Offline
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08 Jun 2009 02:53 PM
I use the Simpson brackets also. Clark that looks like a TF foundation. Mind if I ask who installed it?


enermizermuskokaUser is Offline
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08 Jun 2009 03:15 PM
Absolutely Yes- carry on man, you have got the right way in mnd...
-And it's certainlly looking pretty, nice and clean-good on you!
Take care,
C.Kerr


wesUser is Offline
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09 Jun 2009 06:15 AM
sgo70,
Yes you can put a sill plate on an ICF wall and then apply floor joists and beams as needed.
That is the normal common way of transitioning from ICF basement walls to other types of above
grade walls.(SIPS, etc.).


Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected]
ClarkUser is Offline
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09 Jun 2009 08:01 AM
tdbuilder,
My son and I installed the TF System ICF. I hired an experienced contractor to check out the bracing and help with the pour. His name was given to me by theTF System people in Green Bay. Erecting the forms was actually a lot of fun. Lessons learned:

1. Take your time to get forms square and plumb.
2. Maintain 12" O.C. spacing of I-beams around the windows and doors (makes siding and drywall simpler to install.)
3. Install the panels tight, but not too tight (keep I-beams 12" O.C.)
4. Install the outside EPS panels first. Install the inner panels once the rebar is tied and inspected.
5. Arrange well in advance for a 1" diameter, long whip vibrator for consolidation (they're hard to find.)
6. Increase slump of concrete when pouring under a full-framed basement window (e.g., Boman Kemp) so that concrete flows enough to completely fill the space under the buck.
7. Make sure all Simpson ledger connection plates are pushed in all the way during and immediately after the pour.

I had no blowouts, but over consolidation will cause panels to bow out slightly.


bkvanbekUser is Offline
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09 Jun 2009 03:23 PM
I like Simpson Strongtie's best, they end up being cheaper than ICF Connect (because you need fewer), you can adjust height somewhat, you don't need to layout the floor trusses and they don't get in the way of the bracing (much). Put them over a tie and a course thread screw to secure them.


enermizermuskokaUser is Offline
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10 Jun 2009 03:09 PM
Hey out there-I forgot to mention something that I feel is an important issue that is not to be overlooked- Backfilling.
I would just like to suggest (for that shown in the picture above) that at the very least, keep the bracing on the walls until the floor box is framed and anchored in place.
-and personally I still would preffer to keep some of the bracing up on the walls, and even after having the floor framed on top...
In my opinion both careless backfilling, and using improper backfill materials can have disasterous effects to walls that have just recently poured.
Cheer's to ya'
C.Kerr


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