I think you need to do a LOT of research before you come on here and bash ICF's. Have you ever seen ICF's? Do you know what it is? It seems to me like you have no clue what an ICF wall is. Your logic is so full of holes, I don't even care to comment on them.

gncc35,

I can see that you are new to the forum, but perhaps you may want to do a little more investigating on this forum or on ICF manufactures websites to gather as much information as possible before making asking a bunch of questions that do not make a bunch of sense. I am of the same opinion of dwangle.

What exactly is your agenda? It is your opinion, that of the 2,500+ posts and 16,000 responses that most of the information is made up? The fact that ICF building is on the rise is simply propaganda? CMU sales are declining in many areas of the US because of poured concrete walls, which were a foreign idea many years ago. ICF is very similar to poured walls, but perhaps improved upon in some opinions.

Again, I agree with dwangle, your lack of research and willingness to post in front of people who have done the research hurts your credibility. The more you know, understand, and work with the product I believe your opinion will change...unless you have some other agenda.

renangle - No relation to dwangle, or none we are aware of.

To begin with, gnc35, THIS IS THE "ICF FORUM", one of many FORUMS on the "GREEN BUILDING TALK" website.

Next a sincere suggestion, if you really want to get answers to your questions, you'll probably be able to find them by sorting through the previous posts on this forum. Granted, you will find a diverse array of opinions, maybe even some inaccuracies, but, in the end you will be better equipped to participate in the discussion than you, are now.

again, no one here has even tried to comment on my reluctance to accept icf as the wonder product, is all any of can say is I have no idea what I am talking about. If everyone here is so knowledgeable about Icf then address my questions ? lets address the potential problems with Icf. Don't just sweep them under the rug and deal with them after the people one here decide to go icf making the largest investment of their life then have problems down the road. I know most of you here make a living promoting Icf so your are probably hating me right now and are probably not willing to discuss these issues, but if there is anyone out there that is willing, I will keep an open mind, Thanks.

gncc35,

I believe that the reason why no one has yet to comment on your reluctance to accept ICF's is because you are so wrong on so many levels that it would take a discertation to try and explain it to you. Because you have elected not to do your own homework on ICF nor an explanation as to why you are here, why should we listen or answer you? You have zero credibility.

When I wanted to learn more about the benefits of ICF specificially regarding schools, I got in a plane and flew to Bowling Green, KY to see the finished product, talk with the school administration, as well as the design professionals. The fact that they are considering building all future schools in the same manner should tell you something. They are currently trying to design 2 net zero energy schools and from what I hear, a CMU curtain wall will not be incorporated.

You attempt in creating a dialogue has obviously not be well received. You could begin with some sort of explanation as to why you are here, rather than come off the cuff and decide that what we are doing is wrong. If I went on a forum about Mercedes Benz and created an arguement that the engineering (and history) behind a Gremlin is equal to the Mercedes, then I suspect reaction would be the same or I would hear crickets. I will try to help you on your research (this took me about 10 minutes to do)...

Google the following....Amvic, Reward, EcoBlock, Nudura, Quadlock, Buildblock, Fox Block, Green Block, ICF Builder Magazine, Concrete Homes Magazine.

Websites...
www.forms.org
http://www.cement.org/buildings/buildings_green_eco.asp
http://www.cement.org/buildings/buildings_green_clearview.asp
http://www.peterli.com/spm/resources/articles/archive.php?article_id=2252
http://www.greenwaydevelopments.com/news+-building1-house16-en.htm
http://www.energywisestructures.com/index.html
http://www.bgchamber.com/media_room/blog/2009/07/warren-county-schools-to-recieve-2009.php
http://www.caddetails.com/spotlight/mar05/main.htm
http://www.concretenetwork.com/anne_balogh/optimizing1.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfgZmWXNOcA
http://www.wisehomedesign.com/icf-homes.html

Happy reading!

again, here you are telling me i need to research before bringing up the potential problems with icf. The majority or all the sites on the web are people who have something to profit by people using icf. If I am promoting a product do you think i am openly going to offer you the cons of my product? I looked at a few of the manufacturers sites and they did answer a few of my questions. To begin with one of the manufacturers msds sheets have instructions on how to put out the fire of the foam block, they also say that it is a toxic smoke!!! Secondly another of the manufacturer states that an unreinforced 11.5 inch cmu is equal in strength to a 6" icf that is reinforced with steel, and that it would take a 8" reinforced cmu to be equal so that tells me if you reinforce a 12 " cmu it would be way stronger than the icf and have the same outside dimension, and also as I stated somewhere earlier with 12" cmu the termite issue does not come into play, it also gives you the option of actually coating the product directly with a waterproof coating that way if the rubber membrane fails you have a second line of defense. Another thing I had mentioned earlier was that in a area with a warmer climate would it not (tell me if i am wrong) cost more to cool a below grade space with a wall with a higher r value than it would with one with less, gased on the outside wall temperature stays at a lower temperature than room temperature. For example i saw on this site somewhere that cincinnati ohio has a temperature of 57 degrees, in summer you are supposed to keep your house around 72 degrees that is a 15 degree difference, but in the winter you are supposed to keep your room temperature at 68 degrees that is only 11 degree difference.wouldn't that make icf less green than cmu?

Ok, Ladies and Gentlemen, it's obvious that gncc35 has a hidden agenda, agreed? He's posting his comments and questions on two different threads on this forum, and he's ignoring sincere efforts to respond to these comments and questions. He just continues to manufacture hypothetical scenarios and comes up with more questions that reinforce his unwillingness to listen, and to research on his own.

I suggest that we ignore him UNTIL, or IF, he is ready to participate in a meaningful way.

Having said that, the following brief list is as much for newcomers to this forum, as for gncc35 (most of these items have been pointed out by others who have been attempting to educate gncc35)
1. ICF's may NOT be THE BEST SOLUTION for EVERY building project but should be seriously considered for many. (There are
likely scenarios where even CMUs will be the logical choice???...DIY'r, tight budget, no insulation req???)
2. Breathing the fumes from burning EPS may KILL you (As will the fumes from burning wood, or any other substance for
that matter.) However, since the EPS is always covered by drywall, or plaster, on the interior side of the wall, inhabitants of
an ICF structure will have plenty of time to evacuate before this would be an issue. Also, there is likely to be something left
to re-build on, which is usually not the case with wood frame structures.
3. Superior resistance to Fire is NOT THE ONLY "hazard benefit" of ICF construction: they're safer in hurricanes and tornados,
more resistant to flood damage, and, yes, will provide varying degrees of protection from many types of projectiles,
explosions, etc.
4. ICF's are NOT a "petroleum based" product. Pentane,which is used as a blowing agent in the manufacturing of EPS, is a
BY-Product of the gasoline production process, and makes up a very small percentage of the final product. EPS is about
98% air (as someone else previously pointed out)
5. ICFs are rated as "Green" by every major Green rating agency, or organization that I'm aware of, eg: USGBC's LEED,
California Build It Green, SIGBA (Sierra Green Building Association, etc) and there are many more such organizations around
the country
Primary Green features of ICFs as I see them:
a. Super Energy Efficiency
b. Sustainable, conserves timber resources for other uses
c. Longer life span structures
d. Less jobsite waste

That's all that I had on that..............next?

Wrong, Sipper ink!!! It's more like three or four!!!

(Sorry, couldn't resist! After all these exchanges we need a bit of humor!)

the sipper, other than the childish comment lets ignore him finally someone with some real answers and some more realistic comments on icf. I am not on here to tell you that cmu and formed poured walls are the best products out there, I am also not going to sit here and let everyone talk like icf is always the best product in every way shape and form.

It's always entertaining to hear that ICFs or greenbuilding or even climate change science proponents are driven solely by profits. It completely ignores the massive entrenched profits of the CMU industry, conventional stick framers and the petroleum industry. It is much easier (more profitable) to sow doubt than it is to promote positive change and don't think for a second that established industries are not spending a lot of money protecting their interests.

It seems like now there is a whole group of people who argue that any kind of change is a symbolic attack on their very existence. They grew up with CMUs, for instance, so CMU construction must be better. Oil industry executives are rich so they must know what they are doing. To that thinking I give the following example:

Lead based paint is the best kind of paint. Lead based gasoline worked great. Lead water pipes were the easiest and most durable to install. But it will eventually drive you crazy and harm your kids. We changed and the world did not fall apart.

Maybe not, but the paint on a lot fences and wood buildings sure has. It's too bad that in some cases the best solution for a problem has such dire side effects. But life is, I guess, a continuum of compromises.