My wife and I are considering building a home in the St. Louis, MO area. We haven't pulled the trigger yet because we are waiting to see if the opportunity we expect materializes. If things work out, we would be looking for a tentative July 1, 2013 move in date. Because the time line is relatively short, we are trying to line up as many ducks before we pull the trigger. We have three architects/architectural firms that we like and will interview them. We have our eye on two properties in the area we are looking for. We have a pretty good idea of what we want to build. My question is how to find a good contractor for ICF. 1) We can get recommendations from the architect. All the architects have done ICF houses before, so they should know someone. 2) Because of the specs we are looking for, we are tending towards quad-lock for the ICF (they have the easiest way to go beyond the standard 2.5" on the outside and do it seamlessly so attachment points don't telegraph through the stucco. So we can ask the local quad-lock distributor for recommendations. 3) I have done some internet searching and found three active builders who have built with ICF in the area, but have no way of knowing if they are any good. My preference would be to bring the builder and architect together from the beginning (rather than have the architect design with no feedback from a builder). This means I can't put out a bid, but need to pick the right builder very early in the process. Hopefully this lets the design be practical, build able and on budget (or you spin and do it again in the design phase). Any suggestions on how to find and pick the right builder? Questions to ask, red flags to watch for, etc. Of course the whole problem is made harder by my currently living in Texas, so a lot of this is going to be done remotely. A few specs to give you a feel for the scope of the project. All of these are our starting preferences subject to change during the design process. I've done some preliminary pricing and all seem to be in the right range for my budget. Two story, ~4000 sq ft + garage, with full basement. 2.25" interior eps and 8.25" exterior eps walls (concrete thickness TBD). 6" foamglas under foundation (and ideally under footings) as part of continuous thermal envelope. Concrete floors/roof (e.g. quaddeck, builddeck, litedeck, etc.). Open steel stairs wrapping around a pneumatic elevator. Sloped roof would have ~6" to 8" of closed cell spray foam insulation over the concrete roof and then probably a membrane covering over that. Parapets on all four sides. Leaning towards gigacrete stuccomax for exterior and plaster max for ICF interior. I like stella or noric4 integrated steel frames for the doors/windows framing. Still figuring out the windows and doors, but probably 3 pane/argon filled windows with appropriate coating for orientation. Steel framing for interior walls. Geothermal heat pump for forced air heating/cooling plus radiant heating (waterfurnace makes a good 3 in 1 unit for this). Hopefully the above list will help you to understand why I need to find the right builder who knows ICF.

This means I can't put out a bid, but need to pick the right builder very early in the process.

That is a mistake. Any ICF contractor you select after a competitive process should be able to build the structure. If he really feels something needs to be changed he can talk to the architect and the engineer after the fact. They don't need to consult beforehand.

The architect needs to carry some responsibility for designing a set of plans that can be built to budget.

You need to put complete bids out on a set of finished plans unless you want to pay a whole lot more than necessary for construction.

ICFHybrid,

It isn't the standard way, but I think it is a better way. I am not trying to build the cheapest house, but the best house I can. If I wanted the cheapest, then I wouldn't be going with ICF. You do have to re-think how the deal is structured.

Let's assume that there is something that could be done differently, it would save $10K and be just as good.

Contractor A and B both see the opportunity and contractor C is oblivious. Contractor A bids as specified, hoping to get the change made and pocket $10K profit, but running no risk if the change isn't approved. Contractor B bids $5K less hoping to get the change made after he wins and pocket and extra $5K, but risks losing $5K if he has to build to spec.

If I go with A, there is no advantage to me if the house is built to spec or with the change. Big advantage to A if the spec is changed, but I don't have a better or cheaper house. Contractor A is likely to feel that he is down $10K if the spec change isn't approved.

If I go with B, same issues but I do get a $5K cheaper house. However, if I don't approve the specification change, then B will be very unhappy. He either has to eat the loss or find another way of getting $5K out of his costs just to break even. Cutting corners is one obvious way to do that.

Nobody wins with contractor C except the workers or the people selling materials for the extra $10K.

It all becomes a shell game trying to hide what they know to get an advantage and likely being disappointed if the advantage they think the are going to get doesn't materialize.

Now imagine that as the architect designs the house, the builder is imagining how he would implement each step of the way. The same opportunity for a change gets incorporated into the design early on. The builder knows why everything is in the design because he was part of the process. The architect knows ever part of the design is feasible because the builder was part of the process. I know that the design I like is going to be the house I get.

If I chose contractor C, then the house costs the same as having done the competitive bids. With A or B, the house costs $10K less. In short, I am no worse off and may be better off.

Now if the deal is done such that whatever the design, the contractor will submit a bid and I have to take it, you are right, I'll end up paying a much larger amount for the house. The contractor has no incentive to not pad the bid with profit because there is no competition.

But what if the deal was a flat fee for the contractor (done as payments based on satisfactory completion of milestones) or as a percentage basis of the total (like the architect is likely to be paid). As the home owner, I bear the risks that something will change and the costs go up. But realistically, I have always borne that risk. If costs goes up, the contractor is likely to cut corners, find a way to recoup in a change order or have already padded their profit so I am paying whether the costs change or not.

The model I like best is the architect builder. The architect is also the general contractor. He has an ongoing relationship with the subs. The advantages of knowing why the design is so and how it will be built is gained. There is no finger pointing, just one point of contact for making things right. Unfortunately, I can't find any architect-builder firms in St. Louis, let alone one that I like. I know of two good firms that I would use in a heartbeat in Texas, but St. Louis is terra incognito for me.

Quite frankly, the whole construction industry looks like it could use some shaking up to me. From what I can see in the economic portents, that shake up is likely to happen. The largest purchase most people will ever make is made with very poor exchange of information. It is so easy for a dishonest contractor to make things look good while covering up shoddy work beneath the surface. It is hard for an honest contractor to win with a higher bid based on doing things right. What I am trying to find is that honest contractor who takes pride in doing things right and then make a deal that doesn't penalize them for doing the right thing the first time.

I am not trying to build the cheapest house, but the best house I can

I can see that now.

I do want to point out that there are honest contractors that are efficient and those that aren't so efficient and there will be a price difference between them. The most expensive isn't necessarily the best. In fact, what I've found the last couple years is that I am getting the best results from the ones that are more efficient, i.e. the harder working ones. The bonus is that they have the lower bids. They seem to be more flexible and have a bigger skillset.

You should contact several architects and do a preliminary design competition with them in which they pitch their design and skills to you. Minimal cost and things stand out much better after working with each one a little.

The architect needs to be responsible for all parts of the design including things that might be done better. I've found that if you have a good one, they run circles around the contractors in that respect ten to one.

Even with the best builder and architect, you will need someone to make frequent inspections while the house is under construction.  Trust but verify.

ICFhybrid,

I agree that there ar great contractors out there. The trick for me is to find one where I want to build. A great architect can help a marginal builder. A great builder can help a marginal contractor. Ideally I find a way to get both (or at least one). I certainly want to try for both. Unfortunately this brings me back to my starting point of looking to the architect and block distributor for recommendations on contractors.

Alton,

I couldn't agree with you more. But that won't make it any easier to do this remotely. Hopefully the architect can do some of this. On the other hand, if I could find the needle in a haystack of a retired contractor in St. Louis with experience in the building techniques that wanted to work a few hours a week as an inspector, that would be great. It would be cheaper than lots of plane trips. But I am already in a quandary on how to find the great contractor, let alone an inspector to verify the contractor is building according to plans and doing the little things right.

Unfortunately this brings me back to my starting point of looking to the architect and block distributor for recommendations on contractors.

It's gonna take some footwork. You really do have to run around and talk to the people who are building ICF in the area. Unfortunately, it's not enough to listen to their stories, you will have to see what they have done and work from there. You can also start with the Readi-Mix companies or the pump truck operators. They know who does a lot of ICF and who they feel comfortable with.

Hi yetanotherjohn, My wife and I are beginning the process you started last year. I would like to know if you found an architect and building that you can work with. We will be building near Gravois and Ohio with ICF. Thanks! Any help/advise you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Hey there,

My name is Ryan Gunn, I own MidSouth ICF Builders. I am out of Bowling Green Kentucky but cover most of the MidSouth and Midwest. I am originally from Florissant Missouri and still have a lot of friends in the industry there. Please send me a personal message on here to get my email because I don't think they will allow phone numbers and emails on the threads. I would be more than happy to help you with the process and work with you on your new home. Thanks!

Ryan Gunn

Yetanotherjohn and GettingStarted did you end up building ICF and who did you use in the St. Louis region? We are looking for lots to build in the St. Charles area and are interested in building with ICF. Thanks in advance!