Looking at what I can see out there, the ICF Connect joist hanger looks the best to me. I tried to find more info but it looks like the company has folded or been bought out by Nudura. I have not been able to find a retailer or pricing. I haven't tried contacting Nudura yet. What is the story? If they are no longer available, what is the best way to attach joists to an ICF wall without a ledger?

I switched to Watkins hangers about 7 years ago and really like them. Much better than the ICF Connect brackets. You are right Nudura bought what was left of the company. A new hanger that I haven't used but it looks like a winner is the Burmon hanger.

Thanks, I'm going to check those out.

The Watkins looks nice but I am not sure it would line up with the rebar in The Perfect Wall block. They look more expensive than ICF Connect too.

Those Burmon connectors with the J bolt look nice for mounting my roof joists.

I'm looking at that ledger connector now. I have one part of the building with a 9'8" span and two ledgers would bring that down to 9"5", then the joist hangers would bring that to 9' 2" which is good because I need to maximize my ceiling height there and want to use 12" on center 2x6 LVL floor joists. I calculated it at L/600 sag but that ledger might reduce the span enough to get to L/720. This will all be under a bedroom and my living area will have 11.75" or 14" I-joists so it should be pretty stiff where I'm going to do most of my walking.

I was thinking about my staircase last night and I think I am going to need a doubled up truss joist in one spot. That's a little expensive but at least I caught it and it isn't everywhere. On the good side, those open web trusses will be adjacent to my mechanical chase so I don't have to worry about cutting holes in I-joist webs as much.

Thanks for the help. I think my plan is still going with ICF Connect unless I find some reason why they won't work. The ledger idea might work in to the plans, we will see.

I hadn't considered my roof joist connection as much. I was thinking a wood top plate and then use stick build standard practice but that Burmon will let me eliminate some wood and hold those joists down really firmly. They are definitely on my short list for options there. So far I only had that rough idea for how to connect the roof joists but I hadn't looked at different options or costs. If they don't blow the budget somehow, I'm all for it.

We did floor trusses and recessed the ends into the concrete wall. The ends were wrapped in water proofing. Very little work or cost this way. I did drill each one and drive a piece of rebar through the end and into the wall they were sitting on to hold them firmly.

The joist hangers don't show up on there web site. I called the company and they sent me a pdf with the info. It's a really slick system. They have a hanger for joist as well as a hanger for rim joist. What you saw on their site was for the top of the wall connections. As I've posted here before, I don't use a top plate. I run my wall higher and hang my raised heel trusses inside of the wall at the top, not on top. You can run your blow in insulation against your wall, instead of on top of it. Plus it gives the top of your wall strength since each truss becomes a diaphragm. I was being polite about the ICF Connect brackets. They're not very good. The Simpson brackets are better and I won't use those. The Watkins are far superior to either of the other two. The Burmon holder looks like a step up. When I talked to the company they were in final testing. You can see them on one of the issues of ICF Builder on line magazine. That's where I first saw them. I'll check if I still have the pdf.

Check the Sept issue. Page 28 I think under new products. Or call the company. A very nice young lady will answer your questions

Thanks, I will check that out.

I will also consider your opinion on the ICF Connect.

My longest joist spans will be for roof joists and that's about 21' in most places with a few 25'. For the floor joists, there are 20' spans. I think it will be lightly stressed compared to some bigger buildings with clear span basements and stuff like that. Point being, I might be able to use less than ideal hangers and the main reason why I was looking at ICF Connect is that I don't think the other options will line up with the rebar in The Perfect Block.

We shall see. Hopefully that Burmon is exactly what I'm looking for.

That Burmon joist hanger looks interesting, I would have to see the dimensions to make sure both of the projections would tie in to the concrete screen grid.

The buck brace looks like it might be something I need, not only for windows but that could be my staple to hold the Fab Form feet for a mono-pour.

Thanks a lot.

I have a question. You said that the other options wouldn't line up with the rebar? Your right , the buck brace is an ideal product. Saves a lot of time bracing inside the buck with lumber. One trick that I have used with the Fab Form footing product, and I gave this to the boys there, is to attach the fabric with a coil roof nailer instead of the screws and washers. Much quicker and stronger. Not sure if your product will hold a nail, but it's worth a call to the manufacturer.

It's a screen wall system so instead of a solid sheet of concrete in the ICF, it's a grid with 1' hole spacing. Anywhere I want a joist hanger has to fall on a vertical or horizontal part of the grid and then there is not a choice of notches to place the rebar in to, it's just different. If my joist hanger falls on a hole, it will not tie in to the concrete at all.

I really need to get it in to my hands or have really good dimensions.

The thing about ICF Connect is that all I need to do is get the plates to go in to the grid and then the concrete would tie them up. Anything that involves the rebar is going to be questioned by inspectors if it makes me put the rebar in a different place than the block specs.

I guess I could use the buck brace product for it's intended use, I was thinking of using it like a "staple" with the legs pointing up and attaching the Fab Form feet to them. I'm not too worried about door and window bucks, I'll have four steel door frames that I want cast in place, the garage door openings shouldn't be too critical of dimensions and then 7 windows. I'll make some window bucks with 2x4 and plywood to make them accurate and square. The garage door bucks might be good for the buck brace. I'll have some more bracing to do but it is weird stuff like angled wall, probably not applicable to the buck brace.

For the fabric, I'm thinking about shooting deck screws all the way through the bottom block so the steel fastener is taking all of the spreading stress. It shouldn't take long if I pre-drill the blocks while I am adding the feet and buck brace. I could pre-drill the wood that attaches the fabric too, just a bit oversize and use washers. If I slow down a little bit, there is a lot of stuff I can do ahead of time like making drill guides so that I can get stuff done quicker once the materials are on site. If this slowed the actual brick stacking, it would only be by an hour or two to poke holes in the footing fabric instead of just shooting a nail. Attaching the feet will be the slowdown...

I looked at the PB website and I see it is a waffle grid form. My biggest question I have is the weight of the system and the use of grout to fill the footing as well as the wall. At 30 lbs per block, my system isn't designed to hold that much weight. For a 1600 sq ft wall system you need to support 12000 lbs versus 1800 pounds for the same wall system done with a standard icf block. Before you get too far into details I would email or call the Fearns at Fab Form and tell them what your trying to do. I've have a sample of the bracket from their system and it has one feature that may help you. The attachment bracket has a tab that helps to hold the block up. Bracing is a must for either system. Good luck with your project.

Actually it is screen grid. Waffle grid is similar but not the same.

I agree, the block weight is the concern, that is why I would double up the feet. Let's say I have 15,000 lb of block to hold up and I have 120 feet, that's 125 lb each foot and some parts are heavier than others, call it 300 lbs max per foot. If it's a 1/2" thread that's not too bad and I could put more feet in the heavier wall sections.

I think the feet are really over built for their normal load unless it's built for the concrete load in which case my ICCF is going to weigh less after it is filled because the screen uses less concrete. I am glad that Fab Form did that. It might not make a lot of sense to overbuild it but if it lets it work for me, I'm OK with it.

If the weight is too much to deal with, my plan turn in to two pour days with the first going as high as the feet allow and the next going to the top. If I can't top out with that second pour, my worst case is to go typical with footing and then two wall pours.

I really don't think your plan is sound....I worry about these Fab Form feet moving, flexing, not holding the wall solid, something giving way during the pour....in which everything can be lost.

I would do three pours, footings, first floor, and then second floor. It is going to be hard to stack, secure/brace, rebar, and pour at a 2 story height.

I really don't think you are gaining anything doing it this way, you will loose many days trying to get the footing thing to work and be level, stacking and rebar 2 and a half stories in the air is time consuming.

The only thing to gain in your plan is one day of pumping concrete cost.

And I think you said this is your first job....people doing this for years don't do it this way. Many people wont even pour screen grid because they claim it is too hard to get the concrete to consolidate. Then how are you going to vibrate at a 2 story height through screen grid forms.

My last house I did screen grid on the upper floor and found one large void and some smaller when doing electrical. I seriously do wish you luck and pray everything works for you.

If there is an ICF thermal mass effect that can be taken advantage of (i.e., a location with a diurnal climate having temp swings through your desired interior temp), a screen or waffle grid system will be far less effective than the standard 6" concrete core.

The typical The Perfect Block installation has blocks laid out and bonded with foam adhesive before the pour. I intend to do that and also back it up with mend plates on the inside of at least the first two courses to lock the block together mechanically before the pour. I intend to invest in a laser so I can check each course for level as they are laid.

For vibrating the concrete, I could run standard vertical rebar at the 24" spacing and put a smaller rebar between them to fill every column and then use a rebar shaker at the top of the wall for vibration.

The typical pour also has holes drilled in the wall at the height of each lift which are patched with foam adhesive between lifts. You don't have to try to fill the bottom by pouring from the very top.

To be clear, I would be doing lifts of about 4 feet each, I would just have my block fully stacked before the pour and try to top out in one day. It's a small project by many standards, I think it's about 30 yards of concrete including the footing, walls and slab. That's about four truck loads.

Just be sure to vibrate properly and to complete the entire wall pour without creating any cold joints or voids. Cold joints and voids greatly reduce the structural strength of the wall. We have NOT found rebar vibrators to be effective...and we would recommend you use a conventional vibrator. Every ICF manufacturer that we have used has an estimate spreadsheet or calculator to figure out exactly how much block, rebar and concrete is needed accounting for all the door/window openings.

The idea of a mono-pour is to avoid cold joints but also with the fast foot system, you can see the footing fill in below the wall which is a good indication that the first lift doesn't have any voids. I will also have enough window and door opening bucks to check my fill as I go. I only have about 130' of exterior wall length and about 50' of interior. If I go around the perimeter filling 4-5' lifts at a time, I think I should be able to get all the way around and actually have to wait a bit between lifts to avoid blowout. The only thing that would screw up that part of the plan is a late concrete truck in the middle of the pour.

The Perfect Block has a concrete volume for each style of block they sell. I am designing down to partial blocks with angle cuts so I will be able to calculate a close to exact concrete volume required with the window and door bucks being a minor variable, my slab depth is probably the biggest variable in the actual amount required but I'm expecting the actual amount of concrete in the trucks will be the biggest variable I'm dealing with. I will try to have a small outbuilding slab to pour as excess so I can make something useful.

One other thing that I like about the fast foot system is that it creates a moisture barrier under the footing to prevent capillary water going up the concrete in the ICCF. My slab will have a moisture barrier under it also. This together with a French drain and the fact that I am building in a desert should keep the structure dry from ground water. It might not be a big deal but it might pay off in 2220.

If you pour with the proper ICF slump, there isn’t any waiting at all and there isn’t any risk of blow out either if you know what you are doing. The pour is over in less than two hours and if you are doing the vibrating properly, you won’t feel your arms for two hours after the pour either…

Calculating the precise volume of required concrete should be trivial and any reputable company will bring that amount plus about 1% extra. You do need to schedule the concrete truck deliveries precisely and any reputable company will make that happen.

I think mine is more complicated because it's a two story and from the slab to the top of the tallest wall it is going to be about 23'. I don't think I can pour concrete that tall in 2 hours. The block instructions call for lifts of 4-5' and I am sure there is some minimum amount of time between lifts. I hope I will be waiting because if I'm not going as fast as the block will allow, I'm at risk of going too slow and making poor joints between lifts.

I really need to work a concrete pour and run a vibrator just to see what works for me.

I would hope that a reputable company would be able to get the amounts right and it seems like many do. On the other hand I saw a video of one ICF pour where the concrete truck got lost and the driver gave up looking and went back, then the next truck was very late. To make it worse the aggregate in the mix was not what was ordered and the truck was not carrying as much concrete as ordered so the contractor was lucky that he had ordered a couple yards extra because he just barely filled the forms. That is a nightmare scenario and having a question mark on what the mix actually was is very bad. In a screen grid an incorrect mix could probably ruin the job if it won't flow through the blocks properly. Any way, I need to make sure that I am working with professionals that will be on the ball for me even though I'm only going to have 4-5 truck loads of concrete.