I'm planning an ICF build, all electric, zone 4, 1500 sq ft, r50 (ish) blown cellulose in the attic. Will have a wood stove. I've been dancing around the HVAC issue for awhile now and figured I'd make it even MORE complicated. lol I can get these electric hydronic baseboard heaters at cost thru a friend so I figured it's worth investigating. The cost of these is a lot less than a heat pump, or even a mini split heat pump. So is using these, plus the wood stove and mini splits for the AC only insane? Foolish? Utterly Genius? I like the idea of being able to control the heat per room and have always enjoyed the feel of radiant heat over hot air, so there is that aspect of it. Thank you for your assistance. * If it matters, the house will be wired for solar and that should happen in the next couple years. We may start out with a small system with room to expand as the funds allow for more panels.

Where are you building? What is the design temperature for heating in your area? What is the summer cooling load going to be? Have you had a manual J heating/cooling load calculation done? If not, that is your first step. The results of that will be a primary determining factor for the best approach.

Posted By dmaceld on 27 Jun 2018 12:20 AM
Where are you building? What is the design temperature for heating in your area? What is the summer cooling load going to be? Have you had a manual J heating/cooling load calculation done? If not, that is your first step. The results of that will be a primary determining factor for the best approach.

Thank you for the reply. I had a manual J run and this is what was provided. Zone 3 - NW Arkansas (I mistyped when I said zone 4) Single Story - Nudura ICF 6" form Crawl space Design temps Indoor - Summer (70), Winter (75), Realative Humidity (50) Outdoor - Summer (95) Winter (12) Summer grains of moisture (90) Daily Temp Range - (medium) Whole house 1300 - Sensible Gain BTUH - 14, 500 Latent Gain - 3160 total heat gain - 17650 Total heat loss - 32760 It was broken further down by room, living room, foyer, etc but I didn't add all that unless it's needed.

Based on my experience I think you would be better off to use the heat pump for most all your heating and cooling. The majority of the time your heat pump will be operating at a Coefficient of Performance, COP, of at least 2, and greater. That means for every Btu of electricity you put in you get two Btus of heat out. Baseboard is ever only a COP of 1. So the heat from the heat pump will cost you only 1/2 or less of what it will from the baseboard units. Also, no greater than your heat load is I say pitch the idea of shutting heat off in various rooms. With ICF it's just not worth the hassle to bounce your house temps up and down. Keep them constant all around the house. It'll be worth it for the added comfort. Take into account heat generated by everyday living. Also see if you can figure out the heat load for 85 or 90% of the time. It'll be less than for the design temps. You may be able to get by easily with a 2 ton heat pump, although if you get one with an inverter driven compressor a larger one will run only at the level needed to meet the heating/cooling need. Keep the wood stove for a backup or supplemental heat source and for the Sunday afternoons when it's cold outside and watching a fire is just the thing to do!

Are you still in the design phase? Consider doing what I did. Use a Daikin, or similar, heat pump and dump the heat into the crawl space with floor registers all around the perimeter. Put the following into a Google search box: crawl space dmaceld site:greenbuildingtalk.com. You'll get hits on my postings about how I heat my house using the crawl space for the supply plenum.

Here is a list of topics from years past that I have been a part of discussing heat loads, heat pumps, and such. Read through them until your eyes glaze over!! You'll pick up a lot good info.

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/14/aft/84710/afv/topic/Default.aspx (especially last post)

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/83484/afv/topic/Default.aspx

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/21/aft/83461/afv/topic/Default.aspx

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/82417/afv/topic/Default.aspx

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/78497/afv/topic/Default.aspx

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/56188/afv/topic/Default.aspx

That’s a post! Lol. Thanks for the continued reading, I’m off to google it now. Sounds interesting. I did stumble onto cove radiant heaters as well but suspect they may fall into the same category as the baseboard heaters?

Just to elaborate a bit, the design is basically done, blueprints re being made, just need to decide on our HVAC situation. We have bounced all over on this issue and I will admit it's been the most frustrating out of the whole deal. We really don't want to deal with ductwork but the mini splits were becoming cost prohibitive. We will use the wood stove most days in the winter, not just as an ancillary or backup heat as we have access to loads of free firewood. We have found that for us, a wood stove near a ceiling fan in the living room makes for a very comfortable house not only for the living areas, but sleeping in the back bedrooms. It keeps everything warm but leaves the bedrooms cooler so you're not baking in your sheets. I will also readily admit that I am trying my best to make a non ducted HVAC system work, but I don't want to be foolish. If I have to go with ducted, so be it. I realize there will be SOME ductwork with the ERV/HRV but that is simpler and won't leave us with ductwork all over the floor. I would like to leave registers out of the bathrooms and use radiant heat with exhaust fans there but there comes a point when it's eaters too complex or downright idiotic you just have to accept fate. This will be our first ICF house and I know all the benefits, but it's hard to predict how we will actually use our HVAC on a personal level. The radiant heat is appealing since it's an extension of the wood stove that we love. (side note - We have a woodstock soapstone stove that is AMAZING and we will absolutely use it again in this next home. The gentle but effective heat and efficiency are second to none in our limited scope of experience) I've just had such a bad experience with ducted systems, the flex duct pests freeze ups, systems frying in the middle of the winter or summer, inefficiency, etc, etc I have come to really detest them. I realize a new system, IF INSTALLED PROPERLY, will be different, but I am apprehensive. So I keep hoping I can find a solution that doesn't cost 1/3 of the entire build or force me to have 6 systems. lol

Hi Rykertest,
The question is what is your main objective?
1. Wood is the cheapest form of heat even if you have to purchase it.
2. Heat pump can be next cheapest form but I see it varying with climate and installation.
3. Electric baseboard is one of the most expensive forms of heating but there is nothing that come close as far as maintenance and reliability. Just works even if you had it running for 15 years or more non-stop.

Most people look for cost effective heat but if cost is not so much issue you cannot find simpler and trouble free heat than electric baseboard. Even installation is easier then any other form of heat.
If you do install baseboards have each room on its own thermostats. This will let you control each room and will greatly reduce your heating cost.
I'm building ICF home too but currently I live in 2x4 stick house with electric heat. Winters can get very cold here in the Northeast. We turn down our termostat down to low 60's when we are at work and kids are in school. I have our main living area come on about 1 hr before we get home up to 70. Later in the evening our bedrooms come on and living area downstairs goes back down to 62-63 around 11PM than up again before we get up 6AM. Everything in my house is electric (hot water, stove) and my bill is lower than my neighbor with geothermal. He has to run 24 hours a day at the constant temp. If he lets his go down it will take days to bring the temps up again.

It sounds to me that baseboard heat can be best back up option for your, its always there and ready. If you combine this with thermostat in each room in ICF house of your size it may not be cheapest form of heat but likely cheaper than any of your neighbors. After living i the house with electric heat for 15 years I learned to appreciated ,there are many benefits.

fitted underfloor 17years ago to an older house --routed all the chipboard floors and fitted pipes in them ,then 8mm plywood on top to bring strength back +added insulation to whole house--now there are easier ways to do it ,no mains gas so lpg --2 years ago swoped gas boiler for air source heat pump --we get grants for it --saved £1000 on heating bill on fuel alone last year not including government grants
I live in Scotland, we have lots of cold damp weather ,best description of climate would be continous damp spring with occassional summer
average winter temp for heating calculations in +3c-heat pump worked fine even when winter temps get down to -15c--but effiecncy is not good at that temp --normally get a COP of close to 3