I am wanting to build a 2 story house with a full basement with a walkout. The house will also have a built  on 2 car garage. My question is would it be feasible to build something like this with full ICF walls from the basement to the roof? What would the major pros and cons be?

Thanks

When I was looking at some ICF homes, I noticed that the homeowner only wanted to use walls as ICF and not having a concrete flooring system.  So, when they had a second floor, the second floor walls had to be supported by first floor walls.  Unfortunately, for some of the home owners on their small lots, there is a requirement that the minimum distance between the lot line to the exterior wall was not the same for the first floor and the second floor., with the second floor requiring a greater setback than the first floor.

Therefore, many of the interior walls on the first floor were also ICF, and it made the house have walls where it normally wouldn't make sense with the new idea of an open floor plan.

I was told that by having an Amdeck or similar type of flooring, you can have ICF walls on the second floor ICF walls in places other  than just on top of other ICF walls.

I presume the basement would follow the footprint of the first floor, so this issue isn't relevant with regards to the transition from basement to first floor.

In the end for me, it didn't matter, because in California, basements are extremely expensive and it crushed my budget, and my wife didn't want a two story house.

a walk out is doable and so is ICf to the roof line 2nd story. The 2nd story floor is inside hung. rimjoists are hung on the icf walls during the pour with concrete L anchors punched into the concrete cavity during pouring. then the floor is hung in the manner of a deck, with hangers. just continue the walls to the roof. lintels are used over openings. I have a 14' opening on my first floor with a 10' ICF wall directly over it. For the basement, wrap the entire underground section with rubber. since you cannot "seal" coat the concrete, you will need a barrier so it doesn't leak. My house is 5k sqft with a walkout and second floor Icf and attached 30x40 garage, Icf also. geothermal with all floors radiant inc garage. pretty sweet.

xcash : got any pictures of your house?

You don't say where you are going to build. I say this because where I build in South Carolina you are NOT going to use icf for a basement. Code prohibits foam contact with the ground. Check with your local BO before you waste time.

One can build a basement & two-story home with ICF, it's done all the time. The costs will be higher up front over stick built but it all depends on what your goals are. Each building method has its advantages and disadvantages.

What location are you building in?
What are you biggest goals for this home?

In my part of SC (Greenville County), ICF basements are fine, as long as you use approved barriers. I used peel and stick plus dimple board.

Im in New Brunswick Canada. Goals are a quite efficient house. We get alot of wind as I am up on a small mountain .

Posted By TrxR on 29 Mar 2014 08:25 AM
Im in New Brunswick Canada. Goals are a quite efficient house. We get alot of wind as I am up on a small mountain .

If you are looking for quiet, ICF is the way to go. STC levels of 55+
If you are looking for strength, ICF is the way to go. A 6" concrete reinforced core in an ICF wall is 4x stronger than a 2x6 double OSB sheared wood frame wall. No worries about any "racking" in the winds with an ICF home.

As far as energy efficiency goes. An ICF wall with 2.5" of EPS x2, will give you a real-world R-23 value with no thermal bridging and air infiltration ratings are non-existent to very low as long as you pay attention to window and door details. Don't forget the top plate to roof area also.

Posted By TrxR on 28 Mar 2014 09:57 PM
xcash : got any pictures of your house?

Here's a two storey c/w walkout Sorry can't get the pic to attach.

ba.......this makes no sense at all.


there is a requirement that the minimum distance between the lot line to the exterior wall was not the same for the first floor and the second floor.,

You can't compare the two. Stick built homes are simply upgrades to cabins.. ICF all the way will outlast generations to come. Indestructable.Comfortable and secure to live in.

Posted By robinnc on 29 Mar 2014 10:16 PM
ba.......this makes no sense at all.


there is a requirement that the minimum distance between the lot line to the exterior wall was not the same for the first floor and the second floor.,

in my town, first floor setback is 10' to side lot lines.  second floor setback is 17.5' to side lot lines.  so, if i want to build a house to the maximum size, then the first floor footprint is bigger than the second floor footprint.  we also have daylight planes that also force the second floor roof line to angle back, so depending on your architecture, i.e. gables or hip roofs, it will also affect the wall location.

we don't have specific front setback rules to differentiate between first floor and second floor, but we have a planning office that frowns upon two story walls.  so it is possible to have the second story wall be a continuation of the first floor, but you need to break it up with a roof extension or something.  i only have a single story house, but i created a second story dormer which is just a continuation of my first floor wall, but it doesn't look like it is.

i hope that clarifies things.  i think the OP is living in the mountains, so he probably doesn't have all of these rules and regulations that my town and the surrounding towns impose on us.

When I see a Stick built house,
I always remind fairy tale "three little pigs".
It is funny.

Every day, I leave a stick built house I constructed myself, over an ICF basement, drive past the house my father built, then drive past a house my grandfather built, and then drive past a house built by my great- great grandfather, next up are 2 houses built in the 1700’s.
I do agree that we often build with materials that don’t exactly have longevity in mind, but a well constructed stick built house can last along time. A few years ago I got to chat with a German home builder. There is no question that what they build is an order of magnitude better then what we build. Just one example- they don’t use asphalt shingles, because they don’t last long enough, any roofing material must last more than 100 years. On the other hand, my friends son has a 45 year mortgage on a 500,000 euro 1600 sf house. That is a tough sell over here. Not something I could afford to buy.

6 generations of my relatives have lived in the same farmhouse- I hate to break it to you, but it was not built from ICf.

Cheers,
Eric

I agree stick builds can last a long time as my parents live in a 100 year old home as do some of their neighbors as they are old farm houses.

Posted By Eric Anderson on 30 Mar 2014 09:28 AM

6 generations of my relatives have lived in the same farmhouse- I hate to break it to you, but it was not built from ICf.

Cheers,
Eric

One of the biggest factors with that is the lumber used 100+ years ago is not the lumber we use today. Everything today is from young growth trees, everything back then was from old growth trees. The difference is that the old growth lumber was very dense and had very little moisture in it. The same can't be said about today's dimensional lumber.  Even so, the structures built in the 1800s and 1900s needed a lot of upkeep to make them inhabitable. Rot still happened, albeit slower, and This Old House clearly showed that it isn't inexpensive or easy to remodel a home that is that old.

Glu-lam and VLT timber is where the advancements have taken place. Sadly, the 2x4, 2x6, etc lumber is not on par with the yesteryear lumber or the glu-lam timber. We can't get the yesteryear lumber anymore (unless you can harvest your own old growth forest) and the glu-lam is expensive.

Some of the oldest man-made structures on planet earth that are still standing today are masonry. They have withstood fires, rains, storms, wars, and the constant bombardment by nature.

Concrete/masonry is much more forgiving to neglect than wood.

A lot is regional dependent. It is better to utilize wood in the Pacific NW than it is in the desert SW. Out here in the desert, building with wood just keeps the termites well-feed and happy. As they say out here, it's not IF you get termites it's WHEN you get termites. Then you have the wildfire danger. Nothing like building an efficient dream home to just have it burn to the ground when the first high-desert wildfire sweeps through. What's the embodied energy in that scenario? Build 100 wood homes, burn 100 wood homes, build 100 wood homes again and wait for them to burn again.

Just to add another note of perspective, when I first started going into previously closed off parts of Eastern Europe there were always three questions that people wanted to ask once the vodka started flowing.

One of them was "Is it true that in the United States, you build houses out of sticks?" My answer was, "Well, studs...wood....timbers, yeah, sure......I guess they are sticks."

The result would always be grins and amazed chortles and incredulous looks.

Termites will get into ICF, and it has been documented that the will tunnel all the way to the wooden roof structure (if you have one). No, they won't hurt the ICF, but they still can get to the wood, and you'll never see them. My ICF basement has two barriers, and we have an annual termite contract.

I can vouch for how impervious concrete is. I recently bored a 2-1/2" hole for a mini-split refrigerant line. Not an easy task!

Actually, The majority of framing lumber in my house was from Sweden. Having traveled there a bit, there is still a heck of a lot of quality timber there. The local lumber yard I dealt with still had nice framing lumber- other places, not so much.

My take on the ICF vs stick built house - I am living in a house that is ICF for the basement and stick built 2x6 OVE+ R6 outsulation from there up. In my case it would have added~ 8000$ to go ICF to the rafters vs stick build. The numbers are not the same for me because I do my own framing, but did not feel confident in the concrete work. I considered stacking and pouring my own, but I visited 2 ICF owner builds and neither of them came out well enough for me to be happy with it.
The installer who poured my basement did a fantastic job- best foundation I ever saw- It was as square as I could measure with a tape, It was level within 1/8” over the whole flipping foundation.
 
ICF pros: solid house, low noise transmission, excellent choice in tornado country,. Typical forms yield ~R21 wall assembly’s, Easier to get airtight walls than with stick built, lots of thermal mass so it buffers temp extremes in areas with large daily temp swings. Longevity.

Cons: much harder to modify after the fact, if the installation crew does not get it right the first time, you are screwed, harder to find good installation crews. Mostly you are limited to ~ R21 forms- with some exceptions, subs need some different tools to deal with it. Harder to superinsulate- but not impossible. Generally higher cost for equivalent assembly R values.

Just my take on it- your mileage may vary. Like any other material you can make a great house- you can make a crappy house.
All things considered it makes a very nice house, if done properly.
Cheers, Eric