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question - costs

Last Post 06 Jan 2010 08:48 AM by jerkylips. 10 Replies.

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jerkylips

Basic Member

Posts:359

24 Dec 2009 11:59 AM
yet another question.. the ballpark for icf's came in very high. I'm still trying to figure out the options, but it got me thinking.. How much of a difference is there, really, between ICF and pouring a basement & using 2" foam on the exterior? I know that the interior walls won't be insulated, but that's something that we could do after the fact, when we're ready to finish the basement? My builder's excavation estimate compared to the ICF estimate was not in the same universe, so I'm confident that adding insulation to a traditional pour will be much cheaper, & it seems to be essentially the same finished product. Am I missing something?

vanman2004b User is Offline

New Member

Posts:25

24 Dec 2009 12:20 PM
We are in the building stage of a two story plus basement all exterior, including garage, ICF house. At this time I am not sure if I would do it this way if I had to do it again based only on cost. Based on everything else we love it. I would however build below grade with ICF. No forms to erect and tear down and insulated both sides. My guess is the cost of a poured basement versus an ICF basement is that the ICF might cost some more but you get a much better finished product.

renangle

Basic Member

Posts:304

24 Dec 2009 12:50 PM
jerkylips...what do you consider high? If I am bidding on a residential project that is located within a reasonable distance, turnkey ICF install price comes in at close to $11.00 sqft of wall. That does not include waterproofing or footers. If the job is very large that number may come down to $9.50 - 10.00 sqft. I would also say we are a little agressive though. Some of it depends on concrete cost, ICF block price, but I would think that could be broken down to you in an itemized cost. I would be curious to know though what numbers you received.

jerkylips

Basic Member

Posts:359

24 Dec 2009 01:12 PM
I don't an itemized cost, but I'll tell you what I know. The house is about 2000 sq ft. At the time, he didn't know we were doing a walkout, so it is for 4 full walls, which is not correct. The price I was given for the footings, icf's, sip walls & roof, & the steel structure came out to about $74/sq ft. That does not include basement or garage slab. I was also told that ICF is generally about double a poured concrete wall, because of the cost of the forms. That part is what got me thinking. Basically that says that the cost of the forms are equal to the cost of the concrete. I can't imagine that if I did a "normal" poured basement & used similar amounts of rigid foam to insulate, that the insulation costs would be equal to the concrete. maybe I'm wrong, though. I was given some hard numbers, but I don't really want to share those yet. I've had lots of great conversations with these guys & I've been impressed, so I'm hoping maybe it was an error or something. I'll say this - the ballpark I was given was roughly 3x what my builder gave me for stick framed & poured basement..

TexasICF

Advanced Member

Posts:622

05 Jan 2010 02:56 PM
Jerkylips - you may be sufferring from the very common "the builder really doesn't want to do it" syndrome. Basically, you present a builder or architect with something new or different and sometimes instead of working to improve their line or bag of tricks they just tack on a huge sum to either make a great deal of money or discourage you from attempting to improve on old time practices. I am in Texas -- so only see a few basements a year plus a few walkout basements but I have never seen a poured in place all concrete wall come in more than a dollar or two less than the ICF. Depending on the forming system these walls are often more expensive than ICF. --- particularly when one tries to make it an ICF after the fact. It's interesting, I was reading some SIPS posts in other forum areas earlier and folks often go down the path of recreating an ICF out of their other system as they work toward what might be the best method. Anyway, i would get some detail if i were you -- i agree with renangle's numbers above -- barring unusual complexity $11.00 is not a bad number. Regarding the ICF forms costing more than concrete cost - this is almost always the case since if a yard of concrete is $100 -- the concrete for a six inch ICF wall would cost $1.85 per sqft and and eight inch wall would cost about $2.47 per sqft. Labor costs of building and removing Simon forms for example for poured in place concrete walls are usally quite high when compared to ICF labor since it snaps together and does not have to be removed. Anyway, I would encourage you to get some additional detail on how the number break out.

jerkylips

Basic Member

Posts:359

05 Jan 2010 03:30 PM
Posted By TexasICF on 01/05/2010 2:56 PM Jerkylips - you may be sufferring from the very common "the builder really doesn't want to do it" syndrome. Basically, you present a builder or architect with something new or different and sometimes instead of working to improve their line or bag of tricks they just tack on a huge sum to either make a great deal of money or discourage you from attempting to improve on old time practices. I am in Texas -- so only see a few basements a year plus a few walkout basements but I have never seen a poured in place all concrete wall come in more than a dollar or two less than the ICF. Depending on the forming system these walls are often more expensive than ICF. --- particularly when one tries to make it an ICF after the fact. It's interesting, I was reading some SIPS posts in other forum areas earlier and folks often go down the path of recreating an ICF out of their other system as they work toward what might be the best method. Anyway, i would get some detail if i were you -- i agree with renangle's numbers above -- barring unusual complexity $11.00 is not a bad number. Regarding the ICF forms costing more than concrete cost - this is almost always the case since if a yard of concrete is $100 -- the concrete for a six inch ICF wall would cost $1.85 per sqft and and eight inch wall would cost about $2.47 per sqft. Labor costs of building and removing Simon forms for example for poured in place concrete walls are usally quite high when compared to ICF labor since it snaps together and does not have to be removed. Anyway, I would encourage you to get some additional detail on how the number break out. Thanks for the reply! The ironic thing is that this company 'specializes' in - in fact, ONLY does ICF's & SIPs. It's looking more & more that the reason for the price is that there isn't much competition in this area. I was able to get a slightly better breakdown of costs ICF walls for the basement would be in the neighborhood of $40,000. This does not include the flatwork, though. My builder said that for the last home he did that was similar in size, the excavating & concrete (including basement & garage slabs) was about $20,000. I know that does not include insulation to the extent that the ICF's provide, but even adding insulation under the slab & on exterior walls, it should be significantly less. We're planning to finish the basement in the future so the interior walls will be insulated at some point too, but not right away. I'll say this, and I don't mean this as a slight to the SIP/ICF contractor. After seeing some of the work they've done, they seem to specialize in higher end/larger homes. I think they may cater to the people who are not on tight budgets, & it shows. The flip side of that is that our builder is very reasonable compared to others in the area. He's been in the industry for many years but recently branched out on his own, so he's still in the "trying to get my name out there" phase, and his prices reflect that too. I get the feeling that I'm comparing opposite ends of the spectrum.

wes

Advanced Member

Posts:810

05 Jan 2010 05:26 PM
Jerkylips, If your concrete contractor is just starting out on his own, you might suggest to him that he look into doing ICFs as an add-on to his business. If the other contractor is the only guy doing ICFs in your area, and his prices are that high, then the field would be wide open for another installer.

Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected]

toddm

Veteran Member

Posts:1152

05 Jan 2010 07:10 PM
I suspect that denial is the problem, a refusal to accept that the buyer today is a dramatically different as the market. Back in the late, great housing boom, green building was a premium-priced niche market. Many, if not most, green buyers back then were not constrained by money. To the contrary, they were willing to factor intangibles into the equation.They wanted a house that made a statement about their environmental good will. Those buyers won't be back any time soon because they owe more on their homes than they are worth. Today's buyers, the folks who kept their powder dry, aren't the type to forget about the pocketbook version of green. They focus on the dollars-and-cents items in the LEED checklist. If the value isn't there, like Jerkylips, they're looking for the exit. I am happy to report that the industry is adapting. Two of the three contractors who bid on my slab on grade, resting on 32-inch stem walls, insisted that ICF for this use cost more than conventional methods (but was worth it.) This, despite the NAHB's assertion here http://www.toolbase.org/Technology-Inventory/walls/Insulating-Concrete-Forms that "Total labor plus material costs may be less than CMU foundations." The third fellow's prices came in well under CMU prices, and low enough to take my DIY option off the table. He did a good job, despite some delays. Seems he is a very busy fellow.

Bruce Frey User is Offline

Basic Member

Posts:429

06 Jan 2010 04:01 AM
Posted By jerkylips on 12/24/2009 11:59 AM yet another question.. the ballpark for icf's came in very high. I'm still trying to figure out the options, but it got me thinking.. How much of a difference is there, really, between ICF and pouring a basement & using 2" foam on the exterior? I know that the interior walls won't be insulated, but that's something that we could do after the fact, when we're ready to finish the basement? My builder's excavation estimate compared to the ICF estimate was not in the same universe, so I'm confident that adding insulation to a traditional pour will be much cheaper, & it seems to be essentially the same finished product. Am I missing something? If you are doing SIPS or stick above grade, I would not pay a premium for ICF basement walls over a conventional concrete wall with a like amount of insulation. The nice thing about a conventional wall is that you can inspect it for segregation and honeycomb. Proper consolidation SHOULD NOT be a problem in any type of concrete pour, but unfortunately it sometimes is. The other issue is finish timing. I think you will need to drywall your ICF basement to get occupancy. If you are planning to finish the basement in the future, this may be an issue. Cashflow can be sometimes be just as big an issue as overall cost. Bruce

JakeG

New Member

Posts:55

06 Jan 2010 07:07 AM
I run into this all the time in my local area (southwest Ontario). There are some local general contractors who own their own basement forms (wood/steel) and crane trucks. They can put up basements at 8 feet high at ground zero prices in and out in 1.5 days tops. The only time we can compete head to head with our ICFs is when the customer wants the 9 foot clear basement height - this added cost to the normal formwork guys having to scab on the extra height puts them at a disadvantage. We always have the advantage when the customer is going to the eaves with ICF. It seems to be a challenge at different geographic locations where poured basement walls are the mainstay. We also have some advantages when the customers want some complicated basement structures - we get the ICF engineering support which the normal poured basement guys have to sort out on their own.

jerkylips

Basic Member

Posts:359

06 Jan 2010 08:48 AM
Posted By Bruce Frey on 01/06/2010 4:01 AM Posted By jerkylips on 12/24/2009 11:59 AM yet another question.. the ballpark for icf's came in very high. I'm still trying to figure out the options, but it got me thinking.. How much of a difference is there, really, between ICF and pouring a basement & using 2" foam on the exterior? I know that the interior walls won't be insulated, but that's something that we could do after the fact, when we're ready to finish the basement? My builder's excavation estimate compared to the ICF estimate was not in the same universe, so I'm confident that adding insulation to a traditional pour will be much cheaper, & it seems to be essentially the same finished product. Am I missing something? If you are doing SIPS or stick above grade, I would not pay a premium for ICF basement walls over a conventional concrete wall with a like amount of insulation. The nice thing about a conventional wall is that you can inspect it for segregation and honeycomb. Proper consolidation SHOULD NOT be a problem in any type of concrete pour, but unfortunately it sometimes is. The other issue is finish timing. I think you will need to drywall your ICF basement to get occupancy. If you are planning to finish the basement in the future, this may be an issue. Cashflow can be sometimes be just as big an issue as overall cost. Bruce I recently learned the same thing, about needing drywall. this, along with other "issues" have pretty much eliminated ICF's as an option. Since I can get the basement done reasonably through my builder, I'm choosing to spend extra money on insulating the slab as well as the walls, instead of ICF's.