Thanks jonr

@smartwall -- haha well I haven't "bought" anything yet. I'm just trying to ask the question and make sure my reasoning is solid.

@jeepster -- yeah supposedly it includes everything (rebar, concrete, bucks, openings, labor). Remember that the difference between strip forms and ICF is the forms that you buy and the extra labor to put up the blocks and secure them. I imagine it is much easier to pour walls with strip forms because they go up faster and really won't "blow out" like ICF will so the bracing has got to be simpler. With strip forms the contractor has already paid for the forms as the cost of doing business and then he/she is mostly just passing on the labor cost and possibly a markup due to materials. Now I asked him about # of corners and openings and what not and he said as long as it's not excessive then this isn't a problem. I guess since these guys do it day in and day out and specialize at it they can drive the price down -- kinda like why people shop at Costco for the large quantity items :-).

For furring strips -- I'm not sure what you mean because I've already stated that an inside wall would need to be built and insulation would need to be added so that needs to be considered in the cost.
As far as brick/stone veneer siding - you're right in that I don't think I can do that with strip forms since I would need like a 14" wide basement wall -- and that really starts to be problematic with ground loading unless I want ultra huge footings and the cost is getting very excessive then as well.
For wall penetrations -- not sure why you think plumbing, dryer vent, erv, electrical, etc would be a problem. I work in industrial construction and we drill through concrete all the time for this. Just seal it up afterwards and you're good to go. This is a non-issue.

Posted By BrucePolycrete on 31 Aug 2011 06:16 PM
If you want more than R22, take a look at ICF manufacturers like Polycrete that can make variable and custom foam thicknesses. Polycrete can make foam thicknesses and core thicknesses up to 12 inches.

It's possible to get there with ICF, true, but the cost of an R30+  ICF approach isn't necessarily going to be favorable to achieving that performance via other methods.  EPS is cheap for foam, but not super-cheap, especially if custom-molded.

@jeepster -- yeah supposedly it includes everything (rebar, concrete, bucks, openings, labor). Remember that the difference between strip forms and ICF is the forms that you buy and the extra labor to put up the blocks and secure them. I imagine it is much easier to pour walls with strip forms because they go up faster and really won't "blow out" like ICF will so the bracing has got to be simpler. With strip forms the contractor has already paid for the forms as the cost of doing business and then he/she is mostly just passing on the labor cost and possibly a markup due to materials. Now I asked him about # of corners and openings and what not and he said as long as it's not excessive then this isn't a problem. I guess since these guys do it day in and day out and specialize at it they can drive the price down -- kinda like why people shop at Costco for the large quantity items :-).

For furring strips -- I'm not sure what you mean because I've already stated that an inside wall would need to be built and insulation would need to be added so that needs to be considered in the cost.
As far as brick/stone veneer siding - you're right in that I don't think I can do that with strip forms since I would need like a 14" wide basement wall -- and that really starts to be problematic with ground loading unless I want ultra huge footings and the cost is getting very excessive then as well.
For wall penetrations -- not sure why you think plumbing, dryer vent, erv, electrical, etc would be a problem. I work in industrial construction and we drill through concrete all the time for this. Just seal it up afterwards and you're good to go. This is a non-issue.

Man, I have a hard time believing anyone would do this for the price you were quoted.  Using my example, concrete alone would cost 2000.00 bucks at $90 a yard.  And being conservative with the rebar (vert at 48" and 5 horizontal rows), you're looking at $400.  Bucks get expensive and a labor intensive.  How would he position the window and door bucks in the forms in a timely fashion with assurance that they won't move?  Rebar lintels would be PITA, unless you built the rebar structure before you placed your forms, which I believe would still be a PITA. 

I don't necessarily agree that strip forms go up faster.  The time involved in ICF construction is not the block stacking, but instead it's dealing with the window and door bucks.  On my project, I worked alone, and I think one needs to factor in 2-4 hours per buck by the time you get the frame built, wrapped in tar paper, leveled in the opening, osb on capturing it on the inside and outside, and finally cross-braced.  Not only is the time intensive, but it's also costly, since each window needs quite a bit of lumber.  I might be ignorant on how this would be done on a strip form type install, but wouldn't you still need to do all of the above, minus the OSB strips on the inside/outside? 

Labor is a killer when it comes to construction.  Think of a roofing crew.  Many demand 90 bucks a square.  A crew of six can jamb out 40 square in a day.  That's 3600 bucks of labor in one days worth of work, for a total of 600 bucks a person on average.  The beauty of ICF is that the insulation, and furring strips are built in, so you don't have to pay the labor for someone to attach furring strips and foam.  If you plan on doing this yourself, then yes, you save the labor costs, but then why not stack icf blocks yourself?

The wall penetrations are not issue in regards to "can it be done," it's just an issue in labor and cost of services.  I can stick a piece of PVC pipe through an ICF in a couple minutes.  I can stare at the walls the morning of the pour and determine in want another penetration in this spot or that spot. 

I'm not trying to talk you out of your idea.  I know that I was quoted 40 grand to do a walkout basement (backfill portion only, I'd still have to stick frame the walkout).  This included concrete, rebar as stated above, footing, slab, sub-grade rock, mesh for the floor, and excavation of the basement whole only (extra dirt removal of walkout was not calculated).

I spent about 10,000 bucks more than this but I got two stories of ICF.

I think it needs to be clarified that $46/ft is exposed wall, not underground, right?. No digging, no footings, no exterior treatment, less strength (no backfill).

This is just the cost of a wall w/o footings. Footings apparently are $12.5/linear foot. Again now -- this is probably code min rebar for everything and it's not including any other digging or treatments or fill material, etc. I will end up putting more rebar in than code minimum and probably have footings that are larger than the minimum that the city requires and so there will be more cost there and I need to figure out what that will be. I also need to figure out what the extra furring wall inside will cost. Then I'll know for sure if this is really a good deal or not.

@jeepters -- I appreciate the challenges you are putting on this because that is what I'm looking for -- relevant thoughts on if this sounding correct. And I also don't know the difference between bucks on ICF vs strip forms, but I have framed a few houses and done roofing. I guess I have a hard time believing that roofers are making $12,000 a month by your calcs!!!

Unless you are a very organized and professional contractor, I don't think your assessment of how long it takes you to do something you did once or twice will adequately estimate how much work it takes a crew that does it for a living. I have 3 older cars that I do all the repairs on, but i guarantee you that the guys at the shop do it about 10 times faster/more efficient than I do it. Regarding penetrations -- I do agree with you that it is easier to stub some PVC in first and that would be optimal, but not a biggie if I can't.

The $40k you got quoted must have included more than just walls!!! Was that the digging, footings, base material/fill, plumbing piping, concrete floor, drain piping, etc? Also what size are you talking here of a house?

I'm glad that you are happy with your house, but since I can't really spend that much here, I need to find ways to cut the costs and that is really what I'm trying to find out -- if I can cut costs this way. IFC just seems too much outside my budget, but I don't want a house of sticks either :-)

Posted By jpj on 01 Sep 2011 06:27 PM
This is just the cost of a wall w/o footings. Footings apparently are $12.5/linear foot. Again now -- this is probably code min rebar for everything and it's not including any other digging or treatments or fill material, etc. I will end up putting more rebar in than code minimum and probably have footings that are larger than the minimum that the city requires and so there will be more cost there and I need to figure out what that will be. I also need to figure out what the extra furring wall inside will cost. Then I'll know for sure if this is really a good deal or not.

@jeepters -- I appreciate the challenges you are putting on this because that is what I'm looking for -- relevant thoughts on if this sounding correct. And I also don't know the difference between bucks on ICF vs strip forms, but I have framed a few houses and done roofing. I guess I have a hard time believing that roofers are making $12,000 a month by your calcs!!!


Unless you are a very organized and professional contractor, I don't think your assessment of how long it takes you to do something you did once or twice will adequately estimate how much work it takes a crew that does it for a living. I have 3 older cars that I do all the repairs on, but i guarantee you that the guys at the shop do it about 10 times faster/more efficient than I do it. Regarding penetrations -- I do agree with you that it is easier to stub some PVC in first and that would be optimal, but not a biggie if I can't.

The $40k you got quoted must have included more than just walls!!! Was that the digging, footings, base material/fill, plumbing piping, concrete floor, drain piping, etc? Also what size are you talking here of a house?

I'm glad that you are happy with your house, but since I can't really spend that much here, I need to find ways to cut the costs and that is really what I'm trying to find out -- if I can cut costs this way. IFC just seems too much outside my budget, but I don't want a house of sticks either :-)

Regarding the labor costs of subs, I'm sure costs vary quite a bit, I just paid my roofer 90 bucks a square to do 40 sq of an 8/12 roof with 100 ft of ridge vent and 100 feet of hip.  I didn't shop around much, but that seems to be the going rate for a good roofing crew.  I also had a framing crew tell me that it'd be 1800 bucks a day for labor for their 6 man crew to work on the site.  I was looking crew to help set trusses and place roof decking.  He's a good friend of mine and he explained that if he wanted his crew to average $21 an hour that he'd have to charge about $43 an hour once you factor in all the taxes, workmans comp, insurance, etc. 

Case in point.  When I did my floor slab, I paid 1700 bucks for the concrete sub to come in a pour and finish the floor.  I did all the prep work.  Plastic, rock, mesh, compacting, forming, etc.  They literally came and unloaded their power trowellers, screed, poured the slab, then finished it.  Their going rate was $.70 an hour.  They has six guys their for 4 hours. 

Labor is simply expensive and there's really no way around it, unless you diy.

Regarding my project.  The footprint is 2500 sq ft.  There is 230 feet of ICF wall.  With two stories, there are a total of 19-1/2 feet of ICF wall.  The top 9' is 6" concrete that took 32 yards to fill.  The bottom half is 8" wall 10-1/2' high with about 54 yards of concrete.  There is about $9000 dollars in forms for the bottom and about $8000 dollars of forms on the top half.  There is about $3500 in rebar.  Probably close to a grand in wood, since there are 4 doors and 35 windows.  The slab took 40 yards.  Footing took 30 yards.  That's about $14,000 in concrete.  It cost almost $3000 for excavation.  I've probably spend $2000 on rock. 

The quote I got from the concrete sub for the original traditional basement and stick built walkout included everything from digging to the footers, to the walls, to the slab.  It didn't include any plumbing.  It did include perimeter drain.  Quite honestly, the high price of the traditional strip form basement is what pointed me to do my own ICF basement.

I was also originally going to do a stick build main floor, but once I priced closed cell spray foam, I discovered that it would cost about 1000 bucks more to buy ICF blocks than the spray foam.  Of course this didn't include rebar or concrete, but the benefit of a concrete wall in a tornado prone area was too much to pass up.

FYI, I'm not a contractor, but I do have extensive experience in building.  I have worked as a carpenter for many years, and now I'm a teacher, so I'm awarded with summers off and a month or so off during the school year.  This allows me to do a lot of work myself . . . .

The guys on this forum have great things to say and I have learned a lot from them.  Maybe more will chime in with typical costs, techniques, and labor requirements for bucks, stacking, etc.

Sean

JPJ,
 
What type of forms are you referring to when you talk about strip form for concrete wall construction?  In other words, are the sub-contractors using plywood or aluminum forms to contain the wet concrete until it sets.  And then strip or remove the forms so that both sides of the concrete wall are exposed?  I know this sounds like a dumb question coming from me, but humor me because I have a good reason for asking.

@Jeepster -- OK well you have a decent size house then. I'm looking more at ~1800 sq ft footprint. What I was REALLY hoping for on this forum was someone who had priced both and had experience with both to respond. I think that would really answer for sure this topic.

@Alton -- They must be using metal forms because they told me that have a brick pattern to them. Typically that is what they use I think for standard sizes. I would think plywood is more for the non-standard kind of stuff. I would imagine (don't know for sure) that metal forms must be made to be really easy to set up and brace and do bucks, but that may just be my imagination and not reality.