Like 90% of first time posters I am considering using SIPS to build a medium sized house. I am in the Sacramento area of northern california home to the most obstructionist building department on the planet. Could someone please suggest a manufacturer and or designer familiar with nor-cal proclivities. I have tried Thermasave but they have not returned any of my calls or emails. Thank you in advance, Griz

Have not seen any later posts... have you heard from ThermaSave or found others. I am also in Bay Area and been researching SIPs and Open Panel as well. Would love to learn more of what you found as our Title 24 and climate, costs, etc. are very unique and can impact the real costs of SIP or other building technologies.

I have found that the T-clear company west coast rep is an architect in Sacramento. T-Clear is somewhere in the midwest, I forget exactly where at this point but if this goes forward there will be some fairly substantial transportation costs.

I never did hear from Thermasave and gave up trying to get information from them.

I contacted All Weather panels in Vacaville and actually toured their plant. Their sales rep must be independently wealthy as getting him to return emails or phone calls is very trying. In desperation I contacted Kingspan in Modesto. They have almost an identical product but their sales rep is much more receptive. The All-Weather / Kingspan panels are not true SIPs panels, they are wall or roofing systems that require trusses. They need horizontal supports at 4 foot intervals. They are both are a finished roof when all is said and done and APPEAR to be very easy to apply. This should mean that despite their higher original cost they should be cost competitive when application costs are taken into account. The problem I have encountered is that most installers do not appear to be interested in residential work, even a large project such as mine. I don't know why. It may be related to insurance.

T-Clear has just (within the last month) been approved for roofing applications I don't know about floors. I should phone them to find out. They will put OSB on one side of the panel if you want to use it for roofing. I personally am trying to get away from wood as much as possible. I doubt that their panels would be able to compete with the All-Weather / Kingspan system from a cost perspective. If you wanted a clear span cathedral ceiling it may be worth it. The fiber cement side can be left unfinished, painted or have stucco applied directly to it so that may be a consideration. T-Clear has quoted me in the region of $7 a square foot. I suspect it will be at least a dollar more by the time transportation is added in.

On more than 5000 sq feet All weather and Kingspan quote around $6.50 for panels, trim, gutters, screws, engineering etc.

I haven't looked at open panel, or at least I don't think I have. I talked with a fellow in LA who makes panels consisting of steel studs with styrofoam, if that is what you are referring. This is getting away from my desire to off-site as much production as possible but I will probably have him bid on things anyway.

I have also spoken with a fellow whose name is Gary Dryer. He runs a steel truss company in Washington. He is actually located in Hawaii and runs the company remotely. His costs are slightly higher than local wood suppliers but in situations such as mine where the trusses can be more widely spaced he may end up competitive and I am willing to pay a small premium to avoid wood.

That is about all the information I have at the moment. I hope that helps. Let me know if there is anything more that I can help with or conversely if you have any information that you think would be useful to me.
regards Griz.

Griz,

Thanks for all the info. But I am a bit confused. I had reviewed AW and KS in the past and my impression was there were primarily supplie. rs for commercial and industrial projects, not residential as I am building. If they do residential, it is certainly not their prime business and my concern is the level of support as they make much more $$$ on a C&I projects. ThermaSave... I consider them dead. T-Clear showed only low R-Value as standard so not sure how tight of an envelope. I do like the ideas getting finished walls, but then only if you get the exact finish you want.

A few of the local or West Coast mfg I am in the process of evaluating include: FBS SYSTEM, PACIFIC MODERN HOMES,PREMIER SIPS, plus some others that are not as local. I am trying to create a spread sheet so I can analyze them on a more Apples to Apples... I cannot find any independent 3rd party who has done a comprehensive comparison between either SIP companies or open panel companies.

Marc

Marc, I think you can count on the level of support approaching zero. That being said if the product is better, it is better. They seem quite willing to sell it to anyone with the appropriate bank balance, it is the installers I am having trouble with. I am somewhat obsessed with minimizing the amount of wood in my build. If I can't make the fiber cement sips work I will probably go with steel studding and fibre cement sheathing but everything depends on price. I would dearly love to see that spreadsheet when you get it together. Take care, griz

Griz, will be happy to share... but my direction is more on wood vs concrete, although I plan to price and compare a few non-wood as well. Installing is not the only issue... you are building a custom home so you need all systems to work together. How are the aesthetics of homes build with either of the panel systems. Why are you anti-wood?


Since this is usually a family's largest investment one of my major criterion is being able to see and talk directly with actual home owners and builders who have used the system... I come from tech and love innovation, but when in comes to the actual envelope of my home... I don't want to experiment... I can change a heat pump or other system but changing the envelope is not the same.

by the way, where in the B.A. will you be building, I bought a couple of acres of Watsonsville Rd in Gilroy, although it is under Santa Clara County. As you know Title 24 is getting stricter and stricter each year... most Californians do know that every new home built from 2020 must be NET ZERO and home resales must do the energy upgrades!



Marc

Marc,
It may surprise you to know that far from being anti-wood I love the stuff BUT that puts me in the same league as termites and dry-rot but that is not the real reason for my aversion to building with it in Sacramento. I have renovated about 10 houses here and in the older homes the old clear studs are for the most part straight and hard. Everything that has been put in place in the last twenty years is so twisted and full of knots that walls are warping and screws are popping out of the sheetrock in less than 5 years. I come from the north where we would burn better would than is generally available here.
Additionally I am trying to offsite as much of the construction as possible as I have much more faith in a computer controlled laser cutter than I do in a hung over framer trying to finish up as fast as possible.
For the most part I don't consider anything I am doing to be particularly experimental. I think the idea of talking to others that have used the products is a terrific idea. Personally I rather like the industrial look but my wife doesn't so that ends that discussion.
As far as the envelope is concerned you raise a valid point. My understanding is that it is considered "tight" due to the foam to foam connection but that is worth checking to be sure. The R Value that T-clear is quoting is in the region of 24 for the support walls. The roof panels can be anything you want depending on the thickness.

I am not sure what you are referring to with the abbreviation B.A. but let me know and I will answer as best I can.

By the way when you say that you are thinking of concrete are you considering aerated/autoclaved blocks. The downside is that the only company I know of is in Florida, but they have been in use in Europe for at least 50 years and are generally regarded as the bees knees.

Is your property on the hills along Watsonville Rd. It looks like a beautiful area.

regards Griz

Posted By Grizwald on 29 May 2013 12:11 AM

  Everything that has been put in place in the last twenty years is so twisted and full of knots that walls are warping and screws are popping out of the sheetrock in less than 5 years. I come from the north where we would burn better would than is generally available here.
Additionally I am trying to offsite as much of the construction as possible as I have much more faith in a computer controlled laser cutter than I do in a hung over framer trying to finish up as fast as possible.

Talk about twisted and bowed lumber. Here is a 4x4 post that was out back at Lowe's. As you can see, it has seen better days.


Have you looked at Steel SIPs as an alternative?

I did look at steel sips and I like them a lot particularly the weight. There is a fellow on this forum out of Florida who is very helpful and smart enough to realize that the questions he answers here is some of the best advertising anyone could have. If the steel sips manufacturers were smart enough to put standing seams on their product I would be on it like a rash. In fact if anyone knows of a steel sip manufacturer that does this please let me know. As it stands, unless your building a shed and don't care about the look you have to cover a perfectly good roof with something else. Actually it is worse than that because you have to punch a bunch of holes in it. And while I am ranting I have been to panel manufacturers and it would be dead simple to do.

Posted By Grizwald on 29 May 2013 10:57 AM
I did look at steel sips and I like them a lot particularly the weight. There is a fellow on this forum out of Florida who is very helpful and smart enough to realize that the questions he answers here is some of the best advertising anyone could have. If the steel sips manufacturers were smart enough to put standing seams on their product I would be on it like a rash. In fact if anyone knows of a steel sip manufacturer that does this please let me know. As it stands, unless your building a shed and don't care about the look you have to cover a perfectly good roof with something else. Actually it is worse than that because you have to punch a bunch of holes in it. And while I am ranting I have been to panel manufacturers and it would be dead simple to do.

Griz, Don't think that it's not been talked about alot!
However, it would require retooling a continous line Metal SIP roll forming and bonding line ($ 2 million) ,
it all sounds good intil you get to the valleys, I have seen not good details on how to make a 6" - 12" valley groove water tight
then think about trying to successfully ship panels with 1-1/2" ribs, stacking 6 high without damaging them,
then think about even if you got them to the jobsite OK and the forklift driver flattens the ribs when off loading or the installers drop one.
and the cost to send one or two panels on a dedicated truck, because common carrier is out of the question , they will be guaranteed to get damaged again.
until someone is ready to place a 10-20 millinon sq.ft. order, I really don't see anyone taking the risk
Better to just do as a seperate cladding so that when a tree limb goes thru the roof 3 years later, your just replacing a few panels instead of reconstruction the whole roof
just my opinion

Posted By Grizwald on 29 May 2013 10:57 AM
Actually it is worse than that because you have to punch a bunch of holes in it.

What structural system doesn't get holes in it?

Kingspan (and a number of other manufacturers) already make a standing seam panel. Kingspan calls their product KingZip. In my opinion the spacing is too wide for residential (too industrial looking). Even if the dimensions were more residential I would still go with a separate standing seam roof. I want my building envelope (particularly roof) separate from the roofing. I want to be able to replace a dented/damaged piece of standing seam without opening the building envelope. Besides it ended up being cheaper for me to do it this way.

Posted By Grizwald on 28 May 2013 06:42 PM
I have found that the T-clear company west coast rep is an architect in Sacramento. T-Clear is somewhere in the midwest, I forget exactly where at this point but if this goes forward there will be some fairly substantial transportation costs.

I never did hear from Thermasave and gave up trying to get information from them.

I contacted All Weather panels in Vacaville and actually toured their plant. Their sales rep must be independently wealthy as getting him to return emails or phone calls is very trying. In desperation I contacted Kingspan in Modesto. They have almost an identical product but their sales rep is much more receptive. The All-Weather / Kingspan panels are not true SIPs panels, they are wall or roofing systems that require trusses. They need horizontal supports at 4 foot intervals. They are both are a finished roof when all is said and done and APPEAR to be very easy to apply. This should mean that despite their higher original cost they should be cost competitive when application costs are taken into account. The problem I have encountered is that most installers do not appear to be interested in residential work, even a large project such as mine. I don't know why. It may be related to insurance.

T-Clear has just (within the last month) been approved for roofing applications I don't know about floors. I should phone them to find out. They will put OSB on one side of the panel if you want to use it for roofing. I personally am trying to get away from wood as much as possible. I doubt that their panels would be able to compete with the All-Weather / Kingspan system from a cost perspective. If you wanted a clear span cathedral ceiling it may be worth it. The fiber cement side can be left unfinished, painted or have stucco applied directly to it so that may be a consideration. T-Clear has quoted me in the region of $7 a square foot. I suspect it will be at least a dollar more by the time transportation is added in.

On more than 5000 sq feet All weather and Kingspan quote around $6.50 for panels, trim, gutters, screws, engineering etc.

I haven't looked at open panel, or at least I don't think I have. I talked with a fellow in LA who makes panels consisting of steel studs with styrofoam, if that is what you are referring. This is getting away from my desire to off-site as much production as possible but I will probably have him bid on things anyway.

I have also spoken with a fellow whose name is Gary Dryer. He runs a steel truss company in Washington. He is actually located in Hawaii and runs the company remotely. His costs are slightly higher than local wood suppliers but in situations such as mine where the trusses can be more widely spaced he may end up competitive and I am willing to pay a small premium to avoid wood.

That is about all the information I have at the moment. I hope that helps. Let me know if there is anything more that I can help with or conversely if you have any information that you think would be useful to me.
regards Griz.

Kingspan panels will definitely function as a SIP even if they are not marketed that way. Check the test data and you will find out they are as strong as any similar metal SIP.

Torrben,
Kinsspan tells me their panels need to be supported with horizontal supports every 4 ft. If they could function as a 20 ft sip it would make me very happy. Personally I am fine with the 20 inch standing seem. In terms of production I think kimgspan and all weather make them by changing out a single roller on their line and don't seem to have any significant problems with shipping. I am starring at a sample piece that I got from all weather. I did tour their factory and I think they bundle their product with foam pieces between each one but I am not sure.
However they do it, it would seem that steel SIPs manufacturers could do the same.
Chris, I agree that most roof systems have holes punched through them. By the way you are the smart guy in Florida that I referred to earlier. The thing that annoys me about the steel SIPs if they form a perfectly good roof that one then has to bugger up to bow to current tastes.

Torban. Meant to ask before, did you put a standing seem metal roof on top of SIPs or on a standard roof. Here I am getting quotes in the nature of 8 to 9 dollars a square foot. Did you install it yourself? How much did it cost you.

By the way I agree completely with the problem of valleys. Both kngspan and all weather have the same kluge fit way of doing it which I don't like. I would think that either co would be better off to make some specialized valley but to the best of my knowledge they don't.

I used Kingspan standard 6-inch panels for the roof. That's covered with a layer of high temp peel & stick and standing seam. I used B-Panels (ranged from $2.50 to $4/s.f. for the panels, around $4/s.f. for the rest). I have a simple gable roof that spans about 14 feet from ridge to outside walls (no trusses). I installed everything myself (with a couple of guys helping me). None of us had ever done this before so I'm relatively pleased with the results. Probably the only detail I have in accordance with Kingspan is butyl caulk between all my panels. I wanted to ensure a very tight envelope and it seemed an easy way to do so.

Kingspan's standing seam panels IMO are not suitable for residential applications because of the way the ribbed panel ends must have a special configuration of closure and gutter that is too complex and cost prohibitive for most middle class homes. If you cobble a system together with their gutter and trim pieces the home will look like a warehouse disguised as a home. Ask to see a detail for an application with an overhang of 12" or more I do not think there is one.

I am confused. Jeff is saying the kingspan panels are not suitable for residential immediately following the post from Torben describing how he has used the Kingstown panels on his house. Is it just the standing seam that is inappropriate for residential or is it all king span panels? While I haven't seen kingspan panels on a residential building I have seen all weather and they look very nice. All weather provides guttering and end pieces so I assume kingspan does as well.

Kingspan does NOT do residential.

In addition the Kingspan panel is NOT really a SIP. Per their website:

"An insulated metal panel (IMP) is composed of an insulated core material typically polyisocyanurate foamed in place between two metal pre-coated skins utilizing an interlocking joint for a weather-tight system with a high r-value and superior airtightness."

So the panel is NOT a STRUCTURALLY insulated panel but merely an insulated metal panel. So it is not a real SIP. Hence the reason why the panels need to be supported with horizontal supports every 4 ft.

Kingspan does not do residential or commercial. They just do panels (not installation). If you think the panels are not structural then you have not reviewed their test data. The 4ft on center is when attached to girts using their clip system. This is equivalent to 3.5 feet on center SIP bolts. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Posted By Torben on 01 Jun 2013 10:36 PM
Kingspan does not do residential or commercial. They just do panels (not installation). If you think the panels are not structural then you have not reviewed their test data. The 4ft on center is when attached to girts using their clip system. This is equivalent to 3.5 feet on center SIP bolts. You're comparing apples to oranges.

I am going by what Kingspan has stated both online on their website and over the phone. They were very explicit in stating that their panels were NOT a Structurally Insulated Panel but merely an Insulated Panel. Kingspan will tell you that they do not consider their panels SIPs.

What I meant by residential is that when you call Kingspan and advise them that you are doing a residential project, they were not interested. They deal in large commercial projects, someones 3,000 sqft home doesn't do anything for them.

A metal SIP can span 25+ feet without supports and have 24" overhangs. A panel like those that Chris Kavala sells are structural and therefore it is truly a SIP.