Posted By Lbear on 27 Nov 2011 12:49 PM
Why would you need moisture resistant sheetrock by the window? Do ICF window designs leak?

Posted By Lbear on 27 Nov 2011 09:59 PM
The above links are no good...

3. For the inside window ledge, I plan on using ceramic tile with a bullnose inside edge.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 27 Nov 2011 10:05 PM

3. For the inside window ledge, I plan on using ceramic tile with a bullnose inside edge.

I've seen people use granite which looks really good there, too. Granite in window ledge sizes is often waste and can be had very cheaply.

Posted By Lbear on 27 Nov 2011 03:58 PM

I still wish there was some sample pictures that can be shown on how the interior window is finished architecturally. How the window sill looks, do they drywall it or put a wood sill plate?

Posted By Lbear on 27 Nov 2011 03:58 PM
Which brings me to the next question. How does one run security alarm wiring to the windows? In a wood frame home, they would be run behind the drywall, in between the studs, and then brought to the window sill where the magnets can be placed.

I still wish there was some sample pictures that can be shown on how the interior window is finished architecturally. How the window sill looks, do they drywall it or put a wood sill plate?

Posted By Clark on 02 Dec 2011 06:27 PM


Second is a set of casements with rolling shutters.  The windows are recessed on both the interior and exterior.   The rolling shutters are stored within the ICF wall and accessible through the panels shown at the top of the windows.  Note that the shutters are controlled by cranks and are deployed (down) in this image.




When the rolliing shuttles are retracted (up) all the way, they are not visible on the exterior of the building.

--Clark

Posted By Lbear on 03 Dec 2011 03:45 AM

In regards to the shutters, how are they installed within the ICF wall? They would have to be installed on the OUTSIDE of the ICF wall in order to cover the exterior side of the window, correct? How then are they accessed from the INSIDE of the wall? I am confused.


Are the shutters mainly for privacy or do you live in a tornado or hurricane zone? Have you had any problems with them (binding, falling off tracks)?

That's the nice thing about the 12.5" thick ICF walls -- they are thick enough to contain the takeup box and mechanism of the rolling shutter, completely hiding the shutter from view until it is rolled down over the window.  Maybe these pictures will help explain how they were installed.




You have to plan for the installation of the rolling shutter when building the ICF forms.  The window bucks need to be high enough to accommodate the shutter takeup reel enclosure.  I opted for the interior crank to raise and lower the shutter.  A motorized shutter option is also available.


The rolling shutters provide complete control over the brutal sunlight entering the window later in the afternoon.   They also provide security, privacy, storm protection and reduced heat loss in the winter.  The windows stay cleaner, as well, during summer rains if the shutters are rolled down.  These shutters are well made and work reliably.  No regrets on incorporating them into the house design.

--Clark

Posted By Lbear on 03 Dec 2011 04:49 PM

THANKS for all the info! With the design setup you have done, by placing the shutter assembly on the inside of the home, how much heat/cooling loss do you experience from that area? Being the shutter reel assembly occupies a space that would have been EPS & 6"+ of concrete. You can't really add cellulose up there, so it looks like a potential spot for a lot of energy loss. What kind of ICF did you use? You mentioned that the walls are 12.5" thick. Are you including the thickness of the siding? What shutter brand did you use?

Posted By Clark on 03 Dec 2011 08:00 PM

I was able to insulate the area above the window where the rolling shutter reel is located.  The rolling shutter box was 7" deep, so I was able to put 2" of rigid foam behind the interior access trim panel.  Keep in mind that the energy loss through the triple glass windows is substantial compared to the ICF walls (R3 vs R22), so the R14 of rigid foam insulation over the roll shutter box represents only a small additional heat loss.  That heat loss is more than compensated for by the lower heat loss at night with the window glass shielded from the wind by the insulated roll shutter.  Heat gain from sun in the summer is almost completely stopped when the shutter is down.  There are perforations in the couplings between the individual slats which allow some light to enter the room if the shutters are not allowed to fully mate when the shutter is deployed.

I used TF System vertical ICF, but my approach to installing rolling shutters can be used with any ICF product provided the overall thickness of the wall, including the EPS is sufficient.  My ICF walls on the main floor are 10.5" thick (5.5" of concrete with 2.5" of EPS on each side).  I mistakenly said 12.5" thick earlier, but that was the thickness of the foundation walls, not the above grade walls.  Interior and exterior finishing is not included in this wall thickness dimension.  I covered the ICF with 1/2" gypsum board on the inside and Hardie board lap siding on the outside.

The brand of roll shutters I purchased was Rollac Rolling Shutters.  They are made of extruded aluminum with a foam insulation core.

Posted By Lbear on 04 Dec 2011 02:40 AM

Posted By Clark on 03 Dec 2011 08:00 PM

I was able to insulate the area above the window where the rolling shutter reel is located.  The rolling shutter box was 7" deep, so I was able to put 2" of rigid foam behind the interior access trim panel.  Keep in mind that the energy loss through the triple glass windows is substantial compared to the ICF walls (R3 vs R22), so the R14 of rigid foam insulation over the roll shutter box represents only a small additional heat loss.  That heat loss is more than compensated for by the lower heat loss at night with the window glass shielded from the wind by the insulated roll shutter.  Heat gain from sun in the summer is almost completely stopped when the shutter is down.  There are perforations in the couplings between the individual slats which allow some light to enter the room if the shutters are not allowed to fully mate when the shutter is deployed.

I used TF System vertical ICF, but my approach to installing rolling shutters can be used with any ICF product provided the overall thickness of the wall, including the EPS is sufficient.  My ICF walls on the main floor are 10.5" thick (5.5" of concrete with 2.5" of EPS on each side).  I mistakenly said 12.5" thick earlier, but that was the thickness of the foundation walls, not the above grade walls.  Interior and exterior finishing is not included in this wall thickness dimension.  I covered the ICF with 1/2" gypsum board on the inside and Hardie board lap siding on the outside.

The brand of roll shutters I purchased was Rollac Rolling Shutters.  They are made of extruded aluminum with a foam insulation core.

So the shutter reel area that faces the exterior, what did you do to seal off that area from the exterior wall? It appears to be no OSB there, just the shutter box steel.

Do you get any air or water leaks from the shutter track areas or the reel area? How do you waterproof the shutter box area on the outside?

Is an access panel on the interior side mandatory or could one just drywall the shutter reel area?

If you have any more install pics, they would be appreciated.  THANKS!

Posted By Clark on 04 Dec 2011 11:29 AM

Installing the roll shutters in this way is more complicated and labor intensive, but I felt that the end result would be more pleasing architecturally. 

--Clark

Posted By Lbear on 04 Dec 2011 04:10 PM

Posted By Clark on 04 Dec 2011 11:29 AM

Installing the roll shutters in this way is more complicated and labor intensive, but I felt that the end result would be more pleasing architecturally. 

--Clark

I agree, your method of install is the better method to go by. Large shutter reel boxes on the outside of the home are IMHO, quite ugly. The inside boxes are better but still are not appealing. Hiding the shutter assembly like you did is the way to go. Not all my windows will have shutters, just the south facing ones and MAYBE the west facing ones. In the summer I want to be able to cut down on the solar gain.

You mentioned that you sealed the shutter box assembly from water intrusion with window flashing tape. Did you wrap the exposed OSB in that area with Tyvex?

My exterior finish is going to be stucco, so I would have to leave 1/2" - 1" of space after the OSB and the ICF EPS so that one can place some EPS in front of the OSB so that it will be flush with the EPS, then the entire wall would be stuccoed.

I also agree that an access panel needs to be there to access the shutter reel assembly. I would probably do likewise and wrap the the window bay area with wood trim all the way around, which will have to be done anyways because the ICF wall is so thick, it is more appealing when wood is present.

Bump

Posted By Clark on 04 Dec 2011 07:25 PM

Yes, when the siding was installed, I placed some felt paper over the plywood cover to divert any water that might be driven up behind the Hardie board siding.

I, too, only installed the shutters on four larger windows which are exposed to strong sun rays late in the afternoon.  I did recess all of my windows, though, for uniformity of appearance.

I'm glad I was able to give you some ideas and I hope your design works out well.  Be sure to let us know how you do and include a couple of photos.

Posted By solar geek on 10 Dec 2011 01:33 AM
We have just finished the design for the windows in our currently being built ICF home and we too have struggled with what to do with the deep sills.  We have decided to use beautiful tiles, similar to homes in Europe, on each sill.  We did not find granite to be cost effective (although I loved the look).  Our main concern is not to have wood as we are aggressively passive solar and we found with the last home, I was literally sealing and restaining the window sill wood each year - way to much maintenance!
Re the rolling shutters, we had spec'ed them for all the windows, then just for the south facing windows. We had to drop that idea as the quotes (one was the Rollac) DOUBLED the price of the windows. And that was without the electric setup- Yikes:(  Wish we could have done it but with quotes from $27,000 + we just could not fit them into our budget. 
It may be that they are more reasonable in the South where there are hundreds of dealers/installers.  Here in the north, we had to get people in from a state away to get quotes and installation.

We did not find granite to be cost effective

I was literally sealing and restaining the window sill wood each year

Posted By Lbear on 10 Dec 2011 03:08 AM

Posted By solar geek on 10 Dec 2011 01:33 AM
We have just finished the design for the windows in our currently being built ICF home and we too have struggled with what to do with the deep sills.  We have decided to use beautiful tiles, similar to homes in Europe, on each sill.  We did not find granite to be cost effective (although I loved the look).  Our main concern is not to have wood as we are aggressively passive solar and we found with the last home, I was literally sealing and restaining the window sill wood each year - way to much maintenance!
Re the rolling shutters, we had spec'ed them for all the windows, then just for the south facing windows. We had to drop that idea as the quotes (one was the Rollac) DOUBLED the price of the windows. And that was without the electric setup- Yikes:(  Wish we could have done it but with quotes from $27,000 + we just could not fit them into our budget. 
It may be that they are more reasonable in the South where there are hundreds of dealers/installers.  Here in the north, we had to get people in from a state away to get quotes and installation.

Wow, $27k for shutters is insane. Was that the entire home or just the south windows?

Shutters are more common in the west & east coast. Maybe being that far north, you don't get insane summer sun and no hurricanes, therefore shutters are not common.

Post pics once you are done with your window trim...

Lbear,  I apologize for overreacting a bit in an earlier post -- I suppose I have a breakdown when I hear the words "tried and true";).   Anyway,  here are some additional ideas for you.   In above photo the buck is ripped to the depth that you want to set the window.  In this case you have a two inch rip all the way around (shown still in place).  When you take off this strip of predetermined depth you can set your window whereever you wish.   In this case the target was glass flush with exterior so the rip was about 2".  Result is window glass flush with exterior plane.  Of course you could use a 4" rip etc.  Also, some installers will build buck normally but larger and then later put in extra wood to support window at desired depth.   Regards.

Now for an interior example:



In this case inside is built for a 45 degree slope to the inside (this is a restaurant so they don't want dust collecting etc.   You can do something similar all the way around and return your brick or stone to the window. 

Finally, regular thick wall inside look.   This house was all stone so walls were very thick even though ICF was only 6" (11 1/4") overall.  Regards.

You are right the discards are not expensive but cutting is - at least where we live.