doweling slab to wall
Last Post 14 May 2020 01:04 PM by smartwall. 40 Replies.
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rszimmUser is Offline
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22 Apr 2020 04:59 PM
I'm a bit confused about how to dowel the slab to the wall. Here's the image on the plans: https://i.imgur.com/ttTJul8.png
Three questions:
1. Does this mean the long part of the hook has to be 6' long? If so, why? The lap schedule only states a 32" overlap on a #4, so can't I just have it extend 32" and tie it in with the slab rebar grid?
2. How do I get those hooks into the wall? Do I cut a huge slit the size of the hook end and slip it in, or is there some better way?
3. How do I deal with all these damn dowels sticking out getting in the way of my bracing and being trip hazards as I'm working?

Attachment: Annotation_2020-04-22_100440.png

sailawayrbUser is Offline
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22 Apr 2020 07:04 PM
The dowels should be “L” shape. The base of the “L” is about 6 inches long. The side of the “L” should protrude about 24 inches above the footing. The size of the dowels are usually #4 rebar and we schedule them 12 inches on center, but your structural engineer should specify the size and schedule for your location/building. You need to locate the dowels such that they enter the center of ICF block cavities and NOT where the webs are located. They sell plastic orange caps that you can place on top of the dowels to improve safety when working around them until the ICF blocks cover them. We like to place a 2 inch length of 1 1/4 inch diameter PVC pipe around the dowels to enable easily securing the vertical rebar to the dowels after all the ICF blocks are in place.


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rszimmUser is Offline
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22 Apr 2020 09:00 PM
Thanks. The vertical hooks into the footer are fine. They comply with the rebar lap-splice schedule (32" for #4 w/ 3000psi in this case). There's not any issue there. The question revolves around the horizontal dowels that lock the slab (to be poured at a later date) to the walls of the ICF. My first question revolves around a notation on the plan I'm not familiar with:
The next two questions are on how exactly I go about getting those hooks into the side of the ICF (cut a big hole and them foam in over I'm thinking), and finally how do I deal with all these damn dowels sticking out the side of the wall while I'm working in there, setting my bracing, etc..


rszimmUser is Offline
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22 Apr 2020 09:05 PM
Here's a larger picture. Disregard the part of the drawing where it shows the slab coming all the way to the concrete core. I spoke with the EOR and he originally called out for removing the foam, but putting in a felt expansion strip. After discussing that the foam could be retained and used in place of the expansion strip, he was OK with that.


sailawayrbUser is Offline
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22 Apr 2020 09:22 PM
You don't cut the ICF blocks for the dowels at all...you just place the ICF block over the dowels... This is why it is important that the dowels are located so they will be in the center of the ICF block cavities. As I stated previously, the dowels only need to protrude from the footing into the ICF blocks about 24 inches...NOT 6 feet... The vertical rebar drops into the ICF block cavities from the top of the wall before the concrete pour. You don't need to pin the slab floor to the ICF wall...the slab should be allowed to float and just be poured within the ICF walls after they are poured. I am thinking that you had best get some ICF construction training if you will be doing this yourself.


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DilettanteUser is Offline
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22 Apr 2020 10:21 PM
Also, to help keep rebar properly spaced and placed, you can epoxy down small rings of PVC pipe around the dowels. 1-2" high. Then, when you feed the rebar down into the ICF form before the pour, you just aim for the ring.


rszimmUser is Offline
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23 Apr 2020 04:12 PM
I'm not sure you're understanding. I'm not talking about the dowels that go from the footing to the ICF walls. I'm talking about the horizontal dowels that go from the slab into the walls. Look at the picture. There's a callout for 1#4 x 6' at 48". That bar is going from the slab into the walls HORIZONTALLY.


rszimmUser is Offline
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23 Apr 2020 04:15 PM
I circled what I'm talking about in red:


arkie6User is Offline
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23 Apr 2020 05:13 PM
Another option is to pour the slab first before the ICF walls. That is what I did. It made for a great level working surface to stack the walls and made it much easier to place and finish the slab as there was easy access to the slab rather than having to work inside the ICF walls. I also used tapcons to secure the slab forms (2x4 vertical on edge attached to a 2x4 flat) to the footings. I used tapcons in the slab to secure my bracing after I started stacking the walls. In your case with the horizontal rebar dowels tieing the walls to the slab, you would have 1/2" wide x 2" deep slots through the forms every 4' to insert the long leg of the dowels into the slab with the hook extending into the core of the ICF wall. The 1/2" wide x 2" deep slot in the form at each rebar dowel would allow you to remove the form after the concrete is set. Then when you stack your ICF forms, you would just cut a slot or a larger hole (~4" x ~4") to slip it over the end of the rebar hook. The larger hole would allow a solid abutment between the wall and slab at each rebar dowel every 4' as the wall concrete flowed into the hole.

If you stick with setting the ICF forms first, you could cut a 4" x 4" hole in the forms every 4'. Now cut a piece of scrap plywood or OSB approximately 10" x 10" (assuming your ICF ties are on 8" centers) with a 5/8" hole where the long leg of the rebar dowel needs to sit. Slip this plywood scab over the end of the rebar, insert the rebar into the wall (it would be easy to insert a 6" rebar L hook through a 4x4 hole with a hooking motion), then screw the plywood scab to the ICF ties to hold the rebar and concrete in place. After the wall is set, unscrew the plywood scab and remove.


sailawayrbUser is Offline
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23 Apr 2020 06:13 PM
You are correct Rszimm, talking about dowels and ICF walls does lead one to think that this thread is about the footing dowels that extend into the ICF block. But like I mentioned previously, “you don't need to pin the slab floor to the ICF wall...the slab should be allowed to float and just be poured within the ICF walls after they are poured.” If I were you, I would ask your structural engineer about this detail and see if it can be eliminated. It also makes little sense to remove the EPS insulation on the interior wall side and connect your slab floor directly to the ICF concrete core. This will result in significant heat loss to what would otherwise be a very energy efficient building envelope.

Arkie, your pour the slab first approach has merit if the slab floor is NOT your finished floor (e.g.,, polished or stamped concrete). I suppose you could put the bracing to the exterior side and make it work too. However, I still prefer having the cold joint between the ICF wall and the footing be below the slab floor to reduce air leakage and possible moisture intrusion. Having that 2x4” concrete key in the footing or slab floor will mitigate that issue and is what we always do (i.e., key in footing). I think Smartwall’s approach of pouring the footing and the ICF wall at the same time is about as good as it gets once you have the confidence and skill to make it happen successfully.

And your approach for pinning the slab to the ICF wall avoids removing the interior EPS wall insulation. But again, I would ask the structural engineer about this detail and see if it can be modified in this way...or eliminated entirely.


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Baldwin2014User is Offline
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23 Apr 2020 06:22 PM
.


Baldwin2014User is Offline
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23 Apr 2020 06:22 PM
Careful about no dowel/connection needed between slab and wall. Not always the case.
The slab may not have been designed to be a free-floating slab.
In which case (in plain English) the slab resists sliding (home on a slope) or lateral forces (+/- on the footing/fnd wall)...
But I agree - check with the engineer.


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23 Apr 2020 06:46 PM
Yes, this detail absolutely needs to be confirmed by a licensed professional STRUCTURAL ENGINEER. We have seismic issues and we use #4 rebar 12" OC in our 5000 psi slabs that float on 12" of self-compacting pea gravel that floats on top of a rolled and leveled 3/4 minus rock engineered pad. Here's the detail on how we do it:

Attachment: ICF_Wall_Detail_.jpg

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smartwallUser is Offline
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23 Apr 2020 09:45 PM
Where did you get this drawing? Hopefully it's not from your engineer. In the 30 years I've been doing ICFs I've seen nothing like it. On this site 10 or 15 years ago , there was talk about compression of the foam when you back fill , but I've never seen the problem. To stop the footing from kicking in when back filling, just up the dowels in size. Plus the drawing is incomplete. Where is the mesh ? Since about 5 years ago we brace the outside of the wall. ICFs want to push out not in.


rszimmUser is Offline
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24 Apr 2020 05:02 AM
This drawing came from the Engineer. He wants the slab doweled to the walls.

Here's a video of someone else with dowels sticking out of the ICF for the slab. Now his conveniently fall at the joint between blocks. Mine ends up dead in the middle of a block. How do I get that sucker in there without tearing the whole block apart? Secondly, his are only about 2 feet long, so they don't really get in the way. Mine have to be a whole 6' long, so you can imagine what a pain that'll be for bracing and working in there.


smartwallUser is Offline
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24 Apr 2020 11:08 AM
Different set up.. The video shows a thickened edge slab using the icf as a insulated form for outside of the slab. They should be bracing from the outside. People get stuck doing things one way all the time. Perfect reason for my system. Brace outside. Pour the wall and then do the slab in one shot, one time. Saves a hell of a lot of time on site. One pump, one crew equals money in the bank. Are you building in a seismic zone?


rszimmUser is Offline
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25 Apr 2020 06:30 PM
OK, next quick question. Theres a call out for 2 #5s at the level of the slab. My slab ends up toward the bottom of the first block, so the rebar chair ends up about 6" higher than the slab.
I believe I've got three options:
1. Just put the 2 #5s in the first rebar chair and call it good (6" too high).
2. Tie the 2 #5s to the upside down rebar chair at the bottom adn then start my 16" OC horizontal courses on the top rebar chair all the way up (I end up with a couple more runs of horizontal rebar that way, and I have to deal with tying rebar to the undeside of the chair.
3. Saw the first block in half, so I start with a half block. Then the first rebar chair ends up even with my slab, but I'm not sure of the pitfalls of not having those nice nibs on the bottom of the first course???


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25 Apr 2020 11:07 PM
Option #4: Set the first horizontal row of rebar on independent plastic rebar chairs resting on the footing. These are typically 1.5" to 3.5" high. Set the plastic chairs every 4' to line up with your dowels into the slab and then wire tie the slab dowels to the horizontal row of rebar to hold everything in place during the pour.

Examples:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grip-Rite-2-1-4-in-Rebar-High-Chair-20-Piece-IHCP21420R/202090708

https://www.lowes.com/pd/4-33-in-x-4-33-in-x-2-83-in-Polypropylene-Rebar-Chairs/4070207



sailawayrbUser is Offline
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26 Apr 2020 02:52 PM
I would seek the design rational from this structural engineer and then perhaps get a second opinion from another structural engineer before just accepting and going forward with this design. This may be an unusual building design in some unique and challenging location that makes this design approach necessary, but without knowing the design rational, this design seems very strange.


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rszimmUser is Offline
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26 Apr 2020 04:22 PM
The slab is connected to the walls because the engineer is using the slab as an integral structural component to the restraining wall that holds back the 8' cut. Maybe it's unusual, but I have seen a bunch of videos where they do this. Here's another one where they are actually going to cut out the foam to connect the slab directly to the walls


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