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Thermocore SIP?
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roastbeef
 New Member
 Posts:5
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Lockard
 New Member
 Posts:40
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| 26 Jan 2008 12:20 PM |
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Roastbeef.
I've talked to Pat Egan at Thermocore of Indiana about this. Thermocore did send one of their installers to look at the problem. It seems that the Thermocore panels are the best thing about the house.
Apparently the builder did a questionable job in storing and installing the panels. But it seems that the real problem was how badly the floor system was built.
From what I've heard, an undersized and/or overloaded basement beam sagged badly, and the floor joists were not even vertical, they leaned. The floor was sagging so badly, the cabinets pulled away from the panels, as did interior partitions. The panels did not pull away from anything even though the panels weren't installed according to the install manual.
I gather that this matter between Kevin and his builder is going to the courts. Understandably, most people involved with this case probably aren't (can't be) saying much. At least until it's been resolved.
I feel so sorry for Kevin and his family. This has to be maddening.
Now, all of this is what I have heard, not seen. I'm not speaking on behalf of Kevin or Thermocore. But since we only use Thermocore of Missouri, and Indiana if they are closer to our job, I do intend to keep up with what's going on. Maybe Kevin will, in time, be back here and post what actually has happened.
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| Lockard |
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kevinbourland
 New Member
 Posts:31
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| 23 Nov 2008 08:46 AM |
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Almost one year later,
Here is my update.
As stated before, I cannot speak too much about the situation.
The walls are still not repaired. I did a temp fix on the kitchen wall. I added a turn buckle eye bolt, fastened to the half wall to pull the wall into the countertops, where they used to be. Now that the cold weather is coming back, the wall is trying to go out again.
I had to hire my own Engineering firm to evaluate the cause, since I had no help from "The Hoosier State". Even though they are less than four hrs. away, and were even in my home town for a convention last Winter . Once paid, it seems that you are on your own.
Would I build with these panels again..........
I do believe that I would use SIPS. But would look into other types and companies. I would study about sound transmissions from the variouse materials used. My walls are sooooo loud. The area where I used Nova Brick are quite, but the vinyl sided area's are really really loud and the sound transmits down and around corners.
I would have the contractor screw all the interior walls to the panels, they pull away if nailed, and cause your sheetrock tape to pull from corners.
I would look into the 6" walls instead of the 4" walls. They might be more forgiving on the required loads, and not bow, bulge etc..
I will say this.... Thermocore of Indiana did produce the walls as per plans, the windows, doors, electrical outlets etc where all put in the correct locations, and sized perfectly.
I would look
We just want closure,
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| Kevin |
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Kyle241
 New Member
 Posts:33
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| 23 Nov 2008 12:03 PM |
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Wow, sorry for your problems Kevin. When it comes to homebuilding problems, these can be really more than one can bear. As for whomever is "at fault", they should come to the table and work out a viable solution that will satisfy you and all parties. Unfortunately I have experienced, seen and heard too many people involved in the construction trade that should not be. Then there are also many good people that unfortunately get painted with the same brush as the bad. Your story does however put a lot of caution into my decision making of whether or not to use SIPs. I like the idea of the product however need to do a lot more investigation on whether it's a viable solution for us.
Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry you have gone through this though as only yesterday I looked at one of your posts last year showing the walls up in a 1-2 days and thought it looked like a great job done. |
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kevinbourland
 New Member
 Posts:31
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| 23 Nov 2008 02:23 PM |
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I would build with SIPS again. What a great concept. We would address a few things different, but that is how we learn, individually and as a group. The house just has a quirky wall, we just want it to stay in one spot, and know that it will not buckle down . We kind of like our kitchen indoors. I have been looking at http://www.templeinland.com/BuildingProducts/Fiberboard/SoundChoice/default.aspfor noise suppresion for the outside skin. Instead of framing another wall along inside skin. Any idea's anyone? |
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| Kevin |
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PanelCrafters
 Advanced Member
 Posts:680
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| 23 Nov 2008 05:35 PM |
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Posted By kevinbourland on 11/23/2008 8:46 AM Almost one year later,
Here is my update.
As stated before, I cannot speak too much about the situation. I guess not. This post differs quite a bit from the post that I received via email earlier today. I guess that you changed your mind about that post.
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Tom Riccio
 New Member
 Posts:2
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| 24 Nov 2008 09:40 AM |
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Kevin,
Sorry you are still having problems with the house. I started to reply to your first posting but since the that has been removed I'm at a quandary.
As I originally posted on 1/11/08 that I feel Thermocore panels are superior to all the rest and I would never question Pat Egan's integrity. I still believe this, I built with Thermocore's panels in 2008, and we are planning a couple of homes with Thermocore panels in 2009! I have never had a problem with this product and still believe in it very strongly.
Thank, Tom Riccio Sanctuary Custom Homes, Inc. |
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kevinbourland
 New Member
 Posts:31
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| 24 Nov 2008 10:02 PM |
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Mr.Riccio,
Yes, it is amazing to design a house, have the panels delivered with electrical outlets/chases installed. All of the panels were cut perfect.
Too bad you are not in the area, your experience might be really handy with an idea on fixing the wall. Any ideas on sound barrier? I have this in mind, for outside skin.http://www.templeinland.com/BuildingProducts/Fiberboard/SoundChoice/default.asp
Thanks
Kevin |
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| Kevin |
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greentree
 Advanced Member
 Posts:587
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| 24 Nov 2008 10:29 PM |
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Kevin, the product you linked doesnt appear to be for exterior applications so good luck with that, not to mention your water management issues with tight skinning osb. I would like a response from you (kevin) to Lockards post from 1/26/08, if correct then Thermocore has nothing to do with your problem and should sue you and panelcrafters for defamation, if false then you have reason to spout your negatives but the true cause needs to come to light, not speculative babble because it seems people are actually basing decisions off this mess. There is a design issue, the factory should not have produced an underdesigned shell if that is cause, and an installation issue which obviously has nothing to do with Thermocore unless it was some sort of approved installer or licensed dealer.
Here's what I get from this thread: you are impressed the panels were made correct from the manufacturer but are frustrated they were installed improperly and thus you would look at other manufacturers? |
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kevinbourland
 New Member
 Posts:31
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| 28 Nov 2008 08:25 AM |
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Hi Greentree, The bulged sip panel is on the sub floor in that area of course is on Rim board, the rim board is on the poured foundation. What would a beam have to do with it?
They should base their decisions on all of the information that they can get their hands on.
Ya, these are the noisest walls . People should know that these 4" walls are terrible for noise reduction. They actually channel the noise around corners etc....Nothing like laying in bed and hearing your neighbors, as if they are in you hallway etc.. Vehicle sounds , dogs etc..... all clear as a bell. Low pitch, high pitch, it does not matter.
Yes people should know that when you do have a problem with a companies product, that you will pretty much be on your own.
Yes,a contractor that had a tremendouse amount of experience with Thermocore panels came out. He was puzzled too, about everything stated. noise.... He was amazed at how much noise came thru the walls. and how it transmitted down the walls. He could only come up with theories about the bulge at the center of the wall. So... all of these people.Lockhart.etc... are basing their opinions on theory.
If only Thermocore had the time to actually come and try and solve the problem of their failed product. They were in in town for a seminar, and still do not care enouph to come to the site. We are just several hours apart..So, the wall continues to bulge. Maybe my house is so tight, that it blew..LOL.
If any of you experts want to come and check it out, feel free..I would love to get this remedied |
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| Kevin |
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greentree
 Advanced Member
 Posts:587
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| 28 Nov 2008 05:21 PM |
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Kevin, With no plan or load information everything anybody suggests is pure speculation...but if you have a beam that sags the floor joist lowers on one end and raises on the other compressing your panel. Or you have too much wall load with no crush blocks compressing an engineered rim which has little compressive strength and overloads your joists causing them to lean and tranfer load all caused by an underdesigned floor system, or the panel has a defect or something else. All just suggestions. I would want more factory support as well but it sounds like the underlying problem has more to do with your contractor than your sip supplier, that's what I was asking you to clarify..faulty installation, design or do you blame the sip company. And who designed the floor system, truss or rafter system and sip system? |
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Thermocore PS
 New Member
 Posts:6
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| 01 Dec 2008 08:52 AM |
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I find many of this post continue to lack facts or tell the whole story.
Here are some and certainly not all of the facts about Kevins home.
We did design and deliver panels to Kevins job sight.
All panels were design and manufactured in accordance with his plans and approved by Kevin and his contractor.
We did not install kevins panels although we do offer full install.
Kevins contractor had no previous experience installing panels
By Kevins own admission the panels were abused by the installer during install
The contractor, as told to me by Kevin, cut into the panels where he is having a problem to add electrical boxes without consulting with Thermocore.
The panels are not contributing to a noise problem at Kevins house. Our offices are made out of panels and I can ttell you they are quite. Kevin has a sump pump discharge pipe that our installers thought might be the source of noise in his house. I can assure you it is not the panels.
Given the height of Kevins walls I can assure you that any loads are not the problem. It is a fact that PU is the strongest of all the foams.
Panelcrafters- we did a panel job for you about 4 years ago and never heard a complaint about our panels. Other than your personal attacks towards me you should be able to speak to the merrits of our product.
As I have stated in prior postings, anyone including Kevin is welcome to contact me to talk about this or any other project.
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kevinbourland
 New Member
 Posts:31
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| 11 Dec 2008 07:22 PM |
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Thermocore Panels sing!!! Here is a little sample of what our experience has been everyday and night. You be the judge. By the way, the sump pump discharge is about two feet under the ground and passes thru the cement foundation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de_-Wav3Uhc |
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| Kevin |
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Thermocore PS
 New Member
 Posts:6
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| 12 Dec 2008 08:45 AM |
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Again, I am trying to do my best to address the issue expressed in this thread.
We sent an inspector out to Kevins house. As a service our inspector took a look at his entire house construction not just the panels. He uncovered numerous problems none relating to the panels themselves.
He uncovered a major problem with the floor system that was confirmed by the manufacturer.
He uncoverd a problem with the roof trusses.
He noted the noise from the sump pump discharge pipe into the house.
The basic finding was questionable workmanship on the part of the builder. I believe Kevin is suing his builder over the problems. I believe Kevin has needed to correct all of the problems we have pointed out to him which only lends creditablity to our findings.
I reported these findings to Kevin. I have tried to help Kevin Kevin continues to attack Thermocore dispite findings to the contrary.
I cannot undue what has been done. We offer install on every project we build for this very reason. We did not install Kevins panels. The installer makes the project. If proceedures are not followed problems can arise. Given the questionable building methods used on such basic items as floor systems and trusses, who knows how an unfamiliar product such as panels were delt with in the field. We know from Kevins own statements that the builder "abused" the panels during install. All Kevin needed to do was to call us and we would of sent someone out to supervise and be sure the panels are installed properly.
Lastly and again, if anyone has any questions or comments please contact me directly. My number is listed in these threads. We have been manufacturing the worlds most advanced panel system for over 10 years. I stand by our product and I stand behind our company. I do not stand behind other peoples work.
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Thermocore PS
 New Member
 Posts:6
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| 12 Dec 2008 09:14 AM |
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As a further note, Thermocore as I believe much of the industry does, sells our panels first and foremost for energy efficiency. The feedback we get from our clients that they are very satisfied and when mentioned our clients discribe their homes as quit. Plain and simple. Windows, penitrations, proximaty of outdoor HVAC equipment all play a roll in the amount of noise that you will hear in your home. Windows and doors are the weakest link.
Noise travels through pipes very well. Many playgrounds have pipes with funnels on the end so that kids can talk to each other. Grab a section of hose and see for yourself.
Feedback over 10 years from our customers is that our homes are energy effiecient and very comfortable. As mentioned by Kevin the panels were manufactured exactly as ordered. Unfortunatly what happened after they were unloaded is a different story. |
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kevinbourland
 New Member
 Posts:31
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| 12 Dec 2008 03:14 PM |
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This is hardly an attack, the video says it all. Literally.
The subject is THERMOCORE SIP ? This leads me to think, that possibly this person is enquiring about the company.......... Unless these forums are against the law, we, as your customer (whom have a first hand experience) should express to others our experience with the product, and support, or lack of from the company in quiestion. The good the bad .......... So, yes, my contractor could have damaged the panels, every one of them..... Maybe he put speakers inside of them. Pipes? so, the only pipes remotely close to panels are the rain gutters, and downspouts. So in essence, you are saying not to install rain gutters, or downspouts or the Thermocore SIPS panel will vibrate from the noise transitted down the downspouts and transmitt noise down the length of wall. Thats good info. Thanks... People with no rain gutters will appreciate this feature. Very disapointed in this company. A person would think that before a company blames everyone else with the issues of their product, they might actually investigate themselves. Maybe an honest error in design....maybe the foam .........whatever......If you deal with the Thermocore of Indiana. expect insulting phone calls.....getting yelled at.......and no support. No idea's or remedies.....nothing nada..... This "sump pump" discharge is underground......thru the cement foundation. Is my cement vibrating too? I will say this one more time. "Sips... are a great way to go. Do not get discouraged. I know that there are many reputable business owners out there, with a proven product."We need these companies to research and develop building systems which we all can benefit by. I really respect the owners and developers for taking chance's on new "frontiers" in the building industry. Along the way... there might be some projects that failed. We need to know why they failed, so that we can repair, redesign, change a procedure etc.. so, not to fail again. You hear the excuses, some of course are, kinda... far fetch. Thermocore Of Indiana is not concerned enouph to take a three hr. drive and investigate the problems. a shame...Bad for Industry.... |
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| Kevin |
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ReadyToRetire
 Basic Member
 Posts:212
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| 13 Dec 2008 01:21 PM |
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Kevin, I have no idea whether the vendor is a price among men or a true villain, and I have "no dog the fight." I do wish you luck, and I am interested. . . but I don't understand the basis. If you make pancakes for breakfast and some of them come off the griddle burned, is that the flour vendor's fault? I agree that vendors should stand by what they sell. And I believe that the reason we don't have as many problems with product safety as the Chinese do is that consumers here are able to sue to enforce their rights. I'm truly in favor of that -- you should be able to trust the information that you received from the vendor. Specifically what did Thermocore promise that they failed to deliver? Thermocore described what they've done. Is that description accurate? If not, can you specifically identify what was mis-stated? If it is accurate, why do you consider this to be Thermocore's fault?
Very respectfully, Larry |
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kevinbourland
 New Member
 Posts:31
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| 13 Dec 2008 02:48 PM |
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Larry,
Some good points. If you research Thermocore site, you will see that they mention being quiet. This was a huge factor in determining what green building system to go with. Thermocore bragged at how quiet their panels are to standard stud walls. So along with that info, and their ability to offer some great features, and performance #'s they were chosen.
Aside from the noise transfer, as you heard from video, There are problems with two panels.
I cannot get any help from Thermocore of IN, He refuses to come to the site. Since they do not have any engineers, it would probably be hard for them to determine cause of the panel bulge. Maybe eight electrical chase's too much in this area, maybe contractor is faulty. Who knows?
You people will say anything to promote and to get your "buck". When something fails....blames everyone else.
I will get my wall in place, so it does not move in and out, and pull from interior walls. I will install noise barrier walls in three rooms.
By other posts, this noise issue is not just Thermocore, it is others..but if the public knew of the noise transfered thru these SIPS walls, they might adjust plans for noise isolation.
So, if I could find an Engineer with sips experience to run some numbers on my Panel drawings, let me know, and maybe some insight on how to fix. This is all we want, to fix the walls.....and move with our completion of our beautiful home. |
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| Kevin |
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Thermocore PS
 New Member
 Posts:6
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| 15 Dec 2008 08:34 AM |
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This will be my final input into this thread. Kevin asked that we send someone out to review his situation and we did. No charge, no strings. We inspected his home, answered questions and advised him on other build issues with his house. We did everything Kevin asked. I sent my most experienced field panel person to his house as he requested. We reported to him what we felt were the issues with his home including but not limeted to his panels. He seemed satisfied.
Again I can not undue the fact that Thermocore did not install his panels. I can not undue the fact that his builder did not know what he was doing when it came to installing panels. I can not undo the fact that Kevins builder cut into the panels in the location where Kevin is having a problem.
We went to Kevins house to inspect his house and reported to him what we found. This is part of our customer service. We advised him on steps he could take to improve the quality of his home. Again this is what Kevin asked us to do and we did.
I can not address the noise issues in his house. Any data we have about noise comes from our customers and my own experience working in offices made from our panels. Given all the problems Kevin has had with his house (most not related to panels) who knows what might have taken place during install that could be contributing to the problem. I can not advise Kevin on how to improve the condition to his satisfaction because I have no history with a similar problem. In 11 years of manufacturing panels we have never had a situation such as this. I told Kevin I did not have any advice for him because anything I told him would be a guess.
We have done exactly what Kevin initially asked us to do. We went out and inspected his house. We reported to him what we found and offered advise where we felt we had the knowledge base to do so. That is what Kevin asked us to do. Unfortunatly that has not satisfied Kevin. I have no further advise to offer and our solutions are not what he wants to hear. My only final comment to Keven is the same as the phone message I left him. (I have called and spoken to him about his issues) We have done all that he has asked of us. We manufactured his panels exactly as specified. We came out and inspected his house, reported what we found and offered solutions to fix what we though we could. The fact that I have not perconaly visited Kevins house is of no conciquense. I sent my best field person to inspect and report. That is what Kevin agreed to and was done. |
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