which ICF blocks are the best?
Last Post 10 Jul 2013 09:30 PM by Hargscarpentry. 23 Replies.
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JellyUser is Offline
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05 Nov 2007 11:21 AM
A forum like this is a treasure of information for us rookies. What other way could we so quickly gain such in-depth knowledge from direct contact with people in the know?

I know many of you are professionals, and you have good reasons why you may not want to promote one block over another. But it would be a great help if you could discuss what properties about a block in general make it necessary to require 2 x 4's for corner bracing for example, or better yet what properties make a block superior by not requiring such bracing systems. Or what is it about certain systems that make you trust them more than others. Does it matter to you if there are webs every 6 inches or is every 8 inches enough? And so on...

I've visited a lot of the ICF manufacturer's websites, and while you can get a lot of information there, it is of course all one-sided ("our forms are the best!"). So if you don't mind saying "Brand-X is better because of this" then that's great. But if you don't like rating them like that by name, then you could just speak in general terms of the best qualities and so forth.
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05 Nov 2007 11:33 AM
Some brands are great but support does not exist. Support is vital for n00bs.

Things to look for in a block: denser foam, thicker foam, stronger webbing, higher recycled content. You can get objective numbers for each of these if you try. If you don't like research you will end up with an inferior choice, but can still assess using 'racking'. Stand the block on a corner and press on it from the top corner. If it distorts more than an inch with light pressure, it's cheep.

I'd mentioned a few trustworthy brands in your other thread. To boil it down, AFAIC Amvic has the best support (altho this varies wildly by region) and second-best block, and Logix has the best block (thickest, best webbing). Having experience I'd build my house with Logix.

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05 Nov 2007 03:49 PM
Jelly:
We're glad you asked.

All blocks are not equal, no more than all vehicles are equal. Model A Fords were nice in their day, but I'm not interested in going over the Bighorns in one today. Nope, give me a cummins diesel or duramax any day.

Just so, many forms are antiquated and should indeed be put on the museum shelf, just like 5 pound cell phones and 8-tracks.

Having said this, I believe that quality support and bracing is paramount for a do-it-yourselfer, and great quality finished product CAN be achieved with many different forms. But often not in a cost effective manner which would encourage repeat sales and a catapult of the ICF industry which is a goal of our company.

In our opinion, three manufacturers forms will achieve maximum success with lower labor, shipping, waste and ancillary material costs.

A six inch on center web spacing fixed form is most user friendly all around.
So hurrah for Buildblock, Amvic, Reward, Greenblock, Superform
But onlyl Amvic, Reward, Buildblock are reversible, a value added feature for labor and material savings. We offer our best installation prices to install projects with these forms.

About every 8 inch on center system propogates the use of "in-wall bracing" also called Form-loc. This product is priced locally for $9.39 per 10 ft. section. Typically three courses of form loc is used per pour. Nudura, Arxx, Logix, and many other 8 inch web systems have added costs because it takes more money in material and labor to gain perfect finished product. Knock down, fold flat forms equal forms that will hinge and cause more problems during concrete placement and more bracing requirements.

Consolidation is always an issue. Webs that allow stacking of rebar at splices without the need for wire ties to accomplish a code approved lap splice are a great addition when stacking block. Amvic, Reward, Buildblock have these features. Nudura, Arxx, Logix, Polysteel, etc. do not. Form loc has a tendeny to hang up concrete, and unfortunately, many distributors still sell forms but not provide vibrators...

Cost of other trades also affects our decisions; If your subs want to charge great gobs more money because you're using "them foam block" either you are using the wrong form or training them inmproperly.
ie.
I have a drywalller who charges extra to tape walls with 8 inch on center ties. He says that their is slight bulging between webs which cause him to have to spot nails an extra time to get a slick finish.
Ties must be 1.5 inches wide.
Corners must have excellent attachment points for all finishes.
Electricians should be able to run horizontally at joints in the forms without having to fight with continuous ties.

Some quirky things we like are a self draining interlock (buildblock, reward) so moisture doesn't freeze in the interlocks and pieces of foam, concrete aren't lodged in cavities.
Many concrete cavities (ie. Arxx) are wider than they need to be. Versus Buildblock, Arxx uses much more concrete in the same sq. footage of wall. Why spend the extra money if it's not needed?

Last year a distributor (sales based) visited us, asking if we would install their product, Polysteel. Our answer was no. They asked why not, and long story short, the distributor switched to Amvic and has quadrupled its market share in less than a year. For a distributor, it is the REPEAT sale which generates the real income.

For those of you who disagree and get mad, send me an email on your commodore 64, or maybe just a message on the pony express.

For years I didn't know better, never knew better ICF options were available to get straighter walls faster. Now I know, and it's my belief that when we know better, we should do better. That is my motivation for this possibly inflamatory post.

Kevin


And still to date we've been a labor only company.
QuantumUser is Offline
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05 Nov 2007 04:10 PM
Not inflammatory. Fairly honest, I'd say.

But when you say:
"[i]Consolidation is always an issue. Webs that allow stacking of rebar at splices without the need for wire ties to accomplish a code approved lap splice are a great addition when stacking block. Amvic, Reward, Buildblock have these features. Nudura, Arxx, Logix, Polysteel, etc. do not.[/i]"

... actually Logix does accommodate overlap joints without wire-ties. Admittedly Logix is not reversible, and this is where Amvic excels, but Logix is about to release forms with [i]removable[/i] webbing, allowing placement of complex rebar bends, easier arch construction, etc. And yet they fit so well that they pass my racking test.

I don't see alot of difference in using 8" vs 6" webbing, except that 6" is incompatible with any systems that rely on the traditional 16" joist. Plus 6" is harder to space rebar according to seismic standards in HUD's Prescriptive Method.

Amvic has alot of surface-area in the interlocks so they are less likely to pull apart, plus they are reversible so less waste, but nothing can beat thicker foam AFAIC, all else being equal. Long-term is more important. Furthermore, I think form-loc is a good idea no matter what blocks you use, assuming it fits snugly.
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07 Nov 2007 02:58 PM
It's great to hear the honest responses. I guess the choice is also going to depend on which block manufacturer has a distributor nearby who can put a bit of time in to the project, too.

Looks like BuildBlock has some great corner blocks.

Does anyone have any experience with Fox Blocks in regards to the already mentioned qualities?
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07 Nov 2007 03:21 PM
In my opinion Any ICF is better than conventional stick framing. Do your research and with the design of the structure you want to build & find the best suited for your needs, if you are building in a area with high traffic or near an airport Check the STC rating. If your design has radius curves there are ICFs to accommodate that. Check R Value, where they are Manufactured, Post & beam or solid infill, Blower door test, ease of finishes,interior & exterior. Fire rating, Possibly speak to certified installers, a lot of installers have hands on experience with a variety of different forms. Any ICF manufacturer should have projects, finished or under construction that you could see tour, etc.
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07 Nov 2007 10:24 PM
Quantum:
Unless the webs have very recently been adapted, Logix has rebar fingers only a half inch deep, therefore when using a contact splice, wire ties must be used. Use a non contact lap splice if you wish, but when placing bar side by side, you must have 1.5 inches between the bar. So pour and consolidate even more carefully! Side by side bar hangs up concrete and should be avoided when possible.

6" web spacing is in fact far better all around. I know, because all we USED to use were 8 inch on center systems. We worked just as hard, but struggled more. The "16 inch traditional" mumbo jumbo makes me laugh, that's really all the 8 inch web manufacturers have to defend themselves with.
One of the biggest advantages of six inch webs is that next to openings, one will never have more than 4 unsupported "foam bars", which will support concrete and careful vibration without ANY scabbing/strapping/taping/zipties. Only glue between the buck and foam block. An eight inch system may have up to 6 unsupported foam bars (inches) and extra support is usually needed. Go ahead and pay for the extra material, the labor to install and remove the extra bracing if you wish.
Now T-walls. I don't advocate the need for a T block. They are frilly and uneccessary. T blocks come in pairs, shorts and longs. And they come by the bundle. So more pieces to inventory, order, and lay out. Then get on the job, and cut each wall section at each side of a T-wall. Three cuts per T. More waste, more time.....
We use six inch center web forms and cut a six inch concrete cavity for six inch core, eight inch concrete cavity for eight inch core. Maximum ONE web is lost, leaving 12 inches maximum unsupported foam. No exterior bracing is needed on the outside of the T when braced correctly inside. No waste, the intersecting wall can be plumbed independantly, usefull especially when the slab has a roll in it...
Need a taper top? Mitre it on a 10" table saw. No frills if we want to make an industry of it, else it will just be a long term niche market.
Watch out for some of the forms which have less than 1 1/2 web width, they make sheetrockers, siders sad.

Jelly, you are right about great local support, which is paramount for the do it yourselfer. I say if you must, pay more for block to get bracing, support and quality ancillary products. Get your project above grade ASAP! A direct sale manufacturer might not be saving you any money....
We just tend to be more picky, because a penny saved in labor is a penny earned, as stacking block is what we do. It was a tough decision to quit hanging on the manufacturers legs "begging" for leads, probably the paramount problem why ICF growth is not even stronger. Carpenters are afraid to be honest about what blocks they like, because then they get blackballed by the manufacturers. Wonder if that's why none of the 8 inch web systems send us work anymore????? But we haven't had to stand around in the manufacturers home show booths selling their product for them either.....
Look at the interlock to Fox Blocks. They don't interlock often enough, and therefore are not exactly waste friendly. 8 inch web spacing. I've heard support can be a problem. But one can get a good finished product if you are willing to put the time into it. And that Model A ford might get over the Bighorns if I bring my tool set....
I'd rather bring a cooler and fishing rod.
Buildblock, Amvic, Reward. They all have great products, great availability, support, code approvals, distributor networks. They are the "greenest" because mathematically, they will generate less waste. Three "great" choices is plenty. Why pay and do more with a "good" choice?

Kevin

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08 Nov 2007 01:47 AM
Hi folks,

Like Jelly, I'm newer to this whole side of green construction but am intrigued to learn more. I have an upcoming smaller project and would like to experiment with an ICF for possible future on something larger down the road.  I'll admit, I just did a quick search through this thread instead of reading it entirely. That said, I saw no mention of non-foam ICFs mentioned here. I'm thinking of Durisol, Faswall, and Rastra off the top of my head.

What are people's experience with these products (non-foam, wood-based) versus foam block forms?

Thanks



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08 Nov 2007 08:34 PM
Good input irnivek, thanks.

Lego, those concretious blocks are going away now. Manufacturing must be very close to the build site, or big shipping costs. Also the insulative value is far inferior to ICF, being almost zero.
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08 Nov 2007 09:54 PM
Posted By Quantum on 11/08/2007 8:34 PM
Good input irnivek, thanks.

Lego, those concretious blocks are going away now. Manufacturing must be very close to the build site, or big shipping costs. Also the insulative value is far inferior to ICF, being almost zero.[/quote]



I have been looking at these guys LINK. They are growing and have a very nice R52 block with a 4hr fire rating. I'm not sure how widely available there block is.

Tony
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16 Nov 2007 09:52 AM
Nowhere in this thread is any mention of EcoBlock. I was under the impression that they were one of the largest manufactures. Are they really that inferior? The local 84 Lumber stocks these blocks.
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16 Nov 2007 10:09 PM
EcoBlock is a perfectly fine block. As has been stated in the previous posts. Support and product availabilty is most important. After all, it is all just foam and plastic or steel. Research your area and see who is doing what and by all means ask for references and visit current jobsites. Lot's of companies will inflate their expertise. Nothing beats doing your due dilligence!
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16 Nov 2007 11:09 PM
Concretewalls: correction,
Eco block HAS been a perfectly fine block. But it is now rather dusty, in fact also sitting on the museum shelf. Many the contractor breathes easier not wondering if a plastic tie was snapped together properly and will blow apart during concrete placement in cold weather. Many a carpenter is elated that they aren't putting blocks together in the mud on a jobsite. Many an icf installer more productive and profitable who has moved on to better products.


Kevin
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16 Nov 2007 11:22 PM
May be your experience irnivek, but I know many installers who are doing just fine with EcoBlock. BTW I am not associated with EcoBlock. It's all what your comfortable with. I have witnessed installers do poorly with the "new" generation of ICF. It's all about attention to detail.
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16 Nov 2007 11:34 PM
My point exactly! ICF is actually about problem solving, thinking outside the box, in fact often doing what you are NOT initially comfortable with, to achieve even better results.
The reason the building industry is in shambles (see Consumer Reports Jan. 2004 "housewrecked") is because builders and consumers alike continue to underachieve according to what they are "comforable with"

And yes, poor results can be achieved with great products. But if many of the characteristic historical shortfalls of ICF-expensive, curvy, slow walls-are solved simply by newer best products, with international availability and great pricing, hooray for everyone.

Kevin
Kevin
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16 Nov 2007 11:42 PM

I agree!  The only thing that will save this industry is innovation!  Having been in the ICF industry for 8 years, I have seen alot!  I like the way things are going now! 

 

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21 Nov 2007 12:31 AM
There is no forum for modular dry stack concrete block building systems but there are several producers in the USA.

 I have built with DAC-ART and photo-journaled the process online. That was four years ago. The eye of Hurricane Ivan went over my house and I had no damage. I had 3 other people's homes, broken into a thousand pieces in my yard tho. (Photos online on my site)  Now I am building the main residence on the same lot and of course I am using the same DAC-ART Building System.

This time the website is LINK to watch the progress. I have photos of some other dry stack concrete block projects on that site too.

I really wouldn't consider anything else. I don't think you can beat it for beauty, strength, and no maintenance.

I am taking evey precaution to use eco-friendly products that can all stand up to a good drenching. I am leaning towards the new imported magnesium oxide wall boards and have been researching that product.

People always ask if building with huge dry stack blcoks is mor expensive and the answer is initially yes....but then, you can do things archtiecturally that you just can't do with stick or ICF construction...so it is hard to compare costs. It is not apples ot apples.

Anyway, when trying to decide which ICF system is best, don't limit yourself and don't rule out concrete  [b]dry stack building systems. [/b]
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21 Nov 2007 05:25 AM
Posted By ConcreteCottage on 11/21/2007 12:31 AM

Anyway, when trying to decide which ICF system is best, don't limit yourself and don't rule out concrete  [b]dry stack building systems. [/b]

Hi ConcreteCottage,

I long ago read through your DAC-ART projects and they look great. In concept it's not much different than the method I originally planned on (dry stacked interlocking fully-grouted concrete masonry units with insulation inserts, like Azar or Haener systems). The size and appearance of course are different. DAC-ART gets you away from the "concrete block" look.

What brought me to ICF though is the insulation question. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DAC-ART also uses the insulation inserts inside the blocks. But my research suggests that this insulation method is almost totally ineffective due to the thermal transfer through the concrete webs of the blocks.

My question to you is what has your experience been regarding the effectiveness of the insulation system? I'm sure you'll say your air conditioning costs are a fraction of what you would pay on a stick framed house. And if that's true then either the insulation inserts really do work, or the thermal mass of the thick concrete walls is enough to do the job on it's own.

I haven't found much love for dry-stack systems here in the ICF forum. But I still think they have their merits and it's still an option for me. So I'm very curious what your energy experience has been.
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21 Nov 2007 08:31 AM
Can't use dry-stack building systems in seismic areas.
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21 Nov 2007 09:45 AM
Posted By Quantum on 11/21/2007 8:31 AM
Can't use dry-stack building systems in seismic areas.

Obviously you know more about seismic areas than I do, but Haener was developed in San Diego, and Los Angeles is it's bigget market.
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21 Nov 2007 09:57 PM
Thanks everyone for your questions/ comments.

There is a whole DAC-ART complex going up in the wine country of Calif. I have a few photos...all the engineering was done and the photos I have show the details of the reinforcement going into the columns on one of the structures. The complex is a system of main house and individual guest facilities, sorta like the real country villa concept a la Spain / Italy. I will make a point of adding those photos w/ a link of the home page of link tomorrow. Also there are two other private residences going up in Calif using DAC-ART..and all the earthquake engineering has been done by Calif. engineers.

Since the blocks can easily be made to any thickness, that facilitates adding extra reinforcement for earthquake and also extra insulation where needed. The manufacturer says he can make ANY R-VALUE the customer requests. He can make them 15" thick w/ 4 " of foam insulation, 20" thick, etc...mine are just 12 " thick w/ 2 " of interior foam insulation. And yes, there are parts of the block that end up sitting directly on the concrete parts of the block below them, but w/ the newer designed blocks , that is a small % of the surface area. There is the thickness of the block (+ or - 3") at the ends that is solid concrete. But the new blocks are very long, not small 30' individual blcoks like my Phase I house was built from. Most of my blocks now are 60+". So that is more hollow space that has the double walled insulation and less % that is solid ends. It also saved $ on setting blocks.

I am building now w/ somewhat older blocks that were poured for a different house. I got them at a discount. That is why I am using them, plus there is a waitng list, so I am happy to have blocks on hand so we can build now. Even my blocks we are building with now have the new bottom style w/ a totally open bottom, and tapered side walls, so I have no solid concrete sitting on another block w/out insulation except a little bit at each end of the 60" block.

I live in a mild climate. My uitilty bills run at max $150 a month in Phase I, off season (spring & fall) is about $45. But we have only elecrtic available for hot water on my stretch of the road (I didn't want to do the burried in ground propane tank and sure don't want to look at one at this narrow lot waterfront location).

So my electric includes HVAC , hot water, electric clothes washer, dryer, dishwasher, 3 computers, flat screen monitors, XM radio running almost 24/7, hairdryers, hotcurlers, electric toothbrush, rechargable stuff like dustbuster, weed wacker,  razor,  flashlight,  phones,  ans. machine, etc...and tons of light at night as I do artwork and don't scrimp on light. My porch lights have 12 bulbs so I have 12 opportunities to replace bulbs B4 I am in total darkness.

The inside of my house is so quiet that I cannot hear anyone approach on my gravel drive unless I open a window to listen for their arrival (If I know they're comin' ) There is only one bird who's call I can hear thru the walls. That is the awesone Osprey....a little smaller than the American Bald Eagle. I have one that hangs out in a dead tree near me. We are sorta frinds now. I go out and whistle to him and he lets me come really close and photo him.
linkIf any other Osprey stops there on that tree to eat a fish, etc... and I hear them and go out to greet him (her) they fly off immediately, so I know it was not 'MY' Osprey, since my Osprey is not afraid of me....but I digress. Point is, Ospreys are *very* loud.
I know that soundproofness does not equate to temp insulation, but just thought I'd mention it.

I just came back from a dinner out, so I have forgotten the other questions since I stared typing a couple hours ago. Will have to post this and then go back and re-read the comments. Not trying to dodge questions :o)

PS--I dont know what that SnapShots code is below, it doesnt show up in the edit view.

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22 Nov 2007 09:40 AM
I received an email:

Concrete cottage;

 

Hate to be a "doubting Thomas", but do you have any pictures of the waterline halfway up the floor to ceiling?

That would mean the windows were at least 4ft. below water?

It's hard to believe that with the storm surge and hydraulic pressure exerted upon the windows , that your house was a reverse aquarium.

It would mean that ; not only were the windows water proof, but the attachment to the structure was waterproof as well.




I was shocked too. It was a week before we could get down our street and come back to the house. By then the 1/2 " of water had evaporated. There was dried sludge coverering the floor . The water that did get in was  the whole 'soup'  of sewage, etc..from the ripped open dryer vent, so it dried looking like Chewbaca fur of pine needle fragments all  arranged in an aligned pattern  leading to behind the dryer. That is how I quickly figured out what had happened.  There was a 'high water mark' in the inside , really easy to see on our painted white wood paneled  bathroom walls.


On the outside, pine needles and debris were packed into the rubber gasketing at the exact same level across the southern windows about half way up, which corresponds exactly w/ the level of debris deposits in the yard. Look at the photos on this page, notice the place in the yard where the final floating junk was left by receeding water. Our yard slopes the entire length towards the water. It is 400 ft long. (100 ft wide). The boats and floating stuff like coolers were mostly left way up near the street, which if you sight that w/ survey equipment, is about half way up the southern windows on first house. See the photos near bottom of page on link below that show the untouched depris deposits.

There were no 'attachments to the structure' except what I describe below. And note: the shutters were ripped from south wall, see in photos in link below.

Our AC compressor unit was on a DAC-ART pedestal about 4 ft high, I saw it later in the trashed vegetation in the vacant lot next door. It had been strapped down with criss crossing metal straps screwed w/ stainess screws into stainless posts embedded into the top of the DAC-ART base . Base remained unharmed, A/C was history, as was all electric service that had been running in conduit strapped to back of house blocks going up from panel locatred next to A/C unit and into an opening up near the cornice. Copper A/C lines ran up , strapped to the wall as well. All that was totally ripped from the wall. Took over a month to get electricians out to re-build it and then get the inspectors out to re-inspect before they'd turn power back on. As you can imagine, there was a big demand for inspection and for electricians too.

Anyway, back to lot slope, in the larger house I am building now, the steps that will come down in two directions located on the east face of the house (steps foundation is poured, steps not built yet, photos on ConcreteCottage.com) when we measured for footing last week, it was determined that there would be two more steps on the south side than on the steps that go down towards the north due to the slope. If you extend that slope from my water line on outside of south facing windows up to the high water mare at the street side of the lot where all the boats, floating stuff was deposited, you can see that the water was indeed half way up my windows and my house, & was, as you stated, a reverse aquarium. This is main reason I am going w/ Weathershield brand again on new house. I had a fabulous offer from Vetter, but no matter. I have faith in Weathershield. (Vetter is now owned by Weathershield, curiously, they bought them).

AND, compare the new height requirements w/ the old....my new structure has first living floor ABOVE the height of the high water level of IVAN, which was half way up the windows in original structure ....

link
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22 Nov 2007 02:17 PM
A quick reply to this question as I am about to have T'giving dinner with my daughter but I will write a full forum response later. So stay tuned. I am a veteran of the industry and my qualifications come from a degree and background in architecture, general contracting (24th year) as well as 13 years in the ICF industry as a specifier, supplier, consumer, installer, distributor and now as a manufacturing consultant, conference speaker and writer.

Build Block ICF's are the best pre-assembled panel on the market for many reasons. Integra Spec is the best knock down panel by far for wide wall applications. Most of you will never need the wide wall requirements unless your building commercial or in the mountains.

I will explain more on these verified responses later
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10 Jul 2013 09:30 PM
We have built with several different blocks, logix. Nudura. Greenblock. Superform. We seemed to have the worst luck with logix. Nudura has a lot of advantages, 8' blocks mean less cuts, 8" webs mean more bracing. We found the webs didn't go close enough to top and bottom of block, creating a slight bulge t horizontal joints. Tying rebar steels time. Greenblock is. Durable block with 1" cut lines. Very nice block to work with. Have to tie rebar splices though. Superform is the strongest and thickest block, 12". Webs are deeper, which allow two bars to be snapped in on top of each other. Red webs make the cavity brighter when pouring.


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