Hello, I'm looking for SIP suppliers (metal preferably). My project is located in El Centro, CA in the Imperial Valley.  (2 hours Inland from San Diego located 40 miles from the AZ Border). The nearest manufacturer that I found is Pbssips in Phoenix, but they are OSB. Can you guys point me towards other SIP suppliers/manufacturers/distributors that I should consider ?  Thank You.

Kingspan - Modesto, CA MBCI - Atwater, CA

Thanks Torben, I will check them out. Happy Holidays.

I am a Distributor for PBS sips in San Diego. To my knowledge, metal skin sips don't have seismic testing for Southern California.

www.SanDiegoSIPS.com

ferber,

Gefco, LLC is the residential dealer for Kingspan. I doubt Kingspan will deal with a home owner for the quantities required. Go to gefcollc.com. Gefco might be able to have it shipped from that CA location.

Ferber;

 I would PM Torben on the forum regarding the performance with gefco llc

Gefco is the residential dealer for Kingspan according to Gefco.  Apparently Kingspan (a global company) is unaware of the "fact" that Gefco (aka Jerry working out of his backyard) is their residential dealer.

I did have the misfortune of purchasing some panels through Gefco.  Here is a photo of one of them:


Here are significantly better ones I obtained directly through Kingspan:


Here is Kingspan-Deland's preferred shipper at my site:

It was refreshing to have the panels delivered on time, not having the price increased at the last minute, not having the order significantly shorted, nor losing panels to miscuts, damage, etc.

There are a variety of ways to obtain panels from Kingspan.  MBCI is another metal-polyiso SIP manufacturer I've had very good experience with more recently.  Both have relative strengths and weaknesses depending on what you are doing and where.  Either one would probably require engineering, particularly for California.  MBCI recently obtained Florida product approval.  I've not checked what cert's. they currently have for California.  Both manufacturers are more used to providing commercial cladding than residential SIPS, however all the test data is available and compares well with any other metal SIP panel.

Torben;

Thanks for having the guts to post the picture and expose Gefco for who they really are, "seconds" are one thing,  but much of the  the product they are selling is junk! You are not the only one they have taken atvantage of and they are the type that gives the industry a bad name.

We also sell "seconds" but they have slight imperfections and are all structurally sound

Buying "second" grade panels definitely has its issues. One has to ask the supplier exactly what one is getting. Here are some questions to ask. What are the defects? Are the defects only in the painted surfaces? Do the panel to panel joints engage properly? Are there any voids in the foam core? Are the panels warped in any way? Are the steel skins corroded in any way? Are the panels thicker or thinner than spec? Are the panels uniform in thickness? Do the panels all have the same gauge skins? Do the panels all have the same embossing? And most importantly. Are the panels delaminated in any way?

Second grade panels can be used successfully and significantly reduce costs, but they should only be used by an experienced metal SIP builder or only have very minor defects.

JeffD;

a little backpeddling? I guess "Gefco" is not the the Kingspan residential dealer? I would think Kingspan's general counsel should send a cease and desist.

"seconds" in my mind are paint finish defects or order cancellations and nothing in the way of structural defects, otherwise the  "S" needs to be reimoved from SIPs

Jeff, I find your 'questions to ask a supplier' somewhat disingenuous in regard to gefco as most of these questions were asked and answered quite "inaccurately". I previously tried to more gently steer you away from promoting them. I don't know if you have some financial incentive to push their product but it does not reflect well on you. I believe it was a gefco install that had rain leaking in through the panel joints. I do not know if this was more the result of substandard panels or because the kingspan detail for sealing between panels was not used. Gefco previously expressed to me that sealing the joint was unnecessary (perhaps it was not called for in the drawings?). The only thing the results clearly indicate is that using gefco is not a good experience. Just to clarify none of the panels I have pictured in my previous post are new. The ones I obtained directly look new but they in fact cost me less than half ($ per square foot) than the gefco ones (and the kingspan delivery actually included all that was purchased). I think Kingspan makes a very good product and has no idea how poorly gefco can make them look. Quite frankly residential is not their area of interest and gefco signs a disclaimer for kingspan stating they understand that seconds carry no warranties. Gefco does not inform their customer about this disclaimer when collecting their money. Once they have the money they have little incentive to obtain good panels.

Torben,
Being a 'newbie' to panels and not a builder you should of and could of bought new panels from Gefco, but an opportunity presented itself that was hard to pass up. A source for 'second quality' metal SIPs at a substantial cost reduction. As a budget minded consumer how could you resist. Metal SIPs are the 'Mercedes Benz' of the SIP industry. To continue the analogy, you couldn't afford a new Mercedes Benz with all its assurances, you could however, afford a 'secondhand' Mercedes. Second hand cars have their issues, but someone knowledgeable about cars can buy one with confidence. To a novice, any perceived problem is a crisis, but to the experienced, it’s just another day on the job. Gefco shouldn’t have dealt directly with a homeowner with this kind of a product. But times are tough these days and it’s hard to pass up a sale. Knowledgeable metal SIP contractors make this grade of panel work. They have the ability to assay the panels and the knowledge to successfully build with them at an affordable price point. These panels are ideal for housing because unlike an industrial cooler building of which they were originally intended, they get covered up with interior and exterior finishes, which conceal their defects. They are a variable commodity and are purchased by a distributer in large quantities. Not every panel is a keeper, but the lower price reflects this. I guess once you knew where these panels came from, you went around Gefco and somehow got the manufacturer to sell to you direct. Well done. People are trying to make a living here, but I guess it's every man for himself. 

Simon, I've been an engineer for over 15 years (even before that I worked in construction). I'm a registered engineer in several states, Florida building code qualified and LEED certified. I'm fairly well able to structurally assess a building product -my seal makes me legally liable (It is more than the casual opinion of a draftsman or contractor). You car analogy is not accurate since a car does not have to be bought sight unseen. When it became apparent the panels were not in the condition promised, that the quantity paid for was significantly shorted, and I was getting stories about additional price increases for a needed second order (I had already been hit with a big last minute price increase on the intial order) I told Jerry I was at the tipping point with all the price increases. At this point I was beginning to question everything and I wanted to verify installation details and product info (especially since I had planned on using Gefco for assembling the shell) so I scheduled a visit to Kingspan. The supplier price increases were a scam and some significant assembly details were wrong. While I was at Kingspan I received an unsolicited offer to sell to me directly. After I declined the inflated second order and asked for a refund of the missing panels (that had been paid for) Gefco refused to deliver the any of the purchased panels and began demanding more money or they would send the panels elsewhere. I met with a lawyer to pursue a lawsuit and sent out demand letters. After checking county records and finding the list of lawsuits and foreclosure notices I realized Gefco was essentially judgement proof. The demand letter at least produced the offer to come pick up the panels. Unfortunately Kingspan's shipper declined to send one of their trucks to Gefco after all the problems they had with their last delivery there. This has cost me significantly in money, time and effort and as such when this comes up on this board I will try to help others avoid experiencing the same problem. I understand that everyone is trying to make a living right now but that does not make me any more tolerant of scams. I can only guess you and/or Jeff have a financial interest in plugging Gefco as a dealer for Kingspan. The refererals on this board for Gefco are inaccurate as to Gefco's relationship with Kingspan and give the impression that Gefco is more reputable than I believe to be accurate. In addition I think Kingspan makes a good product and Gefco unfairly hurts their reputation.

Torben,

Unfortunately yours is not an isolated case with Gefco, it seems to be a common occurance with material shortages and last minute price increases. Gefco may be judgement proof, but in your instance it may be fraudulent. Where fraud is involved an owner cannot hide behind the corporate veil and can be personally liable. I am not sure if Jerry has any net worth , but I am pretty sure his partner Eric does.

Good Afternoon Everyone, Thanks for the replies and the additional information. Based on the replies, I will stay away from factory seconds regardless of the price.

Shane

Can anyone else confirm that Steel Sips do not meet the California Building Code Requirements? Thanks.

Posted By ferber on 10 Jan 2011 05:13 PM
Can anyone else confirm that Steel Sips do not meet the California Building Code Requirements? Thanks.

Thats nonsense..................... I guess there are no cold storage facilities in California?

Chris, I agree it doesnt make sense, I was just asking based on the above comment " metal skin sips don't have seismic testing for Southern California."

I will continue to look into it.

Chris

Are there code reports that approve steel sips in seismic zone D.

Chris

I am still waiting to see your code reports. Yes we have cold storage in Southern California, but they are inside a structurally sufficient warehouse and not subject to seismic requirements that are required for residential construction. If you have Information that I should know about please let me know, otherwise don't comment on what you don't know about.

Thanks