Lockard;

real tree huggers use wood free products

That is a debate that will never end. Each type of SIP(including Steel & FC) has their own advantages and disadvantages. Since it's easier to embed structural lumber into EPS SIPS that's what we use. PU is well suited toward applications like 'skinning', where point loads pretty much don't exist.


That was the original plan, we changed but the website hasn't caught up. It now makes more sense to let the manufacturer do their thing, and we can concentrate on consulting and assembly.

Well GeorgiaTom, I guess you got me with a pretty narrow definition like that. My business uses wood, Oak primarily, to build houses that can last for centuries. We don't use large timbers for 'effect'. We believe in wise use of wood. We don't use wood from clearcuts. Our timbers are select cuts. So by your definition, I am not a tree hugger, just someone that tries to use wood wisely. I am proud to say that here in Missouri, we have approximately 800,000 more acres in hardwood forest than we did in the late 70's. Most of that is due to managed burns, small family farms reverting to forests & carefully controlled cutting.

PanelCrafter You say "PU is well suited toward applications like 'skinning', where point loads pretty much don't exist"? Sorry, but I think you are confused. According to the data I've read, (Oak Ridge National Labs) Polyurethane panels are structurally stronger than EPS, including point loads. I've watched Thermocore of Missouri build panels and embedding structural lumber couldn't be easier. There is no debate. It's been over for a long time. But if you insist, let's debate the issue. Name any way EPS panels are equal to or exceed Polyurethane panels. Lockard

Maybe my experience with 'Indiana' tainted my perceptions. On one project(which we didn't get) meeting the engineer's structural requirements was a big deal. And, when I say 'Point Loads' I'm talking about loads that no SIP can handle w/o additional structure within the panels.


Right off the top, I'd say that wiring EPS panels is much easier. And, field modifications are probably also easier. Roof panel spans might be an issue for some projects. Also, I'm not a big fan of 'Cam-Locks' that some manufacturers use.

Sorry about the 'experience', I've had a few over the years. How about elaborating on the engineering problem. Everything out of the Missouri plant is engineered out the wazoo, I can't believe the one in Indiana isn't the same. I'm talking about point loads the same as you. It's easy to install extra support inside polyurethane panels, Thermocore does it all the time. And unless there are some changes in EPS wire chase technology, polyurethane panels are much easier to wire. How can you beat molded-in boxes & flexible conduit? Thermocore runs a test wire through the conduits to be sure there are no obstructions. I've modified both types of panels. There is no difference as far as I'm concerned. They both suck. Never used a cam lock system. See, no debate!

It all sound great in theory, but it is unlikely that conduits in a poured slab would ever line up with those in a panel

It's really pretty simple GeorgiaTom. Thermocore boxes out an area, about 1 ft. square on commercial jobs, and a little smaller for residential. Then Sparkles the electrician does his thing, you cover the opening and fill with can foam. Bore several 1/4" vent holes, especially near the corners. This method works for Polyurethane and EPS panels. Funny thing is, if done properly in an EPS panel, the cutout would have a higher R-value than the rest of the panel. Yes/No?

Lockard,

Is the box-out at the edge -- if so, why doesn't it weaken the structure?
If not, how do you fish into it?

Do you box out at every point that you need to bring a cable up from below the sill?

Larry

Larry, I'm not sure I understand your question. Thermocore will box out an area according to electrical plan. With Polyurethane SIPS you can span up to 5' wide without even having to use a header, so structurally speaking, a one ft. by one ft. opening does not weaken the structure one bit. Thermocore typically leaves the outside skin uncut. Thermocore uses PVC conduit to make vertical, horizontal and angled runs. They also use different size conduits/connectors for larger cable runs. As far as how many boxes you need, Thermocore will use as many as needed. Keep in mind that usually there are interior walls that can be utilized for wiring also. It's been over 10 years since I've touched an EPS panel. I forget, how do you approach this same problem using the EPS panels?

Larry;

 

Precisely the reason we got away from chases in panels is it is impossible to fish a wire thru later we have found greater flexibility in furring out the steel sips. with the ability to easily move something later

Larry, "it is impossible to fish a wire thru later"? It would seem to me that with careful planning, you shouldn't need to. But I suppose if you really needed to, you could fur OSB SIPS where needed. What do you use for strips? What size? Horizontal or vertical? Do you need to fireblock? How thick do your walls end up being? Pardon my ignorance, but I couldn't find the info on your website.

Excuse me Larry, that last post was meant for Chris at Southern Sips.

Lockard,

Sorry I wasn't more clear, but I'm confused. 

It's the statement that "Thermocore boxes out an area, about 1 ft. square on commercial jobs, and a little smaller for residential" that I'm not following.  An electric box/switch box or such with conduit run between them and the foam injected afterwards would make sense -- that I could understand.  But a common box would be radically smaller than a square foot.  (A square foot sounds more like the size of a sub-panel.)

Why box out a square foot?
How is it boxed out?  (Is the a web site that shows the structure?)

I'd not be bothered by a cut-out in mid panel, but interupting the edge would seem problematic (no, I'm not an engineer):  Does a cut-out that interupts the panel's edge effect it's strength and, as a consequence, the structure's strength?
If a cut out is made frequently -- one for each cable -- at what point does it become a problem?

Very respectfully,
Larry

Wow! Do they really think that they are saving money(or anything) doing that? Wow! The only way that I could see doing that is if you're using raw panels w/o wire chases(I'm assuming that they did this for the whole house, and not just the kitchen).
 

As it lets the inside of the SIP resemble stick construction, it should remove the 5-10% some electricians add for working with SIPs.  That's what their description seems to indicate.  It should certainly increase flexibility for adding outlets or running other wiring in the future.  If you remember the 'sound studio' thread, the airspace between the OSB and the drywall might also help with sound attenuation.

As a possible owner/builder, I like that putting up some 2x2 and remodel boxes would make it easy for me to prep for electrical.  I wonder though whether there would be enough savings on not cutting chases on Thermocore (MO) SIPs to cover the material cost of the 2x2.  I also like that it would make for a slightly thicker wall (deep windows in Pattern Language).

Tim

Probably my clumsy way of describing things. Let me look through our CAD archives and see if I can find a shop drawing of what I am rambling about. One of my joiners does some CAD work for Thermocore. I'll see if I can save the drawing as a .jpg and e-mail it to you, if you want. Just to be clear, we are talking about SIPS on a concrete slab with conduit stubs sticking out of the slab, right? Because chasing SIPS for wiring over a basement or crawlspace is a whole other animal. Really simple.

Lockard,

I'd not registered that it was restricted to on slab construction, but I would like to see how you do it.

Why is it simple from a basment -- don't you still have the issue of aligning the chase with the cable coming up from below?

(Lot of ignorance in my question!)

Very respectfully,
Larry

If the panels sit on the subfloor, the installer starts at a corner, measures where the outlets and/or switch boxes are located. Then they bore a 1 1/2" hole through the sill plate. As the panel is being set, the installer inserts a flexible nipple into the conduit in the bottom of the panel and guides the other end of the nipple into the hole in the plate. The electrician just has to push or pull the wire up from the basement or crawlspace. For our timber frames, we like to run the panels down beside the rimjoist to a treated sill on the foundation. Then Thermocore installs a 4x4 elec. box in the panel below the floor line, then during install, using a holesaw, they bore a 4" hole in the rim joist and that's it. I'll try to post a detail .jpg.