Hi!
First post on this forum. I am designing a small home with an ICF basement, 20' x 30'. On top of these basement walls I plan on framing the rest of the house (single story double shed roof with clerestory) with 2x6, fiberglass and rigid insulation. On one of the 30' walls, 12' high, I would like to have bricks on the interior. Although I have heard about using ledger blocks, I may still want to use 8" ICF below this brick wall because of the extreme weight (at least 9000 lbs). If you have another opinion here please give your thoughts, I am interested in as much information as possible. The rest of the basement walls I want to use 6" ICF though. So- are there corner bricks made specifically for transitioning between 6" and 8" walls? If not, have you done this in some other way?

Thanks!
Ed

Going from 6 to 8 at the corners could be problematic. 9000# of brick total spread over 30' is only 300# per Linear Foot. Most corbel or brickledge blocks are rated far higher than that. I know the 8" corbel from fox is rated at 2000#/LF. I used it facing inward at the top of my basement wall to support my floor system...

Thank you for the quick reply.

I didn't realize those blocks were capable of holding so much weight. That's reassuring- though I am still imagining a lot of torque on the block from the weight on the ledge, assuming this weight is significantly more than the building weight sitting straight over the center of the ICF wall (I don't know that it will be). Is the rebar/concrete the only thing countering that torque? I need to read up on that more.

So you framed your walls right on top of the concrete and used the ledge on the ledge blocks to hold your floor joists, etc.? From your experience would you suggest doing it this way (as opposed to framing the floor on top of the ICF wall and walls on top of that)?

Thanks!

The weight will mostly be transfered diagonally down thru the brick ledge to the main part of the wall. Any remaining side forces would be restrained by the floor system.

I didn't stick build our main walls. I used 8" ICF for the basement with a 8" corbel/brickledge block facing inward, then stacked 6" ICF on top of the corbel up to the roof with the outer face of the 6" and 8" flush. The corbel gives you about a 4-1/2" shelf with the same size straight block stacked on top of it. so transitioning to 6" on top of the corbel gave me a 6-1/2" shelf to attach a sill plate to and hang the floor trusses from. I used top chord hung trusses so the truss structure hung down over the curved portion of the corbel block so the basement wall finish dosn't have to deal with a curved surface at the top corner.

There are of course a few ways to go from ICF to a framed wall, one is as you mentioned framing the floor on top of the ICF then building the walls on top of that(traditional framing method). I am wondering how the weight of an intrior brick wall would figure into that method though. In an outside brick facade, the brick would continue down to be supported by the footing. Brick on the inside puts the floor system between brick and concrete basement wall/shelf. I guess if the brick wall was parallel to the floor joices, the brick on the inside could pass thru the floor system to rest on the basement wall ledge. That framed wall would of course be taller by the height of the floor joists.

Another way would be by using an ICF taper top block(CC angles out to the edge at the top) for the top course of block With the taper facing inward. You would attach a ledger board around the inside top of the ICF. You would attach the floor joists to this using joist hangars. you couldn't use the corbel with this method as you could not attach the ledger to it. If I read your description correctly you are planning a 2X6 wall with rigid foam on the outside for a total framed wall thickness of say 7 1/2"(2X6 + 2" foam?). A 6" ICF block being around 11-1/4" thick and you place the outer foam of the framed wall flush with the outer ICF foam, that gives you about 3-3/4" of CC inside the framed wall for the brick to rest on.

Another method would be to use 8" block without a taper top In the same fashion as above. This would have the advantage of placing the weight directly on top of the wall instead of the un-reenforced tapered shelf created by a taper top block. Which is not as strong as the corbel ledge block that is re-enforced with rebar. The tapered top block also replaces foam insulation with CC, so it would have more heat loss in that area. The 8" block would maintain full insulation thickness over the concrete. With a structure your size and say 10' tall ICF basement walls, the difference in concrete between a 6" wall(18 yards) and an 8" wall(24 yards) would be about 6 yards of additional CC to fill the 8" forms. Around here that would be about $600, YMMV

You could possibly use the corbel ledge to support top chord trusses like I did with the brick resting on top of the floor structure. In this case the brick would be resting on flat lumber sill and blocking between trusses and not a framed structure, but might require some specific engineering analysis.

There are probably still a few other ways to do this... Of the ones above I probably like the 8" straight block the best as it seems the most simple and potentially troube free with inside brick added to the design mix.

I don't know if you have chosen a type of block, but most block manufacturers have a resource section with examples of these type of engineering details. I am buildig with Fox, so am most familliar with their resouces. Here is a link to their resource section which has autocad and .PDF drawings to look at, which might give you some other ideas.

http://www.foxblocks.com/resource-center/autocad-2d-details/

Good Luck.

I like the TT idea. We did a similar thing. It was ledge type stone. Installed the Simpsons in the TT, ledge stone and framed wall on top of TT. I don't like Brick on wood either. We used 8" Fox Blocks. Worked well.

I really appreciate this detailed response!

You could possibly use the corbel ledge to support top chord trusses like I did with the brick resting on top of the floor structure. In this case the brick would be resting on flat lumber sill and blocking between trusses and not a framed structure, but might require some specific engineering analysis.”

talked to a local ICF guy today who suggested I do this, with or without the ledge/taper block. The plan is for the joists (possibly 2x10) to be running perpendicular to the brick wall, and I could then put in a lot of blocking right under the bricks. It’s still brick on top of wood.

I guess if the brick wall was parallel to the floor joices, the brick on the inside could pass thru the floor system to rest on the basement wall ledge.”

This is a really interesting idea, one I hadn’t considered. The problem is, then I’d need to run my joists 30’, long ways, rather than 20’.
The 8” straight block definitely makes things less complicated for that wall.. I haven’t decided on the supplier yet though I am looking around. There’s a local Amvic guy who’s offered me some good basic info and I need to talk to more. I like how Fox blocks has a lot of good info readily available online…
Anyways, thanks again!

We did a similar thing. It was ledge type stone. Installed the Simpsons in the TT, ledge stone and framed wall on top of TT.

What type of Simpson brackets are you talking about here?

Is there a particular overriding reason you're using brick, other than the aesthetics of it? If not take a hard look at faux brick, or thin brick. You'll have the same visual appearance without the weight and work.

It's mainly the aesthetics and the feel of it. I may be interested in the thin bricks but wouldn't want to use the plastic ones. I have a place where I can get regular bricks for less than getting thin bricks new (from prices I've seen online)

Since this is on the north wall, it would also have the effect of taking a lot of sunlight from the south and acting as thermal mass. Now, I've heard varying opinions on the cost-effectiveness of adding thermal mass, but it would still be there.

The Simpson ICFVL's are what we use a lot. Using a brickledge block is good when using a top-chord bearing truss. If you just set a joist on it there are some finishing issues on the interior of the brickledge block.

Thanks Emmet, I have seen these, and they look pretty nice. The guy I'm talking to about ICF suggested for simplicity (beginner builder here) I not even use these, instead just frame on top of the ICF wall.

I or someone else here can talk you thru using the Simpsons. Your floor will be warmer than setting floor framing on top of the ICF. Simple to install.