Hello all, Im a small contractor converting to ICF construction and have been researching this board as well as other sources for some time , I have come to believe that its a combination of price , manufacturer support, and local availability that will influence which block I choose Trying to anticipate which system would be more problematic is my goal here so I have a focused question Is the lifting / floating of forms a very common problem and does Nuduras joint clips eliminate this? Im assuming its due to over vibration that this would occur, so in essence a system that would allow more wiggle room for common mistakes is a factor for me. I have spoke with several other contractors and found to my suprise that may do not vibrate at all, just rod while placing and tap forms with a 2x4 . I got the feeling it was to avoid the problem of floating and they assure me the mix flows well enough to not have consolidation issues although I haven't heard of any spot tests being done to check, How do you all feel about omitting internal vibration? P

The reason Nudura does not float has nothing to do with the optional joint clips. Nudura has a locking furring strip that prevents floating (and compression for that matter).

Many threads exist regarding the absolute need to vibrate. If you know someone in the ICF business that avoids vibrating because of floating it's time they look around a bit and ugrade to a better form. Regards.

Whoops, my mistake I meant the locking strip

Thanks for your opinions

You have to vibrate concrete on order to prevent voids and honeycombing. The biggest reason some contractors hesitate to vibrate properly is the fear of blow outs. Use the strongest form you can find and brace every 5 feet along the wall with a proper metal bracing system. Brace with wood and you'll set yourself up for big problems.

Ask the manufacturer how much lateral pressure the form can withstand during the pour, and get it in writing.

With regard to floating: Again, contact the manufacturer. Find out if they recommend the courses be glued or tied together. Read the installation manuals of the various forms you are investigating. Become the expert.

To start with use an ICF that has a local distributor that has been an ICF contractor to provide good support. A flippable reversible form that does not fold or breakdown. Webs 6" oc and an interlock that repeats often to eliminate the need for common seams.

Another consideration is your first project, a simple design! It would also help if you could adjust the wall lengths to eliminate common seams.

Floating has been a non-issue for us and we don't do anything special. Focus on bracing, plumbing and straightening the walls.

To Bruce thanks for the tips

To Brad sounds like good advice
the project is a simple design 48X32X18 plain rectangle , no t's or curves yet!
there is a frost wall section allowing for a walkout lower level , but overall nothing seems like rocket science
Cheers
P

Posted By ICFconstruction on 13 Sep 2010 06:55 AM
To start with use an ICF that has a local distributor that has been an ICF contractor to provide good support. A flippable reversible form that does not fold or breakdown. Webs 6" oc and an interlock that repeats often to eliminate the need for common seams.

Another consideration is your first project, a simple design! It would also help if you could adjust the wall lengths to eliminate common seams.

Floating has been a non-issue for us and we don't do anything special. Focus on bracing, plumbing and straightening the walls.

Just a couple of comments/questions:   Generally, I agree with ICFconstruction about bracing and plumbing etc. but a couple of points have been thrown out that  need comment.   ICF, can you clarify what you mean by not fold or break down?   You may mean do not require assembly?

I can't agree with the 6" oc -- since most builders, architects, commerical and residential -- sheetrockers, plumbers, electricials,  prefer 8" oc.   Further if the block is strong enough it doesn't need the clutter and 8" oc will work fine.  If 6" oc were better than 8" oc then one could assume that 3" oc would be better still and we both know that won't work.   

Can't agree with the repeats often either.  The better blocks out there have larger connectors (nipples)  -- which minimize floating.   Might be better next time to talk about the positive features of the block you like instead of what you think are the negative features of the competiion.   Regards.

The folding forms and ICFs that you have to put together are more difficult to get straight. 6"oc ICFs are more forgiving, because when cut, a web will be closer. There is also less waste with 6"oc.

Never had floating problems but I would think the more surface area of a closer interlock would cause more friction. The ICF I am using on the current project, with smaller/closer interlock is often difficult to pull apart.

I don't know what you mean by the statement "Might be better next time to talk about the positive features of the block you like instead of what you think are the negative features of the competiion." I am explaining things that may help, ICF Construction does not have competition with ICFs, we use all brands.

Not necessarily true that folding forms are more difficult to get straight. Polycrete uses a starter track that not only makes it easy to get the first course straight, it eliminates the need to glue the first course to the footer and prevents the forms from walking around on the footer when you pour. Steel wire instead of fat plastic cross ties eliminates all fear of floating, as there's nothing TO float.
Horizontal fastenign strip eliminates the need to line anything up on 6" or 8" centers -- the horizontal fastening strip is always lined up... Job site waste is normally about 1%. 6,000 wall square feet on a truck.

peterswet, have you looked at TF, The "Vertical" ICF System? Since you specifically mentioned "floating", I'll point out that this can't happen with TF since it is not a block system, so there are no horizontal seams. I'll not post the long list of benefits, and advantages of TF here but I will say that it would be pretty difficult to make a "mistake" with it. (though not impossible) You can check it out for yourself, and talk to the guys at TF, and see what you think. Good luck with your new business plan, whichever ICF that you decide to go with.

Sipper
TF appealed to me as well as other blocks but when folks dont return phone calls and emails at the crucial stage when your deciding on a product to buy I become quite miffed.

My two options that Im still considering are Logix and Nudura
P

Great ICFs, I would let the price and support be the deciding factor, then understand the subtleties of the two.

peterswet, where are you located?

Smart wall- eastern Canada, Nova Scotia

Why don't you contact Truefoam? They make Reward icf in Nova Scotia. Transportation cost can be a problem and Reward is a good block. And yes you should internally vibrate icf's. It should written on the block. Anyone who says you can vibrate a 6" or 8" wall with a 2x4 is an idiot. Tell them to go check the bumper of their car, They'll find eps under the cover, because it absorbs shock.

If your worried about float check out IntegraSpec. Their interlocking webs prevent any float. I have personally pour 16' walls with no change in dimension.

Peterswet, contact Bird Stairs in Dartmouth NS. They are the distributor in Atlantic Canada for Nudura. They should be able to help you. They always have a good stock level, and you should be able to go into their shop and have a look at the blocks before you decide.

I am also a small contractor/carpentry and I just did a basement using the TF system. It went very smoothly, the system does not float and was super easy to build and pour.

I do understand that the local distributor is very important though. I had done another basement using the Hobbs System. I think the TF system is better overall for various reasons. Also my Hobbs distributor from New Jersey was not very good.

Peterswet,

I can't speak for Logix one way or the other but Nudura has no measurable float or compression. Both leading blocks (they lead per ICF Builder magazine) are 8" on center which i like. Put them side by side and make your decision, cost, support, form quality etc. Regards.

Well I ended up choosing Nudura , The price was best and the features of the system seemed to make sense to me . I took delivery today and worked away at it for a couple hours and was astonished at how much a newbie can accomplish
in short order, I like not having to think which way is up I like the 8ft lenghth and I love the locking fastener strips
although they seem to push together quite nicely without a mallet?

The project is simple , even numbered measurements and a basic rectangle so its going to be a great one to learn on.
The only fuddleduddle I did was to make my footing steps 24 in as I was planning on a different block at first so I guess
Ill be wasting a bit of block in this section making it fit

P