Building in Zone 7. 50 degree temp 95% of the year, 5 % of the year gets up to 65 degree. Given the constant cold temp, I am thinking extra insulation is better than more concrete. I am leaning towards knockdown style forms due to having high shipping container cost to the island. What vendors should I price ? Labor is cheaper than shipping. Any rough price guidance also helps, it is hard to know what to price as vendors like Nudora have plus, and various options. I have also been looking at options like Fox Blocks and adding energy sticks, or ripping my own sticks. 4500 sq ft with 16 45 degrees 4 T's. What vendors do extra insulation options ? What vendors are the best bang for the buck, most likely shipping from the seattle or vancover area, anchorage is also an option but probably costs more. I will box truck to the shipping site, all costs will be will call pickup. Thanks in advance

It think BuildBlock also has knock down forms. I would just pick the closest vender. It took over 2 semi trucks to deliver our order. A knock down form might have cut that in half.

Good Luck.

Note: These posts talk mainly about BuildBlock's offerings from sheer convenience.
Much of the advice on figuring materials and obtaining pricing is more or less ubiquitous for all ICF vendors.


Yep. BuildBlock has their BuildLock knockdown forms. Their knock-down system is simply more limited (flat wall and corner pieces only).
They also have ThermalSert KD (for Knockdown installs) insulation inserts.

So you pick how thick you want the concrete portion of the wall to be. Figure out how much extra insulation you want to add to the outside surface of the wall. Then pick the connector webs of the appropriate size to accommodate the wall thickness (they claim to support wall thickness in excess of 24").

Thermalsert inserts come in 1", 2" and 4" with an approximate value of of R-4.2/inch.
The BuildLock block panels are 2-1/2" thick with a base R value of R-21

So if you want a 6" concrete wall and an R-value of 35+

* BuildLock Panels
* 10" Webbing
* 4" ThermalSert KD Panels

You wind up with a wall assembly of R-37.8.

Also, you want to place the majority of your insulation to the exterior, as it pushes the wall's dew point outward into the insulation layer.
Just don't forget proper detailing of the insulation where it will meet the foundation.

And if you want pricing, figure out how much you need in the way of blocks.
If you're going with a THICK wall depth (something in excess of 12"), you'll also need Bridge Connectors to string the bridges together to make up the thicker webbing.
Then you figure out how much you need in the way of your ThermalSert KDs.
Factor in door and window bucks as well if you're using their BuildBuck product.
Also factor in flooring if you're using their BuildDeck product.

Once you've got this done, figure in an extra margin for blocks, spare webbing and inserts to cover damage, imperfections, loss of material, etc for everything.

Also be aware that BB is a vendor for Form-A-Drain and FastFoot, they sell metal flashing for temite/fireblock barriers, ICF bracing, Simpson ties, waterproofing, adhesives, etc, etc.

Talk with your builder and engineer to figure out what you need to buy.  What can be gotten/created locally.

Then submit a request to the BuildBlock guys and see what their pricing is.

Note: A great number of vendors offer insert-based extra insulation.
CAN you cut such things yourself? Sure.
It becomes a tradeoff between materials cost and labor costs.
You can toss a box of inserts into a wall in about 5 minutes.
How long will it take you to learn how to cut one properly?
How long will it take you to cut them all?

I can actually pull FoxBlocks full retail pricing right off the Menards.com website.
Note this is their standard pre-assembled FoxBlocks. Not their FoxBlocks Compact knockdown product. Expect a price premium

https://www.menards.com/main/search.html?sf_categoryHierarchy=&search=ICF

FoxBlocks 6" flat wall pieces are $22/each.
FoxBlocks 8" flat wall pieces are $24/each

6" 90 degree corners are $30/each
8" corners are $33/each
10" corners are $38/each
12" corners are $44/each

Did you check our Nudura's XR35 block? https://nudura.com/divisions/nudura-products/plus-series/nuduraicf_xr35-form

I think I would go this way rather than the Plus Series that has extra EPS added to the standard form (since the XR35 is fully molded).

Inserts are another option. Or simply use a regular ICF and add a product like this after concrete is poured (strips would provide fastening for exterior finish if needed): https://www.nudura.com/divisions/nudura-products/integrated-series/homega-system

Yes, the XR35 would be a good idea if you're simply wishing to hit R35.
If you want still higher R-values, you'll still need to fart with inserts.

And no, the Homega isn't something you want. You still need to add insulation to the exterior or you wind up cold-bridging the wall and bringing the dewpoint into the wall assembly itself.

Homega is an option for existing basements, in lieu of framing and batt insulation where you usually don't have the option of trenching out to put on exterior insulation.
But if you're building NEW? Even STANDARD ICF just makes more sense.

And no, you don't want to add Homega to the exterior surface of an existing ICF install either.
You're basically wasting fasteners and fastener space attaching foam to foam.

It simply makes more sense to go with a wider webbing/bridge and add the foam panel inboard of the existing form, which leaves you with a perfectly uniform exterior face to attach your exterior finish to.

FWIW-

Nudura quoted me 6, 8 and 10" block for the same price. And their 7.5"x32" - 2" thick inserts for $1.90 each. That makes their inserts about $.57 per bd ft.
Alternatively, I can get full sheets of 2" polyiso for $13 each. I can rip it down to 12- 7.5"x48" strips. That makes the polyiso $.21 per bd ft.

Nudura price includes shipping and tax, requires no cutting, locks in with the little dovetails.

The problem is the Foamular doesn't interlock the way the spec-built panels would.
And you'll have gaps above and below the webs, reducing the whole-wall value of your insulation job.
You'll also need to spend out for some way to fasten the strips to the interior of the form.

I agree with all of your points. It would be a tradeoff to use the polyiso.

Another data point based on my recent Nudura quotes:

Cost for 6,8 or 10" Nudura including shipping, form lock, peel and stick, foam adhesive and Zip ties $3.93/sf for approx R22-24

Additional cost for 2" inserts $1.07/sf for total of R33
Additional cost for 4" inserts $2.12/sf for total of R40

Cost for XR35- $6.27/sf for R35, but only comes in 8" block


Adding reclaimed 2" polyiso from 3rd party $0.40/sf for total of R34-35ish. This would require labor to rip down and a method of locking into your forms as noted above and likely will have an R-value reduction due to not having a perfect fit

ThermaGreen Blox is a redesigned Polyurethane ICF, we just achieved a Class 1 fire rating with a 5' per hour burn rate. Polyurethane is a little more than an R 7 per inch and our BloX are 2.5" thick per form panel, making it a total of 5" of insulation resulting in over R 35 insulation resistance.

Call us at 801-449-1033, please leave a message if the line is busy.

We sell blocks in 5" and 7". Call me for a quick quote. $16.95 per form for either size plus shipping. We manufacture straights and corners.

Kristina
Belco ICF
ICF4Less.com
(260) 367-2121

The Nudura X-35 is the best bang for the buck. Same Shipping as knockdown forms as they ship flat. The Time and $ Saving having a ready made block vs playing the insert game is huge. Unless you all work for free you need to value someones time. The other thing most don't see is the attachment points are the same distance as the normal Nudura blocks at 5/8" from the surface. Unless you use inserts which take time, if you add foam to the exterior attachment points will then be more difficult. For Basements, climate zones 6 and above and just people wanting the best, hard to go wrong.

Posted on the wrong message.

Posted By scapaldo on 11 Feb 2020 06:05 PM
I agree with all of your points. It would be a tradeoff to use the polyiso.

Another data point based on my recent Nudura quotes:

Cost for 6,8 or 10" Nudura including shipping, form lock, peel and stick, foam adhesive and Zip ties $3.93/sf for approx R22-24

Additional cost for 2" inserts $1.07/sf for total of R33
Additional cost for 4" inserts $2.12/sf for total of R40

Cost for XR35- $6.27/sf for R35, but only comes in 8" block


Adding reclaimed 2" polyiso from 3rd party $0.40/sf for total of R34-35ish. This would require labor to rip down and a method of locking into your forms as noted above and likely will have an R-value reduction due to not having a perfect fit

Hi, first time posting here. I was wondering how were you able to get a response from a Nudura distributor? I have been sending emails to a few of them in the North East, with detailed requests but none is responding. If I may ask, for which state did you get those prices?

Scapaldo, Thank you for getting back to me.

I believe the X-35 only comes in 8" core. That was a deal breaker for me. Adding 33% to the concrete cost over a 6" form is pretty huge.

The best way to increase r-value and the cheapest way is to add 2" reclaimed Iso board to the inside of the wall. Cost a lot less and quicker than the inserts.

Posted By scapaldo on 22 Nov 2020 11:56 PM
I believe the X-35 only comes in 8" core. That was a deal breaker for me. Adding 33% to the concrete cost over a 6" form is pretty huge.

Looking at Nudura's website it looks like the XR35 is now available in both 6" and 8". This looks like a great option since labour would be no extra vs a standard ICF product when compared to inserts, panels, etc. This would save in overall installed cost. The other option would be using the 8" XR35 with a 2" insert if you wanted more R-value (this would be approx R43).