Hello,

I came across a flyer from the World of Concrete regarding the Emmedue structurally insulated concrete panel system.  From what I can tell, it is an Italian company with plants across the globe and one manufacturing facility in Mississippi and their sales office in Malibu, CA.  Now, I will say their address for their company is in a rather nice area, but that's all I know.  Does anyone have an information regarding this company.

It seems to me that they are trying to penetrate the US market, but am curious to hear what others have to say.

Thanks,

Ren

metrock scip is another, i read they have screed rails built in so it is easier to get the consistent shotcrete depth and a flatter wall. That seemed to be a potential problem for the shotcrete walls in the US. third world construction probably didn't matter too much. I'm always intrigued by these systems but wouldn't really want to be a guinea pig with my own home!

I have heard of this system before, but not seen it in use. Looks intriguing to me and I would be interested in hearing more. As an aside to Mr. Slenzen, if they've been manufacturing for 30 years in 52 countries, I doubt that you would qualify as a guinea pig... Just sayin'.

I've seen Emmedue M2 used several times. Compared to block, it saves time and puts insulation in the wall. It does work and the idea of concrete/foam/concrete makes more sense to me than foam/concrete/foam (like an ICF) that still needs something to cover the foam. I understand that it can be used structurally (the roof sits on the walls) or in a non-load bearing manner (post and beam?). The finer points of advantages/disadvantages are not clear to me.

Tridipanel and some others are similar.

Bruce, yes, am aware of that but I would be pretty much a guinea pig in MN. Don't see this much in the States and I wonder why is it popular in other countries but not here? Even among the more progressive thinkers here on this forum that are mostly into PH, ICF, and SIP etc....

How much specialization does it really take to erect panels, and then shotcrete etc...?

I was putzing around the emmedue site and came across their curved panels either for domes or half cylinder type construction. That is REAL interesting. continuous roof/walls in monolithic system. Although i'm not real intrigued w/ the design/look of total dome homes I do like a dome ceiling and combo of large cylindrical space construction.

http://www.mdue.it/fileadmin/user_upload/Immagini_sito/Alcune_Possibili_applicazioni_pann_arco.pdf

http://mdue.inlive.it/lite.php

I once had a guy -- a very successful and respected commercial real estate developer in Richmond, VA tell me, "Just because ICFs work in Wisconsin, it doesn't mean they'll work in Richmond..." Different laws of physics, I guess.

hehe, but its true when you have nobody in a region experienced with a particular system. Need someone takes a stab at it and realizes benefits and others catch on to introduce competition to keep prices in line. Until then I just wouldn't want to pay some contractor to go to school and experiment on my dime.

I wonder how scip compares to tilt-up and/or prefabricated concrete panels. Concrete block just doesn't make sense to me - it's like tiny prefab panels that take lots of time to put up. Perhaps it's the fact that they don't require equipment to use.

Concrete-foam-concrete might sound good but dividing the concrete in half does not work for rebar and consequently does not work for typical load bearing. Furthermore, if you want to argue ORNL and the thermal mass to the inside and etc. then in order to just barely exceed the ICF performance you will need to maintain the same R-value (or typically 5 to 5 1/4 inches of foam on the inside between your two concrete sections. Now you need to figure out how to do your electical and plumbing -- and in the end without a very thick wall -- not load bearing. Regards.

I've seen scips work just fine in terms of load bearing, thermal mass, plumbing and electrical.

they have multiple story residential and commercial examples on their site.

they also have two panel systems more like an Icf to fill the middle w/ concrete and finish the outside of the forms with shotcrete.

I guess my real question then is are they more of a start up? I have never really heard of them and I would have to think that trying to penetrate the "ICF" market that aready has a fair number or major players from a manufacturing position, does anyone see them gaining serious momentum?

I can't see it really gaining much momentum from what I have been able to see, though admitted what I have seen is very little.

I have the same questions why these systems aren't more mainstream here. There have been a few companies using a similar system but I think they always tried to do it on their own instead of banding together for marketing/exposure. It could just be a function of marketing/PR/awareness? SIP and ICF trade assoc have done a pretty good job getting the word out on their products. Or are there technical or financial holdbacks?

I currently live in Milan and there are a lot of buildings in Italy, mostly industrial, made of shotcrete/gunnite. There are also a lot of thin section, curved concrete roofs and a surprising amount of precast concrete trusses. Most of these are from the postwar industrial expansion in the 60's and 70's.

As you can imagine, thin concrete sections do not provide much cover for rebar. This isn't an issue when the concrete is protected and the protection is well maintained. For those of you who have traveled to southern Europe, you have seen the patina of "benign neglect" on most buildings. While it adds a certain amount of charm to historic buildings (until the point they almost fall down), it is just murder on buildings with little rebar cover. Spalling concrete and stucco is a hallmark of Italy as a result of inadequate cover, questionable concrete/stucco material/workmanship quality and poor maintenance.

I think M2 has a decent product concept that must be married to the right project and requires good workmanship and long term maintenance, but I personally would hesitate to use it because of the thin exterior rebar cover with shotcrete, which is 100% dependent on a skilled operator.

Ciao,

Bruce

StuccoMax is a great product to consider for this !  Send me your email and I am happy to send you more info. 
Callie Barrett www.TheGreenbuildingproducts.com

They had a nice display last year at WOC. I got down to brass tacks with them on actual costs, and I came away with the impression, TOO EXPENSIVE.