Performance Standards & Remedial repairs to ICF walls
Last Post 21 Dec 2009 01:40 PM by markross. 15 Replies.
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09 Dec 2009 01:10 PM
There was a lot of response to performance standards, but when I asked about REMEDIAL actions to walls that are more than +/- 1/4" ... there was only one response, and that was to repeat the request for others to input.  I didn't see any more responses.

OK ... you set a deviation standard, and then a foundation, or upper floors goes outside that "acceptable deviation amount".  What are the options to do as a remedial "FIX"???

If the speed limit is 100, and you go 200, without speeding tickets, why would anybody observe the 100 limit?

For example, does the contractor tear down the basement and replace it (at your own expense) ... or what???

If there is no remedy, then what is the point of making guidelines when going outside them essentially means nothing.



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09 Dec 2009 01:24 PM
There was no response because the initial post really had nothing to do with actually wanting to know about tolerances or how to deal with the problems if they happen. It was from someone new to the industry who thought they could "market" their product by starting a thread about a system that they don't have enough practical hands on experience with.

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09 Dec 2009 01:26 PM
Are you referring to me?
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09 Dec 2009 01:30 PM
I am.
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09 Dec 2009 01:44 PM
"( I am not a member, just a homeowner interested in ICF's as a product)" .

Before I answer you,  is this an acurate description of your  ICF resume.
And if so, what part of that resume did you use to make your assumpions of me.?
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09 Dec 2009 01:46 PM
Posted By jmagill on 12/09/2009 1:30 PM
I am.
I am sure you will be getting a response to your "accusation".  You can't logically assume that having only a few posts on here means they are new to the industry, and Joseph is definitely not a newbee.

If the President of ICF magazine made a post, he would start at 1 ... but his experience would be no reflection of that number!

You must know the axiom about ASSUME ....

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09 Dec 2009 01:53 PM
I am a home owner who used this site to pick the products for the home I live in. I also used it to learn how to install things and fix things. I continue to use this site to research products and new systems for the next home I will build. No ICF resume to date and my assumptions have nothing to do with the ICF industry. They do however have to do with my years of using this site.
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09 Dec 2009 01:58 PM
Posted By All-Sask ICF Builder on 12/09/2009 1:46 PM
Posted By jmagill on 12/09/2009 1:30 PM
I am.[/quote]I am sure you will be getting a response to your "accusation".  You can't logically assume that having only a few posts on here means they are new to the industry, and Joseph is definitely not a newbee.

If the President of ICF magazine made a post, he would start at 1 ... but his experience would be no reflection of that number!

You must know the axiom about ASSUME ....

[/quote]

My assuption was based on one of his posts as follows. "Being new to the ICF industry, I to would like to know what everyone has done to remediate a situation such as the one that All Sask is refering to. What does the the ICFA recommend in this situation? What does the wood framing contractores quaility program recommend doing in the case?" If I am wrong then I am wrong. Not the first time.
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09 Dec 2009 01:59 PM
Posted By jmagill on 12/09/2009 1:24 PM
There was no response because the initial post really had nothing to do with actually wanting to know about tolerances or how to deal with the problems if they happen. It was from someone new to the industry who thought they could "market" their product by starting a thread about a system that they don't have enough practical hands on experience with.

I guess you now have the opportunity, and podium to address my original post. 

I am not sure if you are in agreement with the idea of standards, but "assuming" that you are, what remedies do YOU have for a wall outside that 1/4" suggestion?


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09 Dec 2009 02:06 PM
I think the standards mean nothing if you have no means to remedy them. Unless it is in the building code and the building is built in an area that enforces those codes the only way to deal with these standards is to have them written into the building contract. You then need to require that the installer has a performance bond that can pay out if "fixing" is needed. No consequences and counter measures often means no accountability.
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09 Dec 2009 02:11 PM

Okay!

"There was no response because the initial post really had nothing to do with actually wanting to know about tolerances or how to deal with the problems if they happen. It was from someone new to the industry who thought they could "market" their product by starting a thread about a system that they don't have enough practical hands on experience with."

So , I can understand where you are coming from, your years of using this site,( which I agree with you is a wonderful site) has lead you  to the above conclusions about me.

I have never met you,( or have I ?).

Those are pretty strong accusations you have made.

Perhaps you can explain to me first :
 -how a debate about tolerances and how to deal with the problems if they happen, help me market the particular ICF system I represent over any other ICF system out there..?

-how much experience in ICF construction is necessary for you to take off the tag " new to the industry" and  " don't have enough practical hands on experience with".

Why are you so negative on me?
Have I offended you or someone else on this site that you know?






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09 Dec 2009 02:22 PM
How about you tell me just how much experience you have? You did say you were new to the industry or was I wrong? I suspect you are only here to sell your product because you never showed up on this site until there was some debate on how good your product was. You were not here before sharing your expertise so as to help others. You have never participated in the discussions on how to better install a product or how to remedy a problem someone might have. That leads me to "assume" that you are not really here to share but to try to sell.
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09 Dec 2009 04:52 PM

Sorry for the delay, I also have a day job.


I have been in the concrete business for 40 years.

My company does foundations, footings and floors  in everything from a homeowner’s house to bridges to complex commercial structures.

It was a leader in my area for using value added products such as plasticizers to reduce or maintain water cement ratios in foundation walls long before many people even knew what that was.

I have been a guest speaker at RMCA meetings, and a member of the CFA for over 15 years

I have been hired by homebuilders for resolution disputes regarding concrete and foundation waterproofing issues.

Another company I own has been in the foundation waterproofing business for 10 years, installing everything from peal and stick, air gap membranes and spray applied waterproofing membranes.

Our company, won Tremco’s growth award in 2006 and has plack’s for over 3 million square ft of applied waterproofing membranes

I am a C.E.T.

I have attended the world of concrete for the past 19 years, and probably have taken just about every seminar on concrete that they have offered.

I have been the GC of record for 5 stick built bungalows, multi- level and walk out homes for my  own personal residences.

As for as ICF goes,  my forming company has done countless hybriding of ICF with RCF in the housing industry over the last 15-20 years. And have witnessed firsthand all the horror stories that have plagued this great ICF industry in the past.

My crews and myself are certified Blue Max ( Arxx installer) and Amvic installers. ( And oh yes , the HOBBS VICF building system)

I had the honour and privilege ,of sitting down privately with the then vice president of Arxx in Cobourg,a few years back, and had a frank and candid discussion on how to bring ICF into main stream track homebuilding.

I have for personal use, built a three level BICF home for my mother.

Complete with a radiant heated concrete floor in the basement and a suspended radiant heated concrete floor.

Last year I had the opportunity to do my first VICF with the Hobbs system, and its first ever install in Ontario.

I feel in love with the system.

Since then my crews have been involved in two multi level houses, and we just completed yesterday a residence that included 521 lineal ft of wall in one pour.

The wall heights were ranged from 10’6.5” to 9’4” to 8’0” to 2’4” high.

It had 42 corners in it including 8 -45⁰ and 2 radius walls.

One with a 45⁰ angle wall ,going into the radius wall on one end with a 90⁰ wall coming out of the radius corner on the other end.  

It took 44 cubic meters of concrete or in a 6” flat wall scenario, 75 cubic meters.

And yes in my installs, if the walls don’t meet the standards that I promised them, then I will bring them up to those tolerances, by whatever means that the customer agrees to, or he doesn’t pay for that portion of wall.

Forgive me, but does not everyone in the ICF business, who has any credibility not do this?

 

In my position this past year, I have trained to install, helped pour the footings, and in many instances actually manned the end of the pump hose, to help train installers learn the proper and safe way to pour a wall, for countless Hobbs VICF installations in Canada and the USA.

 

Out of respect to the many ICF installers, and professionals  out there, who have spent in some cases their entire careers in the ICF industry, I call myself new to the ICF  industry ,as technically this is the first year that I have focused  exclusively on VICF sales and installations.

Over the years I have been approached by various, BICF to install and distribute their systems.

It was only this spring that Mr. Andy Hobbs did me the great honour of asking me to join his team and help “yes” promote and sell his system in NA.

 

I have been transparent , from day one on this site ,about what I do, sir.

I was apprehensive about joining in any discussions on this site for the very reasons that you accuse me of.

It was Brad Kvanbet who said to go for it in a return PM to me, and renangle who gave me my baptism under fire.

For your info, I participated in a thread today on “ICF outside protection”.

 

I do not understand your opposition to me and my desire to have some sort of standard and tolerances in the ICF industry.

By definition a tolerance “is an allowance for variations” and a standard is “a gauge of recognized excellence.

 

In my experience with trades, it is the ones who don’t even want to talk about the topic of tolerances and standards that I have had issues with.

 

You seem to be a direct individual, so why don’t you answer All- Sask question on what you would do with a wall that is out his specified tolerance.

As you said ,is not answering questions what this site is all about.

 

I have never questioned your character or integrity, and quite frankly ,I take offence to you questioning mine and having to justify my existence or presence on this site to you.

With that being said, if I can ever help with a question that you may ask on this site, that I have had experience in, I hope you allow me to try and help with a solution

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09 Dec 2009 05:40 PM
Posted By Joseph Farella on 12/09/2009 4:52 PM

size=3>You seem to be a direct individual, so why don’t you answer All- Sask question on what you would do with a wall that is out his specified tolerance.

As you said ,is not answering questions what this site is all about.

 

I have never questioned your character or integrity, and quite frankly ,I take offence to you questioning mine and having to justify my existence or presence on this site to you.

With that being said, if I can ever help with a question that you may ask on this site, that I have had experience in, I hope you allow me to try and help with a solution

[/quote]

I never questioned your integrity or your character, just your reason for starting a thread on tolerances and then not responding to a question on remedying that. Have you answered that question? You did not in the first thread. I would think with your experience you should have some pretty good ideas. I did answer his question (as a homeowner) I would have a contract that addressed my expectations and the required solutions. I can't respond as a contractor or supplier, as I have no idea other than taking the wall down on how to fix this. My assumptions on your experience are obviously wrong, and I see you could greatly add to the exchange of information on this site. I hope that my personal opinions do not stop that. I hope you prove my assumptions wrong and stick around to share your expertise.
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09 Dec 2009 06:53 PM

You can rest assured  that in all my future posts on GBT, that in the back of my mind , first and foremost, will be your challenge to me not to disappoint you and to prove your  assumptions wrong.

I  feel like I have been thru the Spanish Inquistion.

So we can put an end to this. Could you be specific as to exactly which question  that I did not respond to, about remediating?

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21 Dec 2009 01:40 PM
Hmmmm: Alll Sask ICF Builder, 1" over 10' is really the set standard for several of the planes of the wall, Codes and standards of formed structures clearly stipulate this. Ass for this 1/4" rule, this is our own, and the PSB team has posted many a time, our contract documents that state such. Typically our remedial measures are to R and R anything out of 3/4" line, or anything that completely exposes a tie, which in our case is 3/4", otherwise we have to add and subtract. Over 1" and the wall simply is not structural anymore, as per code. Interestingly with the number of legal cases I have been involved in, its amazing how many engineers will allow 3" out of level walls, to be considered "acceptable". Yea right, my theory is to get the wall straight, and keep it straight, within 1/4" as that is what the customer has paid for. Good luck to you, however let me know how your project works out. As for the credential bashing and such and who is a new-by to the industry, I guarantee you.....I AM NOT!!! and others need to recognize they are following on people who built when not even wall alignment systems existed. Those are the installers who can truly say they are experienced.
Mark Ross<br><br>"Le Canuck"
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