reelgator
New Member
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| 12 Dec 2007 04:17 PM |
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Does anyone have any experience with this type of SIP? Pros and Cons, I live in a hurricane zone, central Florida East Coast and it looks like this is a great solution, I am considering it for my personal house. I have never worked with SIPs before only conventional, some frame but mostly Block. All input is appreciated! They seem like a good organization from my many conversations, I have not actually seen the product yet. here is a link to their site. LINK
Thanks for the help Reelgator |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 12 Dec 2007 04:37 PM |
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Posted By reelgator on 12/12/2007 4:17 PM Does anyone have any experience with this type of SIP? Pros and Cons, I live in a hurricane zone, central Florida East Coast and it looks like this is a great solution, I am considering it for my personal house. I have never worked with SIPs before only conventional, some frame but mostly Block. All input is appreciated! They seem like a good organization from my many conversations, I have not actually seen the product yet. here is a link to their site. LINKThanks for the help Reelgator Reelgator; Yes I have seen their product first hand and personally know their founder Fred Solomon. Platinum is not a true SIP as I know them ... their product is a prefab steel stud wall panel with injected urethane, is slow to assemble and they have not worked out the roof panels yet they have been using wood or steel trusses. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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reelgator
New Member
Posts:5
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| 12 Dec 2007 05:15 PM |
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Chris
Thanks for the response
I admittedly am just learning, but why is it not a SIP? does it not have a fiberglass skin and PUR inside. is it the studs inside that make it not a SIP? and is that a disadvantage?
they did not say anything to me about having to have a trussed roof, so I appreciate that insight.
It looks stronger then OSB and no possibility of Corrosion of metal skin (not sure if metal SIPs have any issues with corrosion as I am close to the beach, as that is another question I have.
why is it slow to assemble is the it the track?
Tim |
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isogroup
New Member
Posts:16
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| 12 Dec 2007 06:51 PM |
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reelgator, have a look at photos the owner of platinumadvanced is shown with builder of house so must be related have a look at roof. LINK
isogroup. |
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Donaldson
New Member
Posts:90
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| 12 Dec 2007 07:58 PM |
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Reelgator,
How close to Sanford, FL do you live? If it is not too far then I would suggest you come buy for a visit. I will be glad to show you my own house as well as a newly put up duplex just around the corner. Both were done with steel sips that I think would work great for the application you want, especially when you see how the roof is attached. The roof system is the most critical for hurricane proofing your home.
Donaldson see pic of my home going up on my web page: ntm.org/don_woody click on photos and then the house album |
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pb4ugo
New Member
Posts:2
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| 12 Dec 2007 09:59 PM |
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What about Combex Westhem ( LINK)? I haven't looked closely at the Platinum ones, but I've liked the Combex ones for the last year I've known about them. PU core between composite skins. |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 12 Dec 2007 10:42 PM |
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Posted By reelgator on 12/12/2007 5:15 PM
I admittedly am just learning, but why is it not a SIP? does it not have a fiberglass skin and PUR inside. is it the studs inside that make it not a SIP? and is that a disadvantage?
SIPs 101
A SIP by any other name…
By Frank Baker
It’s time for a pop quiz. A structural insulated panel is?
1. A Sandwich panel
2. A Stress-Skin
3. A Foam Core Panel
4. A Curtain Wall Panel
5. Insulated
6. Not insulated
7. Structural
8. Non-structural
9. All of the above
10. None of the above
11. Some of the above
Is a “sandwich panel” an SIP?
Today’s SIP is most commonly known as a laminate of oriented strand board (OSB) skins and rigid plastic foam core insulation. This type of panel, correctly referred to as a sandwich panel, is certainly an SIP.
Answer: Yes, always.
Is a stressed-skin panel an SIP?
If the stressed-skin panel does not contain insulation, it could not be correctly referred to as a structural insulated panel, but only as a structural panel or SP. If it were insulated with fiberglass or foam, it could be correctly referred to as an SIP.
Answer: No in most cases, but yes in some.
Is a foam core panel an sip?
Foam core panel is a nonspecific term in reference to the building codes. It has commonly been used in describing a sandwich panel, but confuses the purer definitions APA established years ago. Strictly speaking, a stressed-skin panel could be insulated with rigid foam. If this were done, would it then qualify as a foam core panel? In my opinion, this term should be discarded. Answer: Yes, but let’s not use the term again.
Is an SIP structural?
By their nature SIPs are structural. They are intended to carry loads.
Are SIPs curtain wall panels?
SIPs attached to timber framing are sometimes referred to as curtain wall panels because they close these structures with a curtain-like effect. This is a poor way to refer to an SIP, however, since it implies it’s as insubstantial as a curtain. We expect and need the SIPs used in these applications to be rigid structural members, resisting wind loads and snow loads, and contributing significant racking diaphragm stiffness to the structural framework.
Answer: Yes, always, but let’s avoid the term.
Is an SIP non-structural?
Answer: Never.
I hope this will help us all in the industry to better understand the terms we use, avoid confusion in the marketplace and maybe even avoid liability.
Frank Baker is CEO of Insulspan.
You decide. Also, the steel studs are not well insulated on either the interior or the exterior of the wall, and therefore do not constitute a viable thermal break. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 13 Dec 2007 07:43 AM |
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Posted By reelgator on 12/12/2007 5:15 PM
Chris
Thanks for the response
I admittedly am just learning, but why is it not a SIP? does it not have a fiberglass skin and PUR inside. is it the studs inside that make it not a SIP? and is that a disadvantage?
they did not say anything to me about having to have a trussed roof, so I appreciate that insight.
It looks stronger then OSB and no possibility of Corrosion of metal skin (not sure if metal SIPs have any issues with corrosion as I am close to the beach, as that is another question I have.
why is it slow to assemble is the it the track?
Tim Tim; It is not a SIP because the skin offers no structural value to the component, the skin is a loose fiberglass cloth used to kee the PU from sticking to forms while beiing injected into the studs. It's strange that builders will forget about g-90 galvanized truss strap, clips , etc. exposed to salt environments in conventional construction. But get concerned about galvalume skins ( a better alloy) ? Most quality metal roofs used near salt water are galvalume for corrosion resistance. And the panells usually have a cladding over them anyway Platinum is slow to assemble because of the mutiple flat connection splines and screws @ every slpice. At a recent demonstration in Bradenton another builder asked about the direct application of cemnt stucco to the fiberglass mat, but the rep could not site an approval for doing it that way? I think they are still in the R&D phase on the fly |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 13 Dec 2007 08:01 AM |
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Posted By isogroup on 12/12/2007 6:51 PM reelgator, have a look at photos the owner of platinumadvanced is shown with builder of house so must be related have a look at roof. LINKisogroup. If you look at the day 18 picture you will see that they have added flat strap "X" bracing ......... proof positive they are not even structural in themselves |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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reelgator
New Member
Posts:5
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| 13 Dec 2007 11:37 AM |
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Donaldson
thanks for the link to the pictures, very helpful. did you do it yourself or have a contractor build it, also what did you do for the exterior finish, could not really tell from pictures, is that just paint over the panel? and what is your roof shingle?
thanks for the offer to look at it, I'm about 2 hours away, but may take you up on it if I Can
Reelgator |
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reelgator
New Member
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| 13 Dec 2007 11:53 AM |
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Frank
I did not know the skin on the Platinum product was not structural, I just assumed it was, until Chris mentioned here. Like I said I have not seen the product
reelgator
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reelgator
New Member
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| 13 Dec 2007 12:42 PM |
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Chris
That is very interesting, In thought the skin was structural and added impact strength, so I wonder how it is able to stop a 2x4 from a cannon at 34mph or the 78mph test? I was told it can.
that was the main reason I was looking at the product. In addition to the insulation value
I think that is the concern for us in the hurricane zone, no mater what type of construction the structure can typically be designed to hold down and together for the wind and lateral loads pretty easily to 150mph, you may need some additional bracing or strapping but it can be upgraded if needed but we don't want debris flying through the walls and windows which may cause a the building to collapse or just make it a basic total loss anyway. I really think that is why people go with ICF's ? over a SIP the perception of security
For me it would be easier (cheaper?) just to conventionally frame it as 2x6 and spray foam it. i know the subs that can do that and I am familiar with that type of traditional construction however I am really looking for the flying debris protection and the insulation value combined in one product at a competitive or hopefully better price.
unless you are in a flood area and you need to be concerned about a wave knocking down the building (which is most within a few miles of the gulf coast) and you may need that mass and lateral impact strength from an ICF... as I understand it the Metal SIPs that you work with give the flying storm debris protection we are looking for. right?
as to my worry about corrosion. Here in Melbourne we have a very high concentration of salt in the air, It has to do with the topography of the ocean near our shore, so we get an excess of corrosion. I know of many a straps that has basically melted away within 5 to 10 years. Not sure if they we 90g or less... A tv in a ocean front condo is good for 7 years tops, I have seen then gone in as little as 3 years, I intend to be in this house a long time, that is why I am so concerned. Anyway If the product is a quality metal and finish it can be fine.... it is usually is a nick or a cut that is exposed or dissimilar metals together that starts the corrosion, I would think it can be treated before it is covered up if needed I want to know that It will be good 50 years from now
thanks
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csms
New Member
Posts:3
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| 13 Dec 2007 02:55 PM |
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I've been checking out a company in Central Florida as well. LINK They have sips that have been used in brevard county as well. Might want to check them out. csms |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 13 Dec 2007 04:48 PM |
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Posted By csms on 12/13/2007 2:55 PM I've been checking out a company in Central Florida as well. LINK They have sips that have been used in brevard county as well. Might want to check them out. csms csms; I just checked and they still do not have Florida Product approvals, I heard they were having some issues |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 13 Dec 2007 05:00 PM |
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Posted By reelgator on 12/13/2007 12:42 PM
Chris
That is very interesting, In thought the skin was structural and added impact strength, so I wonder how it is able to stop a 2x4 from a cannon at 34mph or the 78mph test? I was told it can.I have not seen the tests, they may have tested with a cladding or maybe the fiberglass cloth slows down enough not to penetrate
that was the main reason I was looking at the product. In addition to the insulation value
I think that is the concern for us in the hurricane zone, no mater what type of construction the structure can typically be designed to hold down and together for the wind and lateral loads pretty easily to 150mph, you may need some additional bracing or strapping but it can be upgraded if needed but we don't want debris flying through the walls and windows which may cause a the building to collapse or just make it a basic total loss anyway. I really think that is why people go with ICF's ? over a SIP the perception of security The problem with the ICFs is typically they use standard wood trussed sytems with them. Now if someone was doing ICFs with a SIP roof "now your talkin"
For me it would be easier (cheaper?) just to conventionally frame it as 2x6 and spray foam it. i know the subs that can do that and I am familiar with that type of traditional construction however I am really looking for the flying debris protection and the insulation value combined in one product at a competitive or hopefully better price.
unless you are in a flood area and you need to be concerned about a wave knocking down the building (which is most within a few miles of the gulf coast) and you may need that mass and lateral impact strength from an ICF... as I understand it the Metal SIPs that you work with give the flying storm debris protection we are looking for. right?Yes they are impact tested
as to my worry about corrosion. Here in Melbourne we have a very high concentration of salt in the air, It has to do with the topography of the ocean near our shore, so we get an excess of corrosion. I know of many a straps that has basically melted away within 5 to 10 years. Not sure if they we 90g or less... A tv in a ocean front condo is good for 7 years tops, I have seen then gone in as little as 3 years, I intend to be in this house a long time, that is why I am so concerned. Anyway If the product is a quality metal and finish it can be fine.... it is usually is a nick or a cut that is exposed or dissimilar metals together that starts the corrosion, I would think it can be treated before it is covered up if needed I want to know that It will be good 50 years from now.
Don't know about the topo in your area , I can only draw from my experiences on the Gulf Coast. typically the panels are covered, so somehow the salt would need to get behind?
thanks
reelgator |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 13 Dec 2007 05:46 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 12/13/2007 5:00 PM
The problem with the ICFs is typically they use standard wood trussed sytems with them. Now if someone was doing ICFs with a SIP roof "now your talkin" I suppose that if you are paranoid enough, or just want the extra security/protection, that you could always use a concrete roof. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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csms
New Member
Posts:3
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| 14 Dec 2007 11:14 AM |
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So if they don't have Florida Product approval, how is it that they are able to build with their panels? The buildings have to have inspections. I don't understand.
csms
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 14 Dec 2007 08:42 PM |
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Posted By csms on 12/14/2007 11:14 AM
So if they don't have Florida Product approval, how is it that they are able to build with their panels? The buildings have to have inspections. I don't understand.
csms csms; It depends on the building official some will accept independent engineering and others will not. but if they have FL approval there is no issue |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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SIP-ICF Junkie
New Member
Posts:2
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| 13 Jan 2008 08:47 AM |
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The problem with the ICFs is typically they use standard wood trussed sytems with them. Now if someone was doing ICFs with a SIP roof "now your talkin"
I have been talking to someone who is planning to do just this. 8" flat wall ICF with 8" SIP roof. We have not yet worked out the roof to wall connection. Perhaps a custom imbed that would allow us to thru bolt the roof to the walls. As I have built standard construction in Florida if I never see another 'strap' it would be to soon. This home owner says he does not want to build a 50 year house but a 200 year house. Add to the ICF walls and SIP roof he is planning concrete plank floors. 8" cut stone veneer and slate tile roof. 200 years should be easy to achieve.
Engineering all these connections is proving to be complex.
John
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 13 Jan 2008 04:07 PM |
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Posted By SIP-ICF Junkie on 01/13/2008 8:47 AM
The problem with the ICFs is typically they use standard wood trussed sytems with them. Now if someone was doing ICFs with a SIP roof "now your talkin"
I have been talking to someone who is planning to do just this. 8" flat wall ICF with 8" SIP roof. We have not yet worked out the roof to wall connection. Perhaps a custom imbed that would allow us to thru bolt the roof to the walls. As I have built standard construction in Florida if I never see another 'strap' it would be to soon. This home owner says he does not want to build a 50 year house but a 200 year house. Add to the ICF walls and SIP roof he is planning concrete plank floors. 8" cut stone veneer and slate tile roof. 200 years should be easy to achieve.
Engineering all these connections is proving to be complex.
John
John; Not complex at all we recently did a Steel SIPs roof over Logix ICF in Brooksville, Florida the engineer specified a 2x10 PT plate anchor-bolted to ICF poured tie-beam and then Steel SIPs were fasten with LD - sips screws |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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