I took a lot of time and effort to research the best type of SIP for my application and came up with polyurethane  panels. I used ICF for the foundation, and SIPs for the walls and roof.
The wall panels arrived and looked a little rough- a few voids and some pulling away from the studs. They were installed after assurrances from the supplier that it would be easy to 'touch them up" on site. They then started warping, and the drywaller said he couldnj't guaruntee his work if he had to put it on them. The suppliere agreed the wall panes were defecteive and said he would replace them. The first "new" panels that went in were worse thanthe ones they took out! The roof panels were somewhat better, as they had OSB skins on both sides, but, after non-destructive testing usinr infra-red cameras, a number of voids, largest about 2 ft, were disciverd and subsequently filled from the underside.
The supplier agreed that this was not up to their standards, and agreed to cover the cost of conventional stick framing and on-site foaming, the costs to be deducted from his invoice. Because of the delays caused by the panels, all other trades were held back and my building schedule went south by about 4 months. The framers are still working on some areas where the SIPS had to be removed.
The supplier has had the audacity to sue me for the complete cost of his (defective) panels, despite his letter accepting responsibility.
This is not a small town company. They have a 50,00+ sq ft plant, and have many industrial and commercial projects..
It would have been far easier to stick frame and foam on site. 

Beware, even if you are going with a "reputable' supplier.

bob 

Wow! This is certainly a negative start to an otherwise beautiful day (in Sunny California). In over 15 years in the "SIP Biz", I've never heard a story like this (Other than the "Alaska fiasco")

Of course everyone who participates in this forum would be interested in knowing who this manufacturer is. Having said that, you're probably not in a legal position to disclose that information, at least not now.

You indicated that there were "a few voids, and pulling away from the studs" then something to the effect that "the roof panels were somewhat better as they had OSB skins on both sides" So, are you saying that the wall panels did not have OSB on both sides, and that there were studs in the panels? If that's the case, these panels aren't really SIPs.

I'm sure that there will be many more comments in connection with your post. Assuming that you're presenting an accurate portrayal of your "Siperience", I wish you luck with the resulting legal problems. These types of stories certainly don't add to the confidence of those who are considering the use of this great building system in connection with their residential and/or commerecial projects.

You've got me curious as well. Will you tell us the name of the company? Others may have similar experiences with this company that could assist you in your legal endeavors.

How about a metal skinned SIP? I have been designing homes with them for over 10 years. You can tell as soon as you lay eyes on them if there is a void or delamination because as you take a glancing look down the surface of the sheet metal you will see a raised or dome shape directly over the defect. This is known as a dry bond and is characteristic of the metal not being retained to the foam core. Also Metal SIPs do not warp, need no spline to connect one panel to another and are very light for their strength.

As a note to the original post I think the panel industry should teach prospective SIP users including home owners how to spot a defective panel.

I'm still curious about who the company in question is. If they've indeed performed that poorly then the public would be better off knowing who it is.

Could someone clue me in on the "Alaska fiasco", since I live here? Are SIPs not recommended for somewhere up here? I am in the Interior, and have considered SIPs, but am having trouble wrapping my brain around "new" wall ideas. I'm just slow to adapt, but then reading threads like this make me even more cautious. Thanks. j

Juneau, Alaska, 1997. You can google the key words, and read the whole story, or search this forum for posts on the subject as recently as November of 2008. In short, this was a matter of improper installation, there was also something about the wrong type of adhesive/sealant being utilized, but, to me it all fell under the heading of "improper installation"

This story shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not you decide to use SIPs in connection with the construction of your new home, as virtually any structure will fail if the selected materials are improperly installed.

Also, I'd like to suggest that, when you're making your decision regarding one of the most important elements of your new home, the building "envelope" , that you consider how you are going to construct your roof. A SIP "lid" on SIP walls will give an extremely energy efficient, sturdy, and comfortable, home, at a price that is typically competitive with one that is built with conventional materials. (Assuming that you're not looking for the absolute "cheapest " results)

Lastly this "new" system has been around since the 1950's. (Some say 30's or 40's)

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Sipper: Thanks. I will google it and see what the hey. Glad to hear it was human error, and not product malfunction. No; not looking for absolute cheapest, at least in the short run. I am looking for absolute cheapest in the LONG run, which means a btu greedy home. I'd like to see most of the btu's I generate in September just floating around the house till, oh, December or so. Dream on.... My plan at present, because SIPs are new to me, is to build a double 2x4 wall, sandwiching them around 9" fiberglass batts.

Well, jkingel, I usually don't get too involved in these type of threads but, since there may be many others who are on the fence re: SIPs vs Sticks, here goes.

If you're framing this structure yourself, and time is not an issue (little or no $$ value) then your double 2 x 4 framed wall with fiberglass batts (encapsulated and formaldehyde free, I hope) will likely be about 75%+/- as energy efficient as a 6 1/2" SIP wall. I don't know how much money you're going to save (probably 0 if you're paying a framer) depends on whether your staggered studs are at 16" OC or 24" OC, (the latter isn't all that great for drywall and siding attachment, and you'll be looking at the added expense of 2 x 8 plates, king studs, window and door wraps, etc. and still won't have the advantage of the interior sheathing that you'll have with SIPs.)and the quality of framing material (Dry? green? engineered?)

In any event you get my drift. And, you're still talking about walls only, when the roof is the more important element of a building in connection with energy efficiency. I still contend that, in most cases a SIP building envelope (Walls and Roof, "sometime" floors) is competitve with "quality" stick built construction, and has many advantages. It is also rated as "green" by every "green rating" program that I'm aware of, and this website is titled "Green Building Talk"

Again, good luck with whatever you decide to do, but very few people do this more than once, and its good to get it right the first time. (I'm speaking to the "end user" here)

You might rethink that statement. While heat does indeed rise, most of the air infiltration will likely enter through the walls. But, then again, opinions vary...

Valid point, JC, if you're talking about typical "cracker box" 2 x 4 (or even 2 x 6) stick's and fiberglass, numerous small openings, and in some cases diagonal bracing, or strapping, with no exterior sheating, just siding over the studs, etc. etc.

However, this won't be much of a factor with properly installed SIP walls, or a properly installed "double framed stick" wall, for that matter. So, what I'm talking about here, is a wall with little, or no, air infiltration, so roof openings are the only place for your conditioned air to escape.

Also, in hot climates that SIP "lid" will do wonders to keep a building cool er while saving energy. (I know that I'm speaking to the choir here, but these comments are intended for this site's newer visitors who may not have heard all of this before)

By the way, jklingel, how do you "Sandwich 9" fiberglass batts around double 2 x 4 studs"?

Thanks again, all, for the input. It is always good to get other opinions/experiences. This SIP talk may be a moot point for me, as I am not yet sure anyone up here provides them. I'll check. I am going to try to post a jpg of my wall design. It is similar to what I built in 1979, a new difference being the continuous vapor barrier on the OUTside of the inner 2x4. The inner 2x4 wall, though "wasteful", will virtually eliminate VB penetrations at every elect box, etc. I will also be able to run water pipes for outside spigots, DWV vents, whatever, in that space. Too, I have figured out a way to attach the two 2x4 walls to each other (for rigidity; just my gut feeling it would be nice) that will be easy to install and minimize heat conduction through the wall. Sure, this adds a lot of labor in finishing windows/doors, but that is a trade off I am willing to make to have heat loss of 7 btu/hr/sf, not including what will be lost through HRV. I will have to consult w/ an engineer on how to strengthen the floor as the walls do not bear directly over the concrete in the ICFs, but I suspect that something simple like laying a bunch of rebar horizontally under the walls will suffice. (Hope so, anyway.) Any opinions? Shoot. Thanks. j

chuck07;

 

according to Joe Lstiburek, the most air infiltration is at the sill

Hi J in Alaska,

There are at least two panel manufactures supplying home to Alaska. One is Insluspan the company I use with my timberframe homes. The other is Premiere panel in Fife WA who I would only use if your home is very simple. Insulspans drafting and production is far superior and will save you money and time. I believe they are shipping 30% of their west coast home production to Japan if that give an indication of the quality.   The big drag for you will be the shipping cost.  It still may pencil out given all the other factors. Your short building season being one of them. If you need help I travel and have built incredible timber fame/SIP homes all over the west.

By the way all of the SIP manufactures in the West that I know of use EPS foam and OSB sheathing.  The argument for Steel or polyiso foam is a bit of a waste of time on the left coast.

Grant

 

I'll have to look for this Lstiburek guy's book(s). I've heard his name before. Grant: Thanks for the info. I will check around, esp on your site. Sending stuff to the Japanese is a pretty good recommendation; they tend to be pretty picky people. Just look at their vehicles, etc.

You'll find most of his stuff, one article or chapter at a time, at www.buildingscience.com. Click on the Information link.

Dmac: Thanks. Will look.
Grant: Very nice looking timber structures on your site.

I have a few observations about your wall detail.  One: your wall will be 16.5 inches thick.  That to me is wasteful.  Your going to be wasting money building two walls instead of one which means double the lumber and double the framing labor.  Because your wall is so thick your going to have to increase the footprint of your basement to get the same livable sqaure feet.  Which means wasted money excavating and more cost in building a larger basement.  Now that your over budget building a larger basement and framing the wall twice.  I come to the second observation.  The insulation.  The fiberglass insulation you've selected is a nightmare.  Not only do you have to have 16.5" walls to get the desiered performance out of your insulation you have to spend extra time and money making sure that its installed perfectly.  Twice.  Don't get me wrong I love that your trying to build a home that is super insulated I just think that the building industry has better ways of getting you your disired performance without all that work.  If it were my project and I had to have the super insulated shell I would go with a 8" or even a 10" SIP.  Your framer/SIP installer can do the structure/insulation/air barrier in one step.  Not to mention at half the thickness of your proposed double framed wall.  Plus your vapor barrier towards the middle of your wall assembly is rasing a red flag as well.  For a number of reasons.  Just a few thoughts

Andy in Wisconsin

Andy: Thanks for the thoughts, and I have considered those issues many times myself. "Wasteful" is a matter of debate. That wall is cheap, has a very high R, and is not particularly complex to build. So I am building two walls? That does not appreciably affect the time it takes to build a whole house, in my eyes, and my labor is cheap. Hell, I don't even get paid for that matter. Sure, framing doors and windows is a PITA, but I can live w/ it. Once I'm done, I won't be paying much to heat the place, which is a potential biggie. When building this way you are not doubling the lumber cost, either. NO ONE builds with a 2x4 wall here (their is one very expensive wall; I stand corrected). It is all 2x6 or larger; price 2x6s and 2x4s. There is no basement, and it wouldn't matter anyway. A slightly larger house that is cheaper to heat is a plus, not a minus. Wasted money excavating to dig a few inches wider? Do you figure that is measurable? I don't, not when it is fitted in among the excavation for the driveway, land clearing, septic tank, etc. The fiberglass insulation is not a nightmare; it goes fairly quickly, really, as you are just stacking batts to batts in the middle area. That is how, basically, I built in 1980 and I am using about 9 btu/sf, including heating water. I am going to look into SIPs, but the shipping cost has me concerned; shipping up here can be deadly. Also, I don't know anyone who is experienced at installing SIPs, and surely some experience would be critical. As for the SIP being a vapor barrier, I don't know enough about them to comment on whether or not a SIP is a true vapor barrier; just dunno. 6 mil visqueen is. The vapor barrier "towards the middle of the wall" is there for a reason. I will have virtually no vap barr penetrations w/ elect outlets, etc, and it is perfectly legal to have it in there. I'm seeing other designs along that line lately. Too, it is legal to run water pipes in the inner 2x4 wall, and DWV pipes. I know: "Neither run a water pipe in an exterior wall, nor a vent pipe." Then how to you get water to an outside spigot? Through the slab? And deal w/ other little "oopsies" that can arise? Keep the comments coming. I am always open to better ideas, but this wall is the cheapest (per R value) and at the bottom on cheap overall. So, here we go.... Take care. john