House Wrap
Last Post 27 Sep 2010 01:08 PM by Dana1. 13 Replies.
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StonelakeUser is Offline
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19 Sep 2010 05:55 PM
Whats the best house wrap to use over sips?  We have heard that tyvek will deteriorate to nothing in a short time. We have thought about using (ice & water) barrier.   Any thoughts??
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19 Sep 2010 06:56 PM
Posted By Stonelake on 19 Sep 2010 05:55 PM
Whats the best house wrap to use over sips?  We have heard that tyvek will deteriorate to nothing in a short time. We have thought about using (ice & water) barrier.   Any thoughts??
where did you hear that? I think tyvek would be just fine, as would felt, the IWB would be the best

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
Dana1User is Offline
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20 Sep 2010 10:19 AM
The ice & water barrier has VERY low water vapor permeability (0.05 perms), which can result in long term moisture accumulation in the outer skin of the SIP in cold & very-cold climates. In mixed & cooling dominated climates it's probably fine.

Past issues with Tyvek interacting with tannins in some wood products have allegedly been solved. (I've never seen it myself. I have seen Tyvek in service for more than 20 years that looked like it was installed yesterday.) There's nothing wrong with the #15 felt approach either.

Siding type & climate zone can tip the balance in some situations.
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20 Sep 2010 05:33 PM
My carpenter removed some vinyl siding that was less than 10 years old  that had been hail damaged.  He said there was nothing left of the tyvek but strings.......
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20 Sep 2010 07:22 PM
It could have been left unprotected for too long when built. I too have seen tyvek shredded, around water damaged areas but the lettering was faded indicating it was left exposed for awhile. UV damages housewrap, thats why manufacturers specify how long it can be exposed. I've also dealt with damaged tyvek under cedar siding. Here in WI your wrb has to be >5 perms so ice/water is a no go. I like Typar because it's spun like Tyvek yet the perm rating isn't as high as Tyvek. I would avoid weaved wraps or perforated wraps.
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21 Sep 2010 06:12 AM
We plan on using NovaBrik morterless brick siding that breaths .
Dana1User is Offline
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21 Sep 2010 11:59 AM
Posted By greentree on 20 Sep 2010 07:22 PM
It could have been left unprotected for too long when built. I too have seen tyvek shredded, around water damaged areas but the lettering was faded indicating it was left exposed for awhile. UV damages housewrap, thats why manufacturers specify how long it can be exposed. I've also dealt with damaged tyvek under cedar siding. Here in WI your wrb has to be >5 perms so ice/water is a no go. I like Typar because it's spun like Tyvek yet the perm rating isn't as high as Tyvek. I would avoid weaved wraps or perforated wraps.

Typar is rated at 11.7 perms- almost a class-III vapor barrier.  I'd be inclined to use it only under rainscreened cladding (or inherently back-ventilated vinyl siding) or over foam sheathing for stick-built in places like WI or MN.  It should be permeable enough to protect SIPs though, since the perm rating of the SIP itself is quite low, but ventilated cladding would still be a good idea to keep the drying capacity of that outer OSB skin as high as possible. There's a huge difference  in drying capacity between 11 perm Typar and 45+ perm Tyvek or R-Wrap.
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21 Sep 2010 08:48 PM
Dana,
What happens when perms get too high? At what point does a high perm rating become a disadvantage?






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22 Sep 2010 10:58 AM
Posted By greentree on 21 Sep 2010 08:48 PM
Dana,
What happens when perms get too high? At what point does a high perm rating become a disadvantage?






There are no simple answers to these questions, and the specific perm ratings at which problems might occur are both climate-specific and structure specific.

In a stick-built structure with air-leaks or high vapor permeability from the interior into the wall cavities in cold climates where the sheathing will be below the dew point of the interior air for weeks/months on end moisture from the interior is added to the sheathing & cold edge of the framing.  The wintertime vapor pressure of cold dry outdoor air is low, and some of that moisture CAN dry to the exterior even when it's well below freezing but it's slow, and the lower the perm rating of the wrap, the slower that process is.  The amount of ventilation between the siding/cladding & sheathing also affects the drying rate, particularly but not exclusively from wetting events (wind-driven leakage of the siding drips from roof leaks/ice-dams, etc.).  As long as it can dry at the same or faster rate that moisture is getting in there (from whatever source), accumulation of moisture in the wood is limited, every thing is happy. The lower the perm rating of the wrap, the higher the risk.  Rainscreen gaps and inherently back-ventilated siding with large air spaces such as vinyl siding increases the drying rate of structural sheathing dramatically, if unencumbered with a  semi-vapor-retardent wrap.

Old school goods like #15 felt have variable permeability- they're in single digits when the humidity is extremely low, but rises above 50perms as the humidity rises- something of a "smart" system (but not perfect).  Typar stays pretty much ~12 perms, doesn't change much with humidity & temp. It's not bad, unless there is bulk water leaks that get behind the wrap, or high rates of condensation from interior air leaks behind the wrap.  But under rainscreened siding it should dry at least as well as a high-perm wrap behind siding that's tight-to-the wrap & sheathing.  (Another important aspect of rainscreens is that it lowers the infiltration drive into the structure created by wind pressures by shunting some of that pressure around the sheathing envelope.)

SIPs are inherently more air tight than stick built when done right, and the center-foam is relatively low perm, restricting the amount of moisture traveling from the interior to the exterior via vapor diffusion.  But unless the builder was religious about air sealing (including a post-assembly blower-door testing & air-leak remediation step), there will be guaranteed to be air leaks at joints edges, window/door  openings, plumbing & electrical  penetrations, etc., and simply slapping an air-tight housewrap over the exterior doesn't fix the wintertime water accumulation issues.  Preserving a high capacity to dry to the exterior is always the safer bet.

In buildings with insulating foam sheathing between the structural sheathing and the siding, the exterior insulation raises the average temp of the structural timber, limiting the number of hours that the wood is below the dew point of the interior air and thus susceptible.  The more exterior insulation there is (as a fraction of the total R), the warmer the wood stays, and the lower the overall risk.  At some point (which varies with specific climate) the risk of accumulating enough water in the wood to cause problems drops to zero with increasing exterior R factor, at which point the drying capacity toward the exterior becomes irrelevant.

These are fundamentally cold climate zone issues- the warmer the climate, the less of a concern there is, since there are longer periods of reasonable drying conditions. If the average outdoor temp (not average daily low or high, but average overall) of your coldest winter month is above 35F you can pretty much forget about it, since even the outdoors will be above the dew point of the conditioned space air roughly half the time- any small amount of moisture that might condense on the wood overnight disappears like the morning dew as the day warms up.  (The dew point of 68F 30% RH air is ~37F- if you keep the place warmer & more humid than that, adjust the average hazard temp upward.)  Some water gets wicked into the wood during the colder spells,  but there is sufficient drying time that it doesn't accumulate to damaging levels.  In a two week cold snap the moisture accumulation is rarely more than the wood itself can buffer and release during warmer temps without damage.  But with average winter temps well below 35F that moisture stick around in the wood, absorbing enough water that might not dry until May unless the wall stackup limits the amount of moisture reaching the colder wood (with air-tight & vapor retardent interiors) and/or the drying capacity toward the exterior is maximized (high perm wrap & rainscreen gaps.)

Drier is always better, and on an assembly that must dry toward the exterior, higher perm layers on the exterior is usually a better choice than lower perm.

And in any stackup, interior air-tightness is more important than perm rating of the wrap (or the interior!), since air transported moisture is far more likely to create moisture transport rates high enough to cause problems than vapor diffusion from the interior.   SIPs are easy to make air tight, but SIP structures are not inherently hermetically sealed, nor can they be counted on to remain as air tight as on day 1 for the next 50 years.  Designing & building to be more resiliant to faults is always a good idea, even when striving to build perfectly.

There are methods of modeling all of this (WUFI, etc) but the general trends are clear.
jonrUser is Offline
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22 Sep 2010 11:29 AM
The only thing I would add is that air transported/driven moisture only flows if there is a pressure differential to cause it. So attention to that may have a significant effect - ie, a slightly negative (common where there are flues and exhaust vents) or neutral everywhere interior pressure in the Winter may be beneficial. But during wind driven rain, a negative pressure may pull rain water into the walls (if there is no air gap).
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23 Sep 2010 12:23 PM
We recommend Perma-R, which private labels for a lot of building material suppliers. It is tough and cheaper than Tyvek. To find a local suppler, call them. http://www.permarproducts.com/

Steve
GrandCountySIPs.com
Steve Etten
Dana1User is Offline
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23 Sep 2010 01:06 PM
FWIW, Perma-R housewrap is similar to Typar in terms of vapor permeability (12-15 perms, according to their spec.) with only ~1/4 the drying capacity of high-perm wraps.

http://www.permarproducts.com/literature_logos/housewrap/hw_tech.pdf
RsipgeoUser is Offline
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27 Sep 2010 11:29 AM
WHat about hardi wrap?
Dana1User is Offline
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27 Sep 2010 01:08 PM
http://www.ebuild.com/ImgRepos%5CBrochure_James%20Hardie_Hardiewrap_2008.pdf_08182008_121035%5CBrochure_James%20Hardie_Hardiewrap_2008.pdf
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