Effective R-value is non sense talk to me...

like pink makes insulation better than yellow...

crazy talk...

I know I know... there really are devils, and angels sitting in clouds and Santas oh my....

IF I start with R-50... I know I have R-50.

aj

You'll need about 10 inches of foam to get to R-50

UpstateNY, Effective R-value is no more of a joke than R-value itself. R-value is conduction only - and yes heat transfer includes convection and radiation and even thermal mass. You don't see many folks buying a lot thats 100 feet by whatever. Just not enough information. Your R-value can be 1000 and if you have any convection you an actual zero r-value performance. There are other threads to read on this. You might google "The R-value Myth". Regards.

Look it.... everyone knows about reducing infiltration. It is finally common knowledge!

OK... so if we have the same air leakage... and we are talking Lake George, NY... where there is
no value in radiation control....

then...

R-value matters period. Real R-value of whatever one is putting in one's shell.

So.....

R-60 of cellulose is the same as R-60 of foam.

I like foam for foundations here... but would like to not use it there too if something else
would replace it and be a better cost and be less oil connected.

For the rest of the home... I am veering away from foam... I did like the idea of it... but... I now want to
get to passive house numbers and heat with a dozen cats... I'll be cat man two... since my neighbor already is a cat man... (just kidding about the cats for me but this guy does have over 500 now in his cat rescue!)

Seriously..... the idea now is to heat average home here with just heated bath tile... with breathing wall... and little to no HRV use... more like human use of openings... doors windows... and design temp for 30-40 degrees and handle the lowest 10 to minus 10 temps with wood burning..... pellet or cord.

I just can't understand this idea of stopping at such low R-numbers. It really is about the cost of foam. It is too expensive to get R-60 with foam, but not so with Cells... etc.

aj

"R" value is just a laboratory number. It serves only as a starting point when considering the thermal insulation value of a wall. You have to consider all of the other components in the wall in order to understand the performance. R23.25 EPS foam combined with the thermal mass of 6" of concrete compares to R50 cellulose in a stick framed wall. You also have to consider the life of the insulation you choose. For instance, some insulation products will break down, compress or sag over time and others won't. EPS does not biodegrade and when it protects the concrete, you have a building that will last for 500 years.

Bruce.... nonsense talk really.

The cement is thermal mass... as the labs with engineers have stated... the mass that is inside the insulation helps a small amount
as a flywheel in climates with large temperature swings from day to night and also with storing solar heat and say heat from burning a
woodstove for part of a day verses 24 hours continuous.

It does not add R value..... show me a report where it does from one of the major testing labs.

Dana is the guru around here.... Dana?

Straighten us both out.


R-4 times say 2.5" foam times 2 walls of foam... is R-20


R-50 talk is nonsense for standard ICF... and just a little google searching shows this to be true... It also shows that ICF websites are all set up like snake oil sales!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ICF is a decent product for some uses in certain climates... The advertising should cut out the snake oil crap as this is the year 2010 and it's quite easy to figure out who is bullsh*tting.

Read my post. I did not say concrete adds R value. Further, it does not matter which side carries the insulation.

Good uses for ICF...

climates with daily temp swings...

areas where stucco is popular as it can be applied right to it...

Cellars up my way so as to insulate the cellar walls..

buildings like motels and apartments for a fire and sound wall between units....

And for anyone who wants a strong R-20 wall with no air leakage...

aj

Where I llve....

no stucco....

no large temp swings daily...

no hurricanes yet... though with global climate change and continoued dinosaur blood burning that could change...

so... for homebuilding here.... cellars... and add more insulation to outside to it right... or inside to do it for less money.  R-50 requires R-4 times 12.5" of styrofoam or combine with cellulose at R-3.5  or so times what's needed to add to whatever thickness of foam purchased.

Ok, build two identical houses in every way possible except I is built to the roof line out of ICF the other is stick built. To achieve the same energy bills each month for hydro, gas etc you would have to build the stick built home to have an insulation value of arounc R40-R50. End of conversation.
If you build out of the ICF system regardless of what system you use, stop telling people that ICF is an R50 product, it isn't, you just end up sounding like an idiot that doesn't know what they are talking about. An ICf built home will perform like a stick built home built to an R50 value. Nothing more nothing less.
I like to tell people that during the summer it may be only 85 degrees out side but with the humidity it feels like it is 105. So would you go outside prepared for 85 or 105? You would get ready for the 105 degree weather. So just like an ICF home which is only R25 you can expect to pay you energy bills as if it were R50.
This topic comes up over and over again, when will people get it?????
Paul Stevens

Paul... total bullpucky buddy. Absolute smelly nonsense.

I am not comparing a stick R-50... I am comparing a wall assembly that in total hits R-50!

I could care less what insulation has for an R value...

All that matters is the whole wall, whole ceiling, whole cellar assembly Paul.

Example... my last home... 5.5" walls with wood studs 16" OC.  and fiberglass.

That last home has an R of 4-5 at coldest temps here of 10 to minus 10.

And it is leaky.

ICF is much better than that!!!!

Save 30% as advertised by having a true R-20 or so... especially if a no vent sprayed roof is involved.

All that said... It is not passive house good!!!!

I am shooting for with economical green materials like cells... to get energy use down by 90% not 30%.

That entails cellulose.... because the cost is so much less than foam and concrete.

I also want my walls and home to breath... I do not want to live in or sell igloo coolers with HRVs to fix the problem of not having
a breathing wall assembly.

R is R.... You will never trick me about Rs and I will stand  by my stand forever.  Sell snake oil someplace else or sell R-20 when you sell ICF.

aj

aj,I am not trying to sell snake oil or trick you about R value. I am sorry if you misinterpreted my post. The whole R-value was brought about years ago using the Pink Panther to promote. now everyone thinks it is the be-all and end-all of ways to measure the efficiency of a home. Those who no little about how ICf works like to throw around numbers like R40-50 to sell their product. I do no such thing.
If you are looking for a true R50 wall assembly then you may have to double or triple wood stud your home and spray foam to achieve such a rating, quite frankly, I don't know, and unlike most, I have no problem telling you that.
I sell ICF on the true R rating of the thickness of the foam multiplied by the R value per inch. That's that!
However I have built many an ICF home where after the fact I talk to the homeowners and ask about their energy costs and then sell the ICF system on those numbers. Plain facts. I have a customer in a 2500 square bungalow with finished basement and radiant heat. he tells me that in the winter he is unable to put on his gas fire place for more than 5 minutes at a time because it gets too hot. his gas bill for the year....$640, so once again I say if you are building a stick home where to only way to rate it for insulation purposes is R value then how much would you need to stuff in the wall to achieve that kind of effiency??
I only jumped in again to stop people going on about how ICF has an R value of 50 or so, it doesn't. That was all,
If you read the original question of this thread it has nothing to do with R value, someone was asking to give there oppinions on two different ICf brands, Logix and Arxx, which I had already answered on the first page. Why people can't stick to the topic is beyond me.
Hope that clears things up, but I am sure it won't!!
Paul Stevens

I should know better than to jump into this... Paul is correct -- typical ICF is R-22 because the concrete provides a very very small amount of R-value as does the sheetrock when one looks at the assembly. This is heat flow (conduction at R-22) for the wall assembly.

UpstateNY -- if your house breaths as you put it then you have convention in the walls -- which basically means you'll never get to your desired R-value -- never. Might want to entertain an ERV or the like. Again, R-value is laboratoy - no convection - no air flow whatsoever - any convection and r-value is zero. -- and you will never ever get there with BAT - as it is best used for filters - and foam is somewhat tough as well unless you augment your design a bit.

If you want to have a snowballs chance like Paul said you will have to use foam. And if you want to get to R-50 you will need to build two walls so that wood does not connect inside to outside. Fill the void with foam. Else you will have convection. Again, convective currents in your wall and you will have poor performance. I'm assuming performance is what you are looking for. This is what Paul is talking about and if you search a bit you'll find that effective r-value is not just an ICF thing. It's quite real.

Here's a little math problem for you. Suppose you have a 2x4 wall on 16" centers -- including headers and etc. you will have approximately 20% of your envelope will have the r-value of wood -- say about R-1 per inch -- we'll say you have an R-value of 4 approximately for 20% of your envelope. (( granted 20% is 2 or 3 percent hight but it makes the math easy)). Now you happen across some top secret stuff that's R-1000 and you put it in between the studs. This material allows no convection. Therefore, we're talking about only conduction.

Okay -- so what's the average r-value of the wall system? How does that compare to ICF? Regards.

Boys... check out what I believe is R-50-60 in any passive house design. They are not 2x4 walls 20% full of wood.

And a wall that is not sealed is a wall that can allow gases like water vapor to go in store and come out... not a wind blowing through as in fiberglass batts.

Read anything Dana says about all this... read Rober Riversong... Read up on passivehouse.us

I built a home with open cell spray foam of late... the OPEN CELL to me is better than closed cell at high levels ot thickness... because it is open cell.

Densepack Cells will slow down the wind blowing through way better than fiberglass and still has good R value at 0 degrees where fiberglass does not.

So... yes.... your ICF is good because it is better than lousy construction of track homes and most homes built yesterday and today. It is... because it has a true R of 20 at least and has very low air leakage.

Dense pack Cells with double studs or I joist studs can get one to higher R numbers than R 20.

I am ready to get back on topic the minute we drop the dopey R-50 bull pucky.

aj

it all comes down to the inferred camera it does not hide enything we got done with a all icf house and built under the oregon high performence program  look it up on the web if you want picks email me [email protected] and then i want see your wall picks under inferred if eny body out there has eny hey paul its mike from oregon chrises friend hope all is well

ICF jockeys...

Listen.... I agree that ICF is better than standard stick with fiberglass batts.

But you all ought to clean up a million websites and all of your industries ads that stupidly call R-20 R-50 just
because standard stick whole wall R is way less than the rating of the insulation installed.

People who really want to insulate to high levels know about framing lowering R... and about air sealing.

And... as I have stated... the HRV solution to a created problem is not smart. It is just the same as venting a roof.

Spending money to create a problem then spending money to fix the problem created is unneed expense and dumb.

aj

Mike, hi, all is well, busy as can be. Sure had a good time out west. Guess I won't be coming back though!!
Paul Stevens

Posted By smartwall on 18 May 2010 07:43 AM
I'm in ustate NY and there are other options like Build Block, Fox Blocks, Formtech, Flexx-Block.

I like Integraspec http://www.integraspec.com/ Dealers in NE http://www.integraspec.com/distributor-usamap.html or I like TF systems http://www.tfinsulatedconcreteforms.com/ Dealers in PA http://thermal-crete.com/tcnews.html I like these systems because. 1. The blocks are folded for shipping or your will call so more product per load 2. You can build curved structures 3. Less expensive than others 4. Integraspec has complete window and door buck solution 5. TF system has tall wall and is more easily trimmed for size

Can't help with ARCx or ...
but wanting to help anyway here is document you a stone mason might find interesting
It gives you insight into earthquake resistance and wind resistance and multi story concrete structures
http://www2.huduser.org/portal/publications/destech/icf_2ed.html