All, I am planning on building an green roof (earth sheltered) house. The only place where I still need to make decisions are outside walls. I would prefer to use stucco. Everyone recommends I use "stick built" front walls, but to me it just feels unnatural. I was unable to find a local builder to potentialy "bid" on ICF (but I only reached out to a couple), and even a manufacturer like Quadlock didn't bother responding to my query. What's the forum advice? Building is in Northern VA (west of Washington DC)

I think the industry speak is something like $13 - $18 per square foot of wall. My opinion is that you had best be ready for more like $16 - $21. It depends heavily on how adept and efficient the builder is with ICF.  Prices vary for reasons of concrete, transportation, etc, so that is just an off-the-cuff number.

First and foremost, find out if there is a QUALIFIED ICF contractor in your area. By qualified I mean an ICF contractor who has done over a dozen structures. Then go back and contact the homeowners/ business owners of those projects and see what they have to say.

If you cannot find a qualified ICF contractor, DO NOT let some run of the mill contractor try and convince you they can "do" ICF even though they have no experience. You will pay for it both monetarily and problem wise. There was a thread on here a few weeks ago about an ICF job that the wall is out of square by 5" and numerous voids throughout the wall structure.

As far as cost, that is area dependent, but for 2013 the "average" cost is around $15 per sq ft of wall space (which includes window areas). This is for everything: ICF, rebar, concrete, labor, shoring, etc.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 16 Mar 2013 10:12 AM
I think the industry speak is something like $13 - $18 per square foot of wall. My opinion is that you had best be ready for more like $16 - $21. It depends heavily on how adept and efficient the builder is with ICF.  Prices vary for reasons of concrete, transportation, etc, so that is just an off-the-cuff number.

At $21 per sqft of wall space, that is pretty insane and would blow most people out of the water. I've never heard of it being that expensive in the S/W USA. $15 per sqft is about the going rate today out here. InsulDeck would be around $18-$20 per sqft.

At that rate, ICF might as well put itself out of business. 99% of potential builders/homeowners will not pay that amount for an ICF wall.

Thanks. I won't do ICF unless I can find someone experienced. I was wondering if my inability to find anyone has to do with a relatively small size of my project (on ICF side).

I've never heard of it being that expensive in the S/W USA

Yeah, well, the median home price in Las Vegas is half that of Seattle. I had quotes in excess of $25/sf from builders who did just about exclusively ICF.

I was wondering if my inability to find anyone has to do with a relatively small size of my project

I wouldn't think that would be a problem. Some might welcome it as a quick job.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 17 Mar 2013 12:50 AM

I've never heard of it being that expensive in the S/W USA

Yeah, well, the median home price in Las Vegas is half that of Seattle. I had quotes in excess of $25/sf from builders who did just about exclusively ICF.

Wow, $25+ per sqft of wall area for ICF? That is truly ludicrous.

What does concrete run per yard up in Seattle?

Even with the median prices being 50% less in Las Vegas vs Seattle, these Vegas homes are foreclosed homes and some are selling for less than replacement costs. There is no way it costs TWICE as much to build an ICF home up in Seattle.

3,500psi mix is around $85 a yard here in AZ. Rebar is around $1,200 per ton. ICF forms are around $3.25 sqft. Labor costs plus fees to do the work runs around $3.00 per sqft. Throw in misc items and such:

How on earth did they get that pricing per sqft? Does concrete cost $200 a yard in Washington? Even so, it still wouldn't come out to $63k! With 2,500 square feet of wall space one would need around 47 yards of concrete (6" form). 47yards x $85 = $4,000

2,500sqft x $3.25 ICF forms = $8,125
2,500sqft x $3.00 labor = $7,500
47yards x $85 yard concrete = $4,000
2 tons rebar = $2,400

$22k plus misc (pumper, contractor fee, etc) = $33k +/- or $13 per wall sqft.

2,500sqft of wall space (including windows) will run you around $33k or $13 per sqft of wall space. If someone bid it at $25 per sqft of wall space or $62.5K, they were clinically insane and looking for a sucker.

How on earth did they get that pricing per sqft?

I don't really know. I didn't use them, but they seem to have a full schedule of both high-end and moderate homes.

When I look at your numbers, this is what jumps out at me.

Steel reinforcing for seismic resistance was 3 lbs per square foot which doesn't include the corners and overlap, so double your steel to start, not to mention labor on it.
Lowest possible price I ever saw written down for forms was $4.50/foot but the distributors were trying hard to get $5.50 and up and that was for about 4 full trucks. Don't know what contractors CAN get it for, delivered.
If you assume a labor cost of $30/hr for the crew you get about 2 weeks to complete that job for a 3 man crew. That seems a bit light to set, wire, brace, place and remove forms. My crew was on site for 5 months.

If you redo it all, you're up to $35K without pumping and profit. The cost of mud can impact a job, but it's usually labor. Working it all out gets you to a cost more like what I paid, but enough to make you think that $13/foot is a bit skinny for quality construction.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 17 Mar 2013 11:39 AM

I don't really know. I didn't use them, but they seem to have a full schedule of both high-end and moderate homes.

I am confident the problem is NOT ICF related but it is based on contractor markups. So it doesn't matter if it's ICF or stick frame. Case-in-point, for a 3,000sqft home the plans were given to 3 different GC's, all of whom were qualified and known for good quality. The same insulation, framing, finishing, etc, were specified so as to get an accurate quote. The 3 GC's returned their bids and they were $90 sqft, $180 sqft and $140 sqft.

In reality, the reasoning for the vast differences in cost is because of GC markup. The $90 sqft contractor is still making money but the $180 wanted to make a killing. It can't cost twice as much to build a wood frame home if it is the same exact home in the same exact area.

That is what is happening with the ICF because the ICF building trade is limited in available and qualified GC contractors, the bids can come in high if the contractors are in sort of a monopoly or "conspiracy" scenario. You don't have the same ICF contractor supply vs. demand in some areas and the 3 ICF contractors in the area might all come in really high.

So the $25 per sqft of ICF wall area is not because it costs that much to do an ICF home. Even with another ton of rebar and the added labor. It's because the ICF contractors want to make a huge profit on the job. They might only do 1 or 2 homes a year so they figure they have to make a huge profit per job in order to be viable.

I am the Virginia Quad Lock Dealer and I will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have. Please let me know when it will be convienient to meet for a site visit?

It's because the ICF contractors want to make a huge profit on the job.

Its not so much that they want to make a huge profit on the job, but that different people have different approaches to work. Some employees are more productive than others and so are some contractors. I have seen this time and again with subcontractors in the building trades, particularly where the performance metrics are less well defined. That can happen with ICF and in particular, custom residential construction. You can come in and complete a job in two weeks for less money and take home a higher hrly rate than someone who takes 4 weeks to do the same job. And, don't assume that a 4 week job is done "better" than a 2 week job.

Sorry I didn't see this earlier. PolycreteUSA is local. Your cost in Northern VA will be about $12 per sqft of wall.There are a number of qualified contractors. I sent you a private message.

Bruce,

If you can show that you have builders who can build residential for that with your product, then you need to get busy and write up some fresh industry papers documenting it and showing off the results. I will be one of the first to help promote it.

Thanks all. I contacted Bruce and Quadlock dealer.

What would be an average cost to "stick built" insulated wall?
We will be using stucco, so anything concrete will be probably better than wood for that
Internally can use plaster or drywall (haven't decided yet.. also depends on cost to install.. but our building will have a lot of curving walls, so plaster may just be easier)

I've never heard of a framer quoting by s/f of wall. They quote by s/f under roof.

Posted By NetComrade on 19 Mar 2013 01:46 PM
Thanks all. I contacted Bruce and Quadlock dealer.

What would be an average cost to "stick built" insulated wall?
We will be using stucco, so anything concrete will be probably better than wood for that
Internally can use plaster or drywall (haven't decided yet.. also depends on cost to install.. but our building will have a lot of curving walls, so plaster may just be easier)

It's hard to compare ICF wall sqft vs. wood frame, the wood frame industry does not quote wall square footage. They are 2 different animals and the wood frame building process involves a lot of different variables.

ICF is typically 10% high when comparing envelope to envelope. The benefits are apparent when you take into account the efficiency and freedom of angles and curves without the limitations of wood construction.