I’ve followed this forum for a couple of years, but this is my first post. First of all, I want to thank some of the regular posters who have provided me with some of the insight and knowledge I needed for my project through their posts and discussions. I also wanted to let people know about my experience and maybe provide some helpful insight to someone else considering a similar ICF project. And of course everyone likes pictures, so I’ll include a few.

To start off, I’d like to have my dream home built with ICF’s in a couple years. So, about a year ago I decided I wanted to get a little experience and build an ICF storm shelter myself. I know this was a bit of an ambitious project for someone who works in a completely different industry and who had never seen an ICF block in person until I had the full semi load delivered to my yard a few months ago. I also didn’t want to take any time off from my regular job (40-50 hours a week), because I needed to pay for this little project somehow.

What I eventually settled on in my design was about a 1200sqft storm shelter that is about 18ft below grade (to the floor) and with about 7ft of dirt on top of the structure. I wanted go extra deep to reach a fairly constant ground temperature (about 68 degrees +/- 2 degrees around here). Also, I figured I wouldn’t have to worry about hail damage if I went that deep.

I started last winter with a rough idea of what I wanted, and figured I was going to need a good engineer. I was fortunate to find an excellent engineer on this forum – Jerry. He has been an enormous help with my project from start to finish. I presented him with what I wanted, and after a couple meetings, some soil testing, and a bunch of emails, he gave me a sealed set of engineering diagrams.

I managed to get a building permit from the county for a “Storm Shelter” without having to provide any details on my project or unnecessary bureaucracy. Nobody builds basements in Texas, so it is not a basement.

I spent the spring and early summer researching what I would need to know to do this project myself and figuring/planning out the details. I also researched the different ICF blocks and manufacturers out there. The internet and Google are two great tools for this purpose. I called around a few manufacturers and was able to get what I thought was good price on the ICF forms. The sales rep I worked with (Dustin) was very helpful and enthusiastic with the sales process.

I calculated the rebar and forms I would need based on the engineer’s specs. I placed my orders for materials and spent the early and mid summer cutting and bending the 26,000 pounds of rebar I ordered. If I build another storm shelter someday, I think I’ll have the supplier pre-fab most of the pieces. It was a lot of work cutting and bending the rebar from 40ft sticks, but was worth doing at least once myself.

I had planned to break ground in early August – about the driest part of the year (and also the hottest). I figured dry was the most important factor because I didn’t want my project to turn into an 18ft deep swimming pool. I could foresee the project becoming a very big mess if we got any significant rains during the construction process. Fortunately, we remained in a drought during the project and ended up with a total of only about 3-4 inches of rain during the whole 3 month building process (from breaking ground to complete burial), and nothing more than an inch at a time.

This project took some pretty serious equipment to do the dirt work – moving about 3000 cubic yards to dig the hole, and about the same amount to bury and grade the surface afterwards. I had to hire someone with the right equipment to do this for me. This was the one part of the project where I underestimated the costs some.

It took about a week for my contractor to dig the hole, and then I got to work on the sump room and foundation. The sump room is a vertically oriented 5ft diameter HDPE pipe that goes down an additional 8ft below the floor (total of about 26ft below grade). This connects to the perimeter (French) drain that goes around the shelter, and will also come in handy when I decide to add a bathroom and other pluming inside.

I got the foundation poured without any problems, installed the perimeter drain and got to work on the fun part (the ICF walls). There was a slight learning curve as I figured out some of the smaller details of working with the blocks. The outside walls are all 12” concrete, so I had knock down forms. I was a little surprised how much time it took to put the forms together. I think I spent more time assembling the knock down blocks that I did cutting and stacking the blocks to build the walls.

As the walls got taller, I put up the bracing and walkway on the outside of the shelter. I used a modified form of some wood bracing diagrams I found on this form. I had debated for a while whether to rent real bracing or to build my own wood forms. I eventually decided on the wood bracing because I wouldn’t feel as pressured for time as I would if I were renting them by the day, and I could re-use the wood from the foundation to the roof. In the end, I feel it was probably a toss-up between the two (cost vs. labor).

The outside walls were of course all ICF, but I had decided to do some internal walls with ICF’s as well. When all the walls were up and my internal wind resistant doors (and zombie resistant as one of my brothers pointed out) were in place, I proceeded with the wall pour. Having never done or seen an ICF pour before (except for what I had seen on You Tube), there were a couple things that I learned doing the wall pour myself. First, I didn’t realize how messy it would be. I should have covered in plastic everything inside the structure that I didn’t want covered in a half inch of concrete splatter. I had some tools, doors, and other materials around that required quite a bit of clean-up after the wall pour. There is no fine control on the concrete flow coming out of the pump truck, and there was a lot of rebar sticking out of the top of the walls. Every time we moved the concrete pump hose, the concrete stream would hit rebar and splatter all over.

The second issue I ran across is that I had several “T” intersections in the walls, and I made these intersections myself by cutting the regular, straight blocks. I failed to anticipate the extra bracing I would need on the outside (top area of the “T”) and I did have a single moderate size blow out. That set us back about 20-30 minutes for cleanup and a quick re-enforcement job on the other intersections. Let me stress that the blow out was completely my fault, and not a problem with the brand of blocks I used. In fact I was very impressed with my ICF blocks. They had arrived well packaged and in excellent condition. There was good quality control throughout all the blocks and I would definitely use the same brand again.

The rest of the wall pour went without problems. After several days of cleanup, I started waterproofing the walls. I had looked at both the peel and stick and paint on waterproofing products designed for ICF’s. I did a fair amount of research and I felt it was kind of a toss-up between the two. It came down to the company that had the more responsive sales rep, and I went with a paint on product. In the end, I felt I made a good decision and would go with the paint (roll) on product again.

It might have been overkill, but in addition to the paint on waterproofing applied directly to the ICF, I added a layer of house wrap, followed by ¾ inch polystyrene insulation panels (to protect the ICF from the backfill and provide an extra drainage plane), and finally a layer of 9 mil plastic sheeting. The multiple layers of waterproofing and drainage planes and the French perimeter drain will hopefully prevent any water issues down the road. Fortunately we never ran into any ground water (even down 26ft at the bottom of the sump room) despite the fact that the structure is only about 120ft away from a pond I put in a few years ago.

Finally, I got to work on the roof. I went with the ICF decking product sold by the same manufacturer that provided the wall blocks. I followed the manufacturer’s recommendations on wood shoring, but added OSB on top of the 2x6 and 2x8 framing. I felt a little uncomfortable working with the polystyrene decking sitting on just the stick frame below and I felt it would be a little easier with some of the roof openings and a large center beam that were in the design specs.

The roof pour went without any problems. I used the same paint on waterproofing for the concrete roof and added a layer of the 9mil sheeting. After about 3 weeks we took down the internal wood scaffolding, and after the full 30 day concrete cure period I had the dirt guys cover it up.

This is not a project I would recommend to the average do-it-yourself guy out there, but it can be done. To be honest, I did have a couple people help me with the project – one of my brothers, and a local laborer with some concrete experience. But neither had any ICF experience (or had even heard of them), so I was the ICF expert on the job. I did do most of the labor myself to keep costs down and for the experience.

In a year or so I plan on putting my dream ICF house on top of the storm shelter. I’d like a good size house (about 6500-8000 sqft). Now this is more that I can build on my own, so if there are any good ICF architects / builders in the Dallas area, feel free to contact me.

There are two entrance/exits to the shelter. One is an ICF ladder well that will go to the outdoors and the other will be a spiral staircase attached to the future house. The spiral stairs will go through an additional section of the HDPE pipe sticking out of the top of the shelter.

There were a couple minor issues, but overall I think it went very well for my first ICF project. The basic structure is built, but I don’t plan on finishing / furnishing out the inside until later. I paid close attention to the costs and did some shopping around to try to make sure I was getting the best prices I could. In the end it cost about $75 a sqft to build the storm shelter (it would have been under $65 if I didn’t have to do all the dirt work). It will cost a little more to finish out the inside, but still think the total cost will be at or under $100 a sqft.

Thanks for taking the time to read about my project. And again, thank you to all the contributors on this forum and especially to my engineer - Jerry. I think it is a sign of a good engineer when he comes out to your inspect your final concrete pour, picks up a shovel and a float and helps out with the concrete pour for a couple of hours at no extra cost. Thanks also goes to my wife who watched the kids and put up with me spending most of my free time the past few months working on what she labeled my “man cave”.

Posted By nd96 on 29 Nov 2011 05:23 PM
...

What I eventually settled on in my design was about a 1200sqft storm shelter that is about 18ft below grade (to the floor) and with about 7ft of dirt on top of the structure. I wanted go extra deep to reach a fairly constant ground temperature (about 68 degrees +/- 2 degrees around here). Also, I figured I wouldn’t have to worry about hail damage if I went that deep.

Hail damage?  How freaking big is the hail down there? 


I think you will be safe from just about anything except possibly a direct strike by a nuclear warhead or a meteorite larger than a car.

By the way, those wall braces look familiar; although, an order of magnitude heavier duty than the ones I built. 

Very very impressive project. This is one heck of a storm shelter. I did notice your comment regarding possible interest in architects and installers I have a couple of similar sized large home projects in the DFW area in work if you would like to take a tour --- also approx 100K square foot church in Arlington if you'd like to visit and Weatherford College in Decatur. Nice work. Regards.

What a great story. Congratulations on your bunker! Just for laughs, why don't you post some pics of the interior?

I have heard the same complaint about the lack of control when using a boom pump.  Some measure of control can be had by attaching a ram horn to the end of the boom pump line.  A smaller diameter hose attached to a ram horn can be useful when filling thinner walls.

How deep were the concrete beams on the overhead and how much slab went above them?

How about the wind resistant doors? Fabbed locally or internet-sourced?

"By the way, those wall braces look familiar; although, an order of magnitude heavier duty than the ones I built."

Yep. I used your basic design and beefed it up (I had your post containing the pics bookmarked on my computer). I went with double 2x4 so that I could reuse them directly as some of the vertical supports on the decking. I also wanted to avoid any accidents, so I felt a little better with the sturdier bracing. There was a kicker with a turnbuckle on my final design for some fine tuning at the end.

Fortunately other than a few rebar scratches and some pretty nice concrete burns on my legs after the first pour, there were no real injuries. I knew concrete was an irritant, but didn't realize it would burn like that.

---------------------

"I have heard the same complaint about the lack of control when using a boom pump. Some measure of control can be had by attaching a ram horn to the end of the boom pump line. A smaller diameter hose attached to a ram horn can be useful when filling thinner walls."

I had read to use a reducer, so I made sure the pump company used it. It still felt (and it probably looked) a lot like a rodeo trying to wrestle the end of the pump line over and into the spots between the rebar. I'm sure there had to be a better way to do it. I just didn't know what it was.

--------------------

How deep were the concrete beams on the overhead and how much slab went above them? How about the wind resistant doors? Fabbed locally or internet-sourced?"

The engineer went for 12" deep concerete joists with 5 inches of slab on top of that. The larger center beam is 24 inches wide and 19.5 inches deep (with the cover).

The wind resistant doors were found on-line. They were made by a company called Homeland Safes (in California). They basically custom made them to my design / specs. They gave me a pretty good deal - I got 3 doors shipped to me for $2000 a door. A good company and I would recommend you check them out if you are shopping for something similar. I did a lot of shopping on-line. Just easier for me to do with my work schedule.

--------------------

I'll snap a few pics from inside the shelter and try to post them later this week for those interested.

Wow, that is one insane storm shelter. Are you preparing for the end of the world or something?

I assume you live in tornado country? Even if a F5 hit you directly, you would be completely safe while underground in that thing. You trenched awfully close to your home, it seems in some pics that the home is just a mere foot from the pit. 

The amount of re-bar in that project is mind boggling. How did you eliminate voids, did you use an internal vibrating method?

What psi and slump was the concrete? Are you in the construction business, because this was not a project for the DIY guy.

Wow, that is one insane storm shelter. Are you preparing for the end of the world or something?

I assume you live in tornado country? Even if a F5 hit you directly, you would be completely safe while underground in that thing. You trenched awfully close to your home, it seems in some pics that the home is just a mere foot from the pit.

The amount of re-bar in that project is mind boggling. How did you eliminate voids, did you use an internal vibrating method?

What psi and slump was the concrete? Are you in the construction business, because this was not a project for the DIY guy.

I live just a little north of Dallas, so we do see some good storms and tornadoes around here.

The house right next to the hole is actually a guest house that is currently being taken down to make room for the future ICF house.

I did use an internal vibrator. However, it was very difficult to reach the bottom 1/3 of the walls (over 9ft tall), through all the re-bar. I did some testing for voids afterwards and think it filled fairly well. I did about 150-200 test probes through the Styrofoam. About 1 out of every 25 test sites the probe went in a little further than the 2.5" expected. Most were within 1/4 an inch, and I only found one void that was over 1/2 an inch (actually was 7/8"). Most of the void areas were near corners. I assume the concrete didn't flow around the corners all that well. Not perfect, but overall I don't think it was too bad.

The floor concrete was 3500 and the walls and roof were 4000psi. We went for a 6" slump with each pour. Yes, a lot of re-bar, but I guess you need it that far underground.

No, I don't work in the construction industry - I actually work in the medical field. But my father was a carpenter and did work on some side-jobs with him as a kid before going off to college. I did do a heck of a lot of on-line research and planning before I started the construction process. I agree, this is not a project for the average DIY guy.

nd96,

Your project with all of that congested rebar would have been a prime candidate for LaFarge's Agilia mix.  It flows so well that on small projects the hose would not have to be moved and vibrating may not have been needed.  In fact, this mix flows so well that the slump test actually measures spread instead of slump.  Unfortunately, the Agilia mix is not available everywhere and it costs more than regular mix but less workers are needed which may help offset the extra cost for the special mix.

They were made by a company called Homeland Safes (in California).

Ha Ha. I thought they looked familiar. I used them for mine.

I did use an internal vibrator. However, it was very difficult to reach the bottom 1/3 of the walls (over 9ft tall), through all the re-bar. I did some testing for voids afterwards and think it filled fairly well. I did about 150-200 test probes through the Styrofoam. About 1 out of every 25 test sites the probe went in a little further than the 2.5" expected. Most were within 1/4 an inch, and I only found one void that was over 1/2 an inch (actually was 7/8"). Most of the void areas were near corners. I assume the concrete didn't flow around the corners all that well. Not perfect, but overall I don't think it was too bad.

The floor concrete was 3500 and the walls and roof were 4000psi. We went for a 6" slump with each pour. Yes, a lot of re-bar, but I guess you need it that far underground.

With ICF's, vibrating the concrete is MANDATORY. There is another thread about that but studies show that it is NOT optional, vibrating is a must. Corners are NOTORIOUS for voids, that is always the worst spot for voids, yet that is where structural strength is mostly needed. Internal vibrators are the industry standard, external ones have been tested and shown that they do not work that well. Pounding on the wall with a hammer and block of wood is useless.

One cannot over vibrate a wall, that is for sure, unless it has a blow out. 

Posted By Lbear on 30 Nov 2011 08:59 PM

With ICF's, vibrating the concrete is MANDATORY. There is another thread about that but studies show that it is NOT optional, vibrating is a must. Corners are NOTORIOUS for voids, that is always the worst spot for voids, yet that is where structural strength is mostly needed. Internal vibrators are the industry standard, external ones have been tested and shown that they do not work that well. Pounding on the wall with a hammer and block of wood is useless.

One cannot over vibrate a wall, that is for sure, unless it has a blow out. 

How many walls have you poured?

Posted By arkie6 on 30 Nov 2011 11:36 PM

How many walls have you poured?

Your argument is not with me but with Portland Cement and the engineers who conducted scientific testing with ICF's and posted this study:

Voids Within ICF Walls


Even ICF Magazine admits that this is a valid issue with ICFs. All external vibrating methods showed significant voids within the walls.


The OP used extensive internal vibrating methods and he still encountered some minor voids.

I'm not an expert, but I decided on the internal vibration because the general consensus from my reading pointed to that being the best method. I'm sure other methods are satisfactory in some situations - depending on the slump, amount and spacing of rebar, gravel size, and maybe half a dozen other factors. There are probably too many variables to make an absolute statement about one method or another. I just felt internal was better to use in my situation.

Posted By Lbear on 01 Dec 2011 04:20 AM

Posted By arkie6 on 30 Nov 2011 11:36 PM

How many walls have you poured?

Your argument is not with me ...

Yes, my argument is with you.  Your post above gives the impression you have lots of experience working with concrete.  I suspect you have little or no experience with it.  You were just using a magazine article for the basis of your post, the same article that most of us have seen before.  And on top of that you hype up your post by using words like MANDATORY in all caps.  That's not stated in the article. 

And anyone that states you can't over vibrate concrete clearly doesn't have a good understanding of what they are discussing.

Most of the significant void problems in that article were due to using too low of a slump concrete.  Higher slump concrete resulted in few if any voids even with little or no vibration - see Figure 15, 21, 28, 29, and 30 as examples.

Do most ICF installers order a mix with a slump of 6?  If so, then as much as 2" of slump can be lost passing through the pump.  Is it reasonable to assume that the slight loss of slump can increase the quantity and size of voids?  If so, then a higher inital slump should be ordered.  However, higher slumps will cost more if created by a mid or high-range admixture.  Your thoughts, please.

Posted By arkie6 on 01 Dec 2011 07:45 AM

Yes, my argument is with you.  Your post above gives the impression you have lots of experience working with concrete.  I suspect you have little or no experience with it.  You were just using a magazine article for the basis of your post, the same article that most of us have seen before.  And on top of that you hype up your post by using words like MANDATORY in all caps.  That's not stated in the article. 

And anyone that states you can't over vibrate concrete clearly doesn't have a good understanding of what they are discussing.

Most of the significant void problems in that article were due to using too low of a slump concrete.  Higher slump concrete resulted in few if any voids even with little or no vibration - see Figure 15, 21, 28, 29, and 30 as examples.

What you are stating that you have built ICF's without performing any vibrating methods, correct?

The Portland Cement engineers stated that one can't over vibrate and the Portland Cement engineers stated that vibrating ICF's is mandatory or significant voids are to be expected, especially in corners and high re-bar areas.

The study shows what happened when NO vibration methods were being used and they ripped open the ICF forms. The amount of voids was shocking. When higher slumps were used, it weakened the concrete structure and dropped the psi rate.

The point of all of this is a discussion on ICF. The trade/designs of ICF is still not mainstream and the techniques and practices are all over the place. I am trying to educate myself to see if I would use ICF in building my home. One thing for sure, I would NOT employ an ICF contractor who does not implement vibration methods when using ICF. If an ICF contractor told me that they don't use any vibrating techniques, I would not even talk with them and find another ICF contractor. That is just my view.

Posted By Lbear on 01 Dec 2011 01:51 PM

What you are stating that you have built ICF's without performing any vibrating methods, correct?

No, I did not state or imply that.

If an ICF contractor told me that they don't use any vibrating techniques, I would not even talk with them and find another ICF contractor. That is just my view.

I just completed 9 pours on my ICF home. The contractor made sure a vibrator was present and tested for each pour. We used it to vibrate some regular 8" panel formed walls and we used it to vibrate a large composite beam that was 3/4 conventionally formed. That was because it had reinforcing rings every 4" on center.

The rest of the build was heavily reinforced, but the number of other places we vibrated was about 5, total and each only after a "conference" with the Number 1 and Number 2 on the job. It looks to me like they vibrated at the location where each lift began and ended and that's about it.. I have found no voids so far and we've been into a lot of places. I had ARXX block which has rounded internal corners. That may help prevent voids at those locations.

My conclusion is that if your ICF contractor is experienced enough and uses proper mix and placement technique, the need for vibrating is very, very low. Hope that helps you.

When we were pouring the walls of my house I grabbed the vibrator and started to vibrate. The concrete contractor said not to do that, the risk of blow outs was too great. He used the vibrator at the corners and to flow the concrete under the windows. He ordered the concrete so it would around 6" slump out of the hose and with 3/8" aggregate. He had the plant make it a 6 bag mix. The heavier cement content aided in the flow. I found no voids anywhere with a probe or when putting anchor bolts into the wall. I'm sure the concrete had some air entrained in it, but I have to ask, "So what?"

Let's look at the impact on strength by entraining air, having voids, or using a high slump mix. The target is generally around 3000 psi or greater, right? As we all know, concrete has strength only in compression. On my house the gable wall at one end is 14' high. The total load, live and dead, at the footing is roughly 4500 psf, max. That is equal to 31 psi! Even if the concrete strength is reduced to 1500 psi by the air, voids, and slump, it still is 50 times greater than the load it is bearing. Why all the fuss about the effect of air, voids, and slump on concrete strength? Lateral strength is provided by the rebar and that changes very little regardless of concrete strength.

Based on my experience with one house, I say flowability is the paramount parameter to be concerned with. Vibrate as needed, but don't get wrapped around the rebar about vibrating. It ain't worth it.

Here are a few pics from the inside. I haven't put on the outside ladder hatch or put the ladder in place yet, but they should be easy to do. I need to catch up with everything else around the house that I've put off doing the past few months. The ladder well should be big enough to get full sheets of plywood or sheetrock through.

Looking down the ladder entrance.

Looking up from the inside of the ladder room.

Looking from the ladder room to the main area. You can see one of the wind resistant doors.

A couple shots from inside the main area.

A couple shots from the stair room (will connect from the house through the 5ft diameter HDPE pipe).

Finally, a shot from another room that has access to the sump room.

The whole structure consists of one large center room plus 4 smaller rooms. Two of the smaller rooms are for entry/exit with the spiral staircase or the ladder. Overall, I think I have the best storm shelter on the block.

You wouldn't happen to be same guy who's building a bomb shelter home inside the mountain northeast of McCall, in central Idaho, would you? It's not ICF though. It's said he's somebody from Texas.

No, I actually live in Texas and built it in Texas. Don't think I have ever been to Idaho.

Posted By nd96 on 02 Dec 2011 07:47 PM
No, I actually live in Texas and built it in Texas. Don't think I have ever been to Idaho.

I didn't really think so. You're building your shelter for a sane reason, hurricanes & tornadoes. It's rumored the guy building the bunker in the Idaho mountain is a Texas oil baron who wants to escape an eventual nuclear bombing. The garage, or warehouse more so, part of it is inside the mountain and large enough for at least a couple of semi truck trailer units. We see him as plumb crazy.

Sometimes I think this is a dangerous forum. Here we have a guy (dmaceld) who has 1070 posts but has apparently been involved in one ICF house construction posting like an expert, contradicting the entire concrete industry and decades of research.

If he were a professional consultant I'd say -- I hope your errors and omissions policy is up to date. For the folks reading this forum to gather real information, please bear in mind that there are a lot of amateurs on this forum who post like experts but are actually propagating myths, conjecture and outright falsehoods. Anything you read here should be verified by a licensed professional, and remember, building an ICF house is not a do-it-yourself project. Sorry to be the wet blanket at this party.

remember, building an ICF house is not a do-it-yourself project

Hmmmmm.... Is that a new industry policy or your professional opinion?

Professional opinion, of course.

I think it's important for the green and innovating building industry to keep hearing from non-professionals. It's also lucky for the ICF industry that I decided to build with ICF despite the opinions of the first 5 or 6 "professionals" I sat down with.

Posted By BrucePolycrete on 03 Dec 2011 09:12 AM
  ...and remember, building an ICF house is not a do-it-yourself project.

This very thread disproves your statement above.  Go back and read the title and first post in this tread.  ICF are easily a DIY project for someone that is well prepared.

Posted By BrucePolycrete on 03 Dec 2011 10:23 AM
Professional opinion, of course.

What profession do you hold a license in?  Based on your history of posting here, I though you were a Polycrete ICF salesman.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 03 Dec 2011 11:04 AM
I think it's important for the green and innovating building industry to keep hearing from non-professionals. It's also lucky for the ICF industry that I decided to build with ICF despite the opinions of the first 5 or 6 "professionals" I sat down with.

ICFHybrid, (and arkie6)  I must agree with you regarding the non-pro contribution and how important it is ---  I think it's huge to the overall momentum of the industry.  Demand for better ultimately pushes the professional to add to his toolbox - they usually dont' want to at first.    I've worked with (about 25 or so do-it yourselfer homes) over the past few years and they have all turned out great.    They require different levels of attention depending on construction experience from almost none to a disproportionally huge amount.   It seems that they are the guys that are the proudest of there homes and each will result in a couple more homes -- EVERY TIME.

I am required to provide training and/or onsite support and cannot sell ICF to some guy that wants to skip training and give it a try.   In some cases I end up actually doing the install (or suggesting an installer in our network) but for the most part these guys are the thinkers out there that are pushing the bar up for the professionals.   Okay, before you knuckleheads start throwing tomatoes.... I am saying they push the bar up because the professional is being required to add to his quiver and get out of the norm.

The do it yourselfer typically has a tough time convicing the 5 or 6 professionals framers etc. to try building to a higher level.   Sometimes they just have to take things into their own hands.  Sometimes a 3000 square foot install takes a month instead of a week but I don't really see the harm if the right support is provided.   They are the proudest home owners and the best sales persons out there.  Regards.

Arkie, I'm president of PolycreteUSA. We hire licensed professionals.

The point of my thread was not to say that any amature out there can build with ICF's. I would not endorse that and feel it would be bad for the ICF industry by promoting sub-par construction. However, the right person with some hard work and good support (my engineer was a significant help with the whole process. He's got extensive ICF experience and posts frequently on this board), ICF construction can be done by a DIY person. I sincerely believe ICF's give you a vastly superior product compared with traditional building methods.

I know my limits, so that is why I will be looking for a professional to build my house. But now that I do have a little first hand experience and am more familar with the whole process, I think I will end up with a better product from the professional as well.

Posted By BrucePolycrete on 03 Dec 2011 03:45 PM
We hire licensed professionals.

Please read my response in the new thread I started just for this issue.

I can attest to the fact that nd96 is an outstanding example of how well a DIY-er can build with ICF... or anything for that matter. He read up on the intricacies of it, asked lots of questions, (listened to the answers) and dove into it. The results were about as good as any I've seen on the functional side. Proof that this indeed CAN be done by a non-professional. A tip of the hat to him.
Professional? nd96 is a licensed professional, just not in construction. And I don't think Texas ICF or insuldeckflorida are licensed professionals, but I've seen their work and they are both at the top of the heap, along with others.

This industry is grand, and it thrives on the contributions of many diverse, dedicated, individuals. Ain't it GREAT?!

Sorry to be late to the party, but I'm planning on building something almost exactly like this, so it's an awesome post, with the photos and all. I just had a few questions for the OP, if he's still around. Why did you chose to use ICF for the ceiling of the shelter, instead of simple concrete and rebar? What is the advantage of it? Seems like you put a ton of rebar in anyway. Also, how much would something like this cost me, as I'm older and not able to do much of this myself. Possibly an extra 10k for labor? Anyone care to give me a rough estimate, I'm guessing $75k-$85k range? Mine couldn't be this deep underground, maybe just 6 feet. One idea I have is to install on the side of the hill and actually have the front exposed, more of an underground house. I could always modify that if I needed to in a crisis to conceal the front. I'm a total newcomer here and to this community, so thanks!

(This would be in the Portland, OR or Arcadia, CA area).

Hello nd96:

This is 'off topic' but how were you able to post pictures? Thanks

Don't use the "Quick Reply" box at the bottom of the window. 

Click on the "+ Add Reply" button below the bottom left side of the last post.

At the bottom of the window is the "Attachments" folder.  Open that folder.

Click "Browse..." and find the picture file that you want to post.  Note the size limitations on the picture file.  I think the file size has to be <100 kb.  You will most likely have to reduce the size of your picture file considerably using Windows or your camera software.  I never reduce the original file but create a second file with "small" at the end.  You will need to do this before uploading the photo or you will get an error.  Once you have selected the file, Upload it.

Then place your cursor where you want to insert the photo.

Then click the "Insert Image" button next to the file name.  Like so.  Then submit.

Thank you.

nd96 that is the best man cave I have ever seen.

jdylan - Sorry, I hadn't checked the board in a couple weeks.

I decided to go with ICF's for the roof for a couple reasons. First, It took some hefty joists to support that dirt above the roof. The ICF forms make it pretty easy to do longer spans since you pour the joists in place. I don't think just a plain concrete slab would have worked as well. Second, I was using the storm shelter as practice for my new house. I will be using an ICF floor system for the floors and between living and attic. It just makes a better thermal box/igloo, allows for longer spans, and makes a nice strong structure. Plus, a 5000sqft concrete floor attic for storage will come in handy later on. I'm sure there are other ways to get the same results, but some of it is just personal preference.

Cost to build the storm shelter was about 90k. It is 1152 sqft (48' long x 24' wide). That is unfurnished, but did include engineering, all the materials, some labor, safe doors, hatch and pipe/plumbing rough in etc. The excavation and dirt work was a large part of the cost (about 18k). So depending on how deep/shallow you go, that will change.

Onesojourner - thanks for the compliment. I plan on starting the castle that will sit on top of my man cave the first week in January. I'm looking forward to it.

Here is a picture of the ladder exit / hatch. The other end of the shelter will be accessed from the house by a staircase.

Did you use IndulDeck for the roofing? How deep was the slab?

Lbear - I used buildblock for the walls and builddeck for the roof. They gave me the best price at the time I was shopping around. The roof has 12" deep joists plus a 5" cap. The big center roof beam is 21.5" deep including the cap.

The new house will be Nudura walls and Insul-deck floors. I'm not going to do the ICF work myself, but I'll keep a close eye on the guy doing it, now that I have a little bit of experience.

Posted By nd96 on 23 Dec 2012 12:55 AM
Lbear - I used buildblock for the walls and builddeck for the roof. They gave me the best price at the time I was shopping around. The roof has 12" deep joists plus a 5" cap. The big center roof beam is 21.5" deep including the cap.

The new house will be Nudura walls and Insul-deck floors. I'm not going to do the ICF work myself, but I'll keep a close eye on the guy doing it, now that I have a little bit of experience.

For the new home: 6" or 8" concrete core for the walls?

Will the home be a 1-story or 2 story? If 2-story, will you use InsulDeck for the 2nd floor?

2 story plus a few more feet of wall to increase the height in the attic. And a tower on top. All the floors will be concrete/insuldeck. I debated between 6 and 8" walls for a little while and eventually went with 6". I've always got the storm shelter for the really big tornadoes.

It should look something like this:

What about the roof. Is it wood frame or is there a concrete roof under the shingles?

Posted By samix on 23 Dec 2012 08:31 PM
What about the roof. Is it wood frame or is there a concrete roof under the shingles?

I believe he said that there will be a concrete floor at the base of the attic and the actual pitched roof will be wood truss. In the event of a strong tornado the wood roof trusses will go but the home will remain intact structurally because it will have the concrete floor protecting the homes envelope.

I had looked into doing a concrete roof. However, there were a few things that eventually made me give up on the idea. First, the roof design is moderately cut up with several different peaks and valleys. The engineer I was working with wasn't comfortable with doing the roof design I wanted in concrete. I could have changed the design to something simpler that the engineer would have been comfortable with, but it would have affected the aesthetics of the house.

The second issue is cost. The concrete roof itself would add about 100k over cost over a conventional roof. The weight of the roof would also have added to the foundation costs. I live in the Dallas area and we have horrible expansive clay soil here. It goes up and down several inches with rain/drought. To mitigate this, I'm using drilled piers for the foundation and post tension in the slab. We did soil tests going down 25 ft, and never hit rock, so there will be almost 100 concrete piers all going down 25 ft to support the weight of the concrete already in the house. Another 50 tons of concrete in the roof would have added probably about another 15-20k to the foundation costs.

I'm going with a wood frame roof with a ridge beam and engineered lumber instead of trusses. I wanted my attic as wide open as possible so that I can utilize the space later. All my utilities will run in the ceilings between floors, so I won't have any duct work or AC equipment in the attic. I'm using my pond for a geothermal loop and the heat-pump will be in a utility room on the 1st floor. There will be several columns/king posts to support the roof in certain areas, but the attic will be almost wide open and be tall enough to walk around comfortably. It will basically be a 5000sqft insulated, concrete floor storage space/workshop.

Like Lbear stated, I will have the concrete floors to help keep the house structurally intact in a storm. I might have to replace the Spanish tile roof if it were hit by a tornado, but I think it would take a lot to structurally damage the concrete box.

Outstanding project! I expect to see it at the ICF Builders Awards in a few years once all the 'pretty' stuff is completed. I love seeing people do creative stuff with ICF even if it isn't the system I rep. Cheers!

nd96: thanks for the update and info. I'm also happy to hear about the price, as I don't have that much disposable income (3 kids in college!), and what you've built for the price gives me an idea of what I need to spend. Although a little smaller than what I plan to build, I feel a lot better about the whole thing.

I'm debating making mine a hidden shelter like yours, versus a simple cement house on top, making the shelter a hidden basement. Thanks again!

I just started a new thread for the house - "New ICF House Project". I'll post house updates there. Thanks to all those who have contributed to this thread and given their input.

TO: nd96

The photos for your build aren't showing up? I was interested in building a "storm shelter" as well using ICF, could you repost the photos please or allow me to pick your brain on some questions

For future internet searchers, I grabbed OP's pics from the WayBack Machine archive and re-posted them at this link: https://imgur.com/a/1geMf5x

I'm glad to see someone is still getting some use from this old thread. Here are a few additional pics for anyone who might be interested:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WjeAdYfJif5of2tUA

I built an ICF house and pool on the site over the past decade, but am now in the process of finishing out the inside of the shelter. I'll add some pics of my finish out to the above album if people are interested.

-nd96

Very cool. Appreciate the updated photos and would be happy to see any additional.

Very nice....Thanks for sharing...

Did you price out doing the roof with precast, prestressed decking? We did a 30x40 over under garage with that stuff and it was $12,000 which I thought was cheap.

Thanks! I hadn't looked into prestressed decking with the original build. The ICF and construction work is more of a hobby/something to do in my spare time. I knew 11 years ago that I wanted to build a house with ICF, so the storm shelter was a trial/learning project for me. In another 5 or 10 years, I'd like to build a new shop/barn with a below grade level and a solar rooftop. I'll check out the prestressed decking when I start planning that project.