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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 15 May 2011 02:03 PM |
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The idea that if you provided someone with some training (that they then ignored) so you are responsible for the mistakes they make is a ridiculous extension of the "it must be someone else's fault" and "sue the one with deeper pockets" concepts.
If you want guaranteed quality construction, get a performance bond. Or take your chances.
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BrucePolycrete
Advanced Member
Posts:524
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| 15 May 2011 02:06 PM |
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Eric, Polycrete likes to have a technical advisor look at every project.We feel it's good business, but we can't "make" the installer do anything, we just advise. I had recent post on a different thread that highlighted an insane install that included 10 feet of vertical seams lined up and random 2x4 bracing every 7 feet along the wall. We have no authority to tell the guy he can't pour.... Although I did take pictures and send him a letter advising against it. BTW: The crazy install ended up working out perfectly -- but that's due just to luck and really good technology. |
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 15 May 2011 02:06 PM |
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That's bullcrap Bruce. You can tell the installer that you will not be supplying him in future
and notify the Building Officials and building's owner immediately.
Oh, and here is another good one, local to me.
A customer notices that the ICF Installer has very little re-inforcing steel on the jobsite.
He takes the initiative to investigate, and hires an X-Ray scan of his walls.
The scan reveals less than 50% of the required re-inforcing is in place.
If the wall had been inspected pre-pour...would this have happened ?
I suppose you would have just "shrugged your shoulders" and sold him some more block next week.., right Bruce?
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 15 May 2011 02:27 PM |
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The manufacturer sets up the distribution network and may have some culpability. A consumer should have the reasonable expectation that an authorized installer/distributor has had the proper training, if they have not who is at fault? It will go back to the deep pockets |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 15 May 2011 02:28 PM |
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Jonr, I think you discount the ability and intelligence required to properly do ICF installations.
They are not the realm of the DIY'er.....sorry.
If you wear the Iron Ring, you are well aware of the necessity of proper education, training and experience
necessary to be competant in your field.
So it is with concrete, except for the high number of hours "hands on"
If you, in your professional capacity, ignored the training and routines you had trained for,
your professional association would not be too long letting you know, would they ?
Any jobsite with Architectural and Engineering firms employed in design follow a regimented inspection process.
How is it that the ICF Industry does not ? |
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BrucePolycrete
Advanced Member
Posts:524
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| 15 May 2011 02:59 PM |
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"That's bullcrap Bruce. You can tell the installer that you will not be supplying him in future and notify the Building Officials and building's owner immediately."
Eric, First of all, we will give that installer another shot because we're loyal to those who are loyal to us. We will also give him guidance. However, the building inspector is responsible for inspecting the formwork. That's why they have them. If there's not enough reinforcing steel in the wall, shame on that inspector. And I think that a certain responsibility lies on the owner -- Far too many people just worry about price. Well, I have news for you, If you hire the cheapest installer you can find and he installs the cheapest material he can find, you pretty much deserve what you get.
If you go out and buy a used Yugo and expect it to perform like a Ferrari, you're just a dope. Hire an experienced installer with a good track record and insist on high quality materials. |
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 15 May 2011 03:03 PM |
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Posted By BrucePolycrete on 15 May 2011 02:59 PM
Eric, First of all, we will give that installer another shot because we're loyal to those who are loyal to us. We will also give him guidance. He will also give you money again, right Bruce ? Money = Loyalty. Oh, of course you will guide him again, but if he does not follow your advice it's not your problem. Shrug. So long as he's loyal............. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ |
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Chris Johnson
Advanced Member
Posts:878
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| 15 May 2011 03:27 PM |
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Document, Document, Document
The manufacturer relies on it's distributors to not only sell product, they also expect them to ensure the correct installation.
When a distributor reviews the project and see's potential issues it needs to be documented and given to the correct parties, i.e. the GC, EOR, Architect, etc.
I'm not saying rat the installer out for all his deficiencies, show him the issues of concern and follow up prior to pour, if he still hasn't corrected them then take it to the next level |
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| Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49 |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 15 May 2011 05:34 PM |
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Posted By BrucePolycrete on 15 May 2011 02:59 PM
However, the building inspector is responsible for inspecting the formwork. That's why they have them. If there's not enough reinforcing steel in the wall, shame on that inspector. No, shame on the contractor. The only reason we have inspectors is because many contractors, just like many manufacturers, deliberately choose to not build according to accepted standards, or better, except in the presence of penalties if they don't. The best one word description for what an inspector, in any business, really is, is historian. By the time the inspector sees the work, it is done. It is history. All the inspector is doing is recording history. He has zero responsibility for the quality of the work. The best manufacturers in the world do not use inspectors. They control the process so as to avoid errors. They absolutely do not rely on inspectors to assure the quality of their work. Two good examples; Honda and Harley Davidson (after the AMF ownership fiasco). |
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2164
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| 15 May 2011 05:44 PM |
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Any installer that does not correct his deficiencies should be reported while corrections can still be made. I have notified installers that certain things need to be corrected and then be told that they would not make the corrections. In some cases the corrections do not get made until after I notify the code inspector. In one case, the project was red flagged (all work stopped) before corrections were made. Failure to make corrections stops the work and payments on my projects. Once an installer understands that, compliance is easier to achieve. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 15 May 2011 06:31 PM |
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Bruce;
building inspectors enforce the code , not forms and not quality
dmaceld;
building inspectors inspect before the pour to make sure re-bar is proper size, quantity and in place, bank inspectors inspect after the pour (they are historians)
in either case they are not responsible for quality or dificiencies
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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BrucePolycrete
Advanced Member
Posts:524
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| 15 May 2011 07:48 PM |
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Well, from the manufacturer's perspective, you really have different levels here.The materials manufacturer is legally responsible for supplying a product that meets the specification they say it meets. Size, density, etc as advertised. Legally, that's where it ends. The GC signs a contract with the installer and that's between them.You may want it to be otherwise, but legally, that's it.
Now, that having been said, no businessman in his right mind wants his product used in a way that places it in a bad light. Repeat business is what it's all about. So we have a common sense obligation to make sure that the contractors installing the product are properly trained and follow the installation procedures. Here in the USA, a Polycrete technical advisor visits every jobsite. If we see the product is not being installed according to the installation protocol we document, notify the installer, and make recommendations. We very rarely have that problem, though.
So now we keep getting back to the same thing (and I know you're all going to get your shorts in a uproar). You need to stop playing with toys and use a real, burly ICF. Polycrete has engineered a lot of the stupid out of ICF installations. A very big, very strong ICF can absorb many of the stupid mistakes installers make. The walls don't move during the pour, the corners get plumbed once and stay that way, the forms don't lift if they're not glued or tied, the cross ties and panels don''t break when you bang them with the vibrator, the walls don't bulge if you accidentally pump a 7 foot lift...
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 15 May 2011 09:17 PM |
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Bruce...is Polycrete not an Engineered ICF System ?..... No ? Polycrete was "conceived" according to the website. ROTFLMAO Do you personally train installers and certify them ?.....No ? On the Polycrete website the installers are told they are part of the ..."Team" That must make you the Coach,.....legally then you are not responsible for what your players do . Right ? LOL  Yep, lets make a joke of the whole Industry. |
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 15 May 2011 09:28 PM |
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Posted By Alton on 15 May 2011 05:44 PM
Any installer that does not correct his deficiencies should be reported while corrections can still be made. I have notified installers that certain things need to be corrected and then be told that they would not make the corrections. In some cases the corrections do not get made until after I notify the code inspector. In one case, the project was red flagged (all work stopped) before corrections were made. Failure to make corrections stops the work and payments on my projects. Once an installer understands that, compliance is easier to achieve. Alton, that is the way it should be on ICI work. Thank-you. Residential is somewhat different, depending on the experience of the GC/homeowner. A lot of residential GC's rely totally on their concrete sub, placing more trust in the sub than usual due to their inexperience. I would think that was the situation in Selkirk Manitoba. |
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BrucePolycrete
Advanced Member
Posts:524
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| 15 May 2011 11:45 PM |
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Okay, folks. Now while Eric's out back rooting around behind the seat of the pickup looking for that other bottle of Smirnoff's, I'm going to sign off cause it's a big day tomorrow. |
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gorden
New Member
Posts:13
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| 17 May 2011 03:53 PM |
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 This
is the home owner, Gorden. I want to thank all of you for spending your
time to look at my problem and make comments and suggestions. It is bad
for the ICF industry to have people out there building very substandard
foundations with the product. This builder stated he had done more than
100 basements, which begs the question: How many were substandard? And
did anyone complain? This builder had no trouble looking me in the eye
and telling me that those “features” I was concerned about were just “an
optical illusion”. Maybe they intimidated other homeowners into
accepting their substandard work. But homeowners would tell their
friends and coworkers all about the “problem with those ICF blocks...”.
That is sad because Logix’s blocks are fine technology and a great
product that I have wanted to have in my next home for years. Now,
instead of a Cadillac, I have a basement that no one would be proud of.
Our bank was leery about financing this basement and house move, so I
suspect now it will be impossible to get a construction loan from them
for any ICF basement. |
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 17 May 2011 06:56 PM |
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Posted By gorden on 17 May 2011 03:53 PM
This builder stated he had done more than 100 basements Hard to believe....... and certainly not with ICF. |
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gorden
New Member
Posts:13
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| 18 May 2011 05:16 PM |
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 Hi Eric , It is hard to believe but likely true . What do you think of the Bracing...? The photo attached is of the bay window area that is leaning in some 3 inches in the 1st photo on this thread . There is about 8ft and 2 corners between the vertical bracing . |
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eric monkman
Basic Member
Posts:262
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| 18 May 2011 07:19 PM |
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Gorden : Send me a message thru this site and include your email address, and I will get back to you.
Any successful wall pour should have a Laser Level on a scaffold or on high ground to check pour elevation.
String lines along top of walls to guage straightness .
Pencil vibrator.
Corners...if they are built out of plumb and never corrected pre-pour...they will never be plumb after.
The prep is 90% of the job. The pour is 10%
Were you there for the concrete placing ?
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gorden
New Member
Posts:13
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| 18 May 2011 09:43 PM |
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Posted By BrucePolycrete on 15 May 2011 02:59 PM
**** And I think that a certain responsibility lies on the owner -- Far too many people just worry about price. Well, I have news for you, If you hire the cheapest installer you can find and he installs the cheapest material he can find, you pretty much deserve what you get.
If you go out and buy a used Yugo and expect it to perform like a Ferrari, you're just a dope. Hire an experienced installer with a good track record and insist on high quality materials.**** I agree with you, Bruce. If I had gone and hired the cheapest cutrate under the table contractor I could find in the back of the bar, I would deserve the basement I got. But I didn't hire that guy - I hired a contractor that was referred to me by other local industry and friend-of-friends, who assured me he had a considerable experience building ICF for RTM homes, I contracted for a specific basement with stamped, engineered plans, using a good and proven product, and I accepted their by no means cheap price. I did the due diligence necessary to get a good basement but I got screwed. Logix is a good product but my installation has made my Ferrari into a Yugo, as you said. **no businessman in his right mind wants his product used in a way that
places it in a bad light. Repeat business is what it's all about. So we
have a common sense obligation to make sure that the contractors
installing the product are properly trained and follow the installation
procedures.** I am sure Polycrete is an okay product. Logix is my choice, and it is a good product. Once made aware of the problems, the Logix regional mgr has tried to help us with the remediation work. I have met with one of his reliable distributors and he is working with us to scope out solutions and find contractors willing to quote on the remediation work. It is slow going, there is a lot of construction right now for too few contractors and a 'fix' is not preferred over a new install. The distributor and regional mgr are businessmen first, but they are making an effort to help me through my problems, and I do appreciate that.  |
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