Help for a student
Last Post 09 Dec 2010 10:25 AM by ICFBdr. 6 Replies.
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DuctTapeJediUser is Offline
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02 Dec 2010 01:48 PM

Hi, I'm a student at a tech. school majoring in residential construction management.  I needed to contact people who have had experience in ICF construction for a project.  There are several subjects that I need to address:
Cost
Initial Cost
Training Needed
Equipment Needed
Warranty
Benefits

If anyone could help me out, I would greatly appreciate it.  (I've sort of put this assignment off until the last minute.)
EDIT:  Just a small comment on any of the topics would be appreciated.  As part of the project, I was instructed to find first hand testemonials, I wasn't asking for others to do all of the research.  I'm actually done with the main part of the assignment, all I had left was the testemonial part.

renangleUser is Offline
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02 Dec 2010 02:13 PM
DuctTapeJedi,

You might be better served taking a little time searching through the 1000s of threads on this section of the Green Building Talk forum to get some answers for your assignment or at least get the ball rolling so you can ask specific questions. If your research then provides you with enough information to ask a legitimate question, then you might get an answer.

Until you have done at least some research (which it seems you have not), it seems a bit much to ask us to complete the assignment that you have put off until the last minute. I could be in the minority here, but I doubt it. It might just save you some time...as it could be a long wait.

BrucePolycreteUser is Offline
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02 Dec 2010 02:29 PM
Well put, Ren!
DuctTapeJediUser is Offline
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02 Dec 2010 02:41 PM
Posted By renangle on 02 Dec 2010 02:13 PM
DuctTapeJedi,

You might be better served taking a little time searching through the 1000s of threads on this section of the Green Building Talk forum to get some answers for your assignment or at least get the ball rolling so you can ask specific questions. If your research then provides you with enough information to ask a legitimate question, then you might get an answer.

Until you have done at least some research (which it seems you have not), it seems a bit much to ask us to complete the assignment that you have put off until the last minute. I could be in the minority here, but I doubt it. It might just save you some time...as it could be a long wait.



I edited my original post to clarrify your point.  Please don't jump to conclusions.
ICFBdrUser is Offline
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03 Dec 2010 03:47 PM
Cost, Training, and Warranty can vary greatly between each ICF product and area. Where are you located? This will have a great impact on the cost (rebar and concrete costs vary, shipping costs may be a factor, labour rates change in each area). Also, each manufacturer should have their own warranty - this should be available through a manufacturer's website. Similarily, training is conducted independently by each manufacturer (at least in Canada). The training process can be anything from a couple hours in a classroom (which is more of a sales pitch than actual training), to on-site help during the first build, to a combination of the two.
buildICFUser is Offline
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08 Dec 2010 04:20 PM
Your in the right place young Skywalker. Be careful of the answers you get though. While the old timers are packed full of valuable information, the advice can often get far too in depth for what you are looking to answer. Nonetheless, the people on this site are more dedicated to ICF and green building than anyone else you will find, so it is a great source for knowledge.

Cost - The Portland Cement Association puts residential ICF construction at 5-7% more on average than traditional construction. This however is a nearly ambiguious "blanket" number used to cover the entire United States. If you are up north where insulation requirements are more stringent in standard construction, ICF walls come closer to the cost of typical construction. If you're in the south east where lumber is milled, and hence cheaper, you'll fall into the higher end of the spectrum. When referring to cost, you have to look at the life cycle of the home. Through years of decreased operating expenses, it becomes more cost effective to use ICF. Upfront costs are going to be more in terms of materials. Bottom line is... you dont get a Corvette for the price of a Camry. That being said, ICFs have been used on Habitat for Humanity and other low cost housing programs, so there's obveously a way to make the numbers work. It may just require being creative elswhere in your build depending on your goals. For the new ICF installer/home builder, I would bank on a 10% increase. For the veteren companies that have a truck show up at 5 am, and have a crew of 4 complete an entire basement by nightfall, costs can be substantially lower. Costs in comparison to CMU construction in my local market are right on par.

Initial Cost - That is the 5-7% we previously discussed. This also takes into account lower cost, reduced sized HVAC equipment, an anticipated reduction in labor hours and a few other trickle down cost savings associated with a 3 in 1 system. However, this is going to vary greatly based on the level of experience the crew has, and their attention to detail. ICF is a different style of building that requires a few standard things to be done differently. HVAC is a great example. I see (all the time) HVAC systems that are over sized due to the fact that the HVAC company has not worked with ICF previously, and does not know how to size it appropriately. As such, you do not benifit from one of the cost saving measures of using ICF. Plumbers and electricians can tack on an additional 15% or so because of their unfamiliarity with the product when it is in actuality much easier than drilling out 500 studs. You need to be working with experienced professionals throughout the entire construction spectrum, or you will enevitably run into cost overages for "unforseen" items. ALWAYS get 3 bids for everything going into the house, and remember that the best price is not always the best deal. Also, the governmental benefits to building energy efficiently are a joke and usually aren't worth the time you put into obtaining them for a residential project. You will spend hours finding and completing forms, have to pay up front for a $700 blower door test and go through the typical government red tape to reduce your taxable income by $2000.00. I dont know what your income is, but lowering my bracket to save me $80 tax dollars is not worth the $700 test and time associated personally. Our answer to energy efficiency will not be found in the ranks of our government Im afraid.

I recommend that you at least take a manufacturer's class to get a well rounded approach of ICF construction. Like any education though, the class will present you with broad topics that you will need to explore more in depth. Manufacturer's classes essentially go through their install manual in more detail. That being said, there is a broad enough range of information available to you online to do the project yourself. I have seen this done over and over again by DIYers, who often build to a higher standard than a home builder (not always the case, but sometimes). The bottom line is, there's days and days of information you can read through to get answers to ICF construction (this site included) so the learning curve does not have to be that substantial if you are attentive to detail.

There's about $500.00 in ICF specific equipment that should be purchased or used. All of which is available through the manufacturer(s) websites. You can get by without it, but there's a tool for every job, and a job for every tool. You will want a hot knife, a rasp, a good glue gun and good quality low expansion glue as well as a few other tools like wall vibrators, etc. Many of the tools are typical of standard construction, so the equipment requirement is minimal. I always recommend that you use bracing made for ICF construction. Some people use wood and re-use the lumber in their house, but I have been on many ICF job sites, and the jobs that come out the best in the shortest amount of time are done with appropriate bracing, without exception. This is most commonly rented from an ICF distributor in your area. If you are getting into the ICF contracting business, there are many great products out there. Just do your research and plan to spend on average about $200-$250 per brace, with a bracing frequency of every 4-7 feet of linear wall being built, as well as 2 braces for each corner and one on either side of an opening. Site specific details will increase or decrease frequency, but this should get you in the ball park. Once your ICF business is up and running, these braces can represent a substantial passive revenue stream through rental programs.

To the best of my knowledge most manufacturers warrant their product against manufacturer's defect. This is adequate to a large extent because of the many variables on the job site that are out of the manufacturer's control, and hence out of their scope of warranty. A few items I've started offering that increase the value of the overall build is to find products that solve performance issues that could arise, and in turn offer their manufacturer's warranty. One for instance is Cactus Board. Installing Cactus Board in your ICF basement gives the end user a 20 year warranty against basement flooding. That's better than any water proofing company can dream of offering, in theory or practice. Another product is Boracare. When installed correctly, they offer a 7 year warranty against termites. These products add little overall cost to an ICF build but provide piece of mind in two key areas. To have an ICF manufacturer offer any type of performance guarantee without supervising every aspect of the installation would be impractical in my opinion.

Benefits are plentiful. Firstly, you are using a product that lowers dependance on energy. This alone can branch off into many political, emotional, ecological benefits. ICF walls are substantially stronger making them nearly impervious to natural disasters including Tornadoes, Earthquake, Hurricane, some fire situations, and have even been tested by the military and approved for use per D.O.D. standards to provide blast mitigation properties required for military structures. ICFs are inorganic meaning no rot, mildew, mold, twisting, warping, cracking, etc. There is a huge cost savings associated with reduced energy. The noise level is substantially less, and more importanlly, the ICF's tackle the toughest sound waves to mitigate. The dense concrete cancels out low frequency sound waves (airplanes, trucks, trains) very well. The installation for the ICF and for associated trades is easier (in my oipinion) than traditional trades installation, and I have done many of them so my opinion on this matter is pretty balanced. The benifits addressed are basic human needs: security, safety, shelter. In addition to basic human needs, you can add in: cost (long term), health, environmental stuardship and a myriad of other responses derrived from the use of such a highly engineered construction product. Additionally, there is not a faster way I know of to get LEED credits. ICFs often offer 20 or so LEED credits on a project, and offer the "Energy Efficient Exterior Envelope" credit which is one of the most costly to attain if using other building methods. This is the swiss army knife of the built world in terms of product benefits. One block does it all.

Good luck with your report.
ICFBdrUser is Offline
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09 Dec 2010 10:25 AM
The Portland Cement Association places costs of finished ICF homes vs. traditionally built homes at approximately 0.5% to 4% more. Although this does vary greatly from one region to the next and from a low-end to a high-end home. For example, higher priced finishes will put the extra cost of ICF into the lower end of the spectrum in regards to over-all cost increases.

This info can be seen at http://www.cement.org/homes/brief02.asp
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