Shieldy
New Member
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| 02 Jun 2015 03:12 PM |
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Looking at building near a highway so will likely be using ICFs for the superior noise performance. My questions are about the options for doing the roof (simplest design possible).
ICF roof - Seems very costly.
Traditional roof with spray foam - Easiest?
SIPs - Benefit of finished roof, more costly than traditional. Would a metal-polyurethane SIPs roof still require a crane to install?
From research it seems SIPs can have a slightly worse noise performance than traditional stick building. How important is sound proofing on the roof; how much noise would enter through the roof vs the walls? How hard (and at what cost) would sound proofing be for the SIP; what about for traditional?
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 02 Jun 2015 04:26 PM |
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You need lots of mass - concrete is best, thick cellulose and multiple layers of wallboard is next best. Don't pay much attention to STC ratings - you care about low frequency sounds and STC isn't weighted for that. Windows are likely to be your weak point. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 02 Jun 2015 07:50 PM |
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Posted By Shieldy on 02 Jun 2015 03:12 PM
Looking at building near a highway so will likely be using ICFs for the superior noise performance. My questions are about the options for doing the roof (simplest design possible).
ICF roof - Seems very costly.
Traditional roof with spray foam - Easiest?
SIPs - Benefit of finished roof, more costly than traditional. Would a metal-polyurethane SIPs roof still require a crane to install?
From research it seems SIPs can have a slightly worse noise performance than traditional stick building. How important is sound proofing on the roof; how much noise would enter through the roof vs the walls? How hard (and at what cost) would sound proofing be for the SIP; what about for traditional?
As per Wiki: Sound Transmission Class (or STC) is an integer rating of how well a building partition attenuates airborne sound.
In the USA, it is widely used to rate interior partitions,
ceilings/floors, doors, windows and exterior wall configurations (see ASTM International Classification E413 and E90). Outside the USA, the Sound Reduction Index (SRI) ISO
index or its related indices are used. These are currently (2012)
defined in the ISO - 140 series of standards (under revision).
The STC rating figure very roughly reflects the decibel reduction in noise that a partition can provide.
The higher the STC#, the better the sound reduction (avg shown):
SIP roof = STC 23 Concrete Roof = STC 50 Dual Pane Windows = STC 23 Triple Pane Windows = STC 36 Stick Frame Truss Roof (attic with 12" + insulation at ceiling level) = STC 35-40
Best way to reduce sound is through mass (concrete or drywall) and decoupling the panels (using sound resilient clips that decouple). |
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kited
New Member
Posts:37
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| 02 Jun 2015 09:36 PM |
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Don't pay much attention to STC ratings - you care about low frequency sounds. I was just reading this: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/ And it concurs with Jon. In a nutshell they aim for wide airspaces and Bear's decoupling. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 Jun 2015 01:20 AM |
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Posted By kited on 02 Jun 2015 09:36 PM
I was just reading this:
http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/
And it concurs with Jon. In a nutshell they aim for wide airspaces and Bear's decoupling.
As per the web article you referenced. It states: In short, STC gives you a rough idea how much sound a wall, for example,
might stop. STC, Sound Transmission Class, is the most common sound
reduction measurement in use. As common as this measurement is, it is
quite limited and should not be totally relied upon for real world
soundproofing expectations.Besides STC what rating system do you recommend for below 125Hz that could be referenced? The website recommends the decoupling resilient sound clips that utilize hat channels. The sound clips would not be able to be securely attached to light weight gauge steel on a ceiling with 5/8" drywall attached to it. You would probably have to double up on the sound clip spacing to spread the load. |
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Jelly
Veteran Member
Posts:1017
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| 03 Jun 2015 09:56 AM |
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Posted By Lbear on 03 Jun 2015 01:20 AM
...The sound clips would not be able to be securely attached to light weight gauge steel on a ceiling with 5/8" drywall attached to it...
Why do you suggest that clips couldn't be attached to light gauge steel? |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 03 Jun 2015 10:15 AM |
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It might be interesting to explore creating a tall earth berm between you and the highway.
The way sound works, there is little sense in making one element better while there is a weak link elsewhere. Ie, concrete walls/roof won't add much over 12" cellulose + double wallboard if you have windows facing the highway. Maybe with wide gap, laminated windows. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 Jun 2015 02:24 PM |
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Posted By Jelly on 03 Jun 2015 09:56 AM
Posted By Lbear on 03 Jun 2015 01:20 AM
...The sound clips would not be able to be securely attached to light weight gauge steel on a ceiling with 5/8" drywall attached to it...
Why do you suggest that clips couldn't be attached to light gauge steel?
In the commercial buildings that I am familiar with, the minimum gauge of lightweight steel studs is 25 gauge. Even if you go to Home Depot the thinnest gauge steel studs they sell is 25 gauge. You can't even find 26 gauge studs at HD. With 26 gauge sheet metal the pullout strength of a screw would be around 120-160 lbs depending on the screw you use and how you install it. Plus it is REALLY easy to strip out 26 gauge steel. When you run a coarse threaded screw into 26 gauge steel, you can pretty much forget about trying to back it out if you put it in the wrong place. That screw has to remain there because it cannot be backed out since there isn't enough thread cuts into the thin steel to be able to reverse the screw. With those clips and 5/8" drywall on a ceiling, it will require 200 lbs per attachment point. Since 26 gauge steel is around 120-160 lbs of pullout, it would not be a wise thing to do. Therefore more attachment clips would have to be used to spread the load and offset the light 26 gauge steel. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 03 Jun 2015 05:41 PM |
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Posted By Lbear on 03 Jun 2015 02:24 PM
Posted By Jelly on 03 Jun 2015 09:56 AM
Posted By Lbear on 03 Jun 2015 01:20 AM
...The sound clips would not be able to be securely attached to light weight gauge steel on a ceiling with 5/8" drywall attached to it...
Why do you suggest that clips couldn't be attached to light gauge steel?
In the commercial buildings that I am familiar with, the minimum gauge of lightweight steel studs is 25 gauge. Even if you go to Home Depot the thinnest gauge steel studs they sell is 25 gauge. You can't even find 26 gauge studs at HD.
With 26 gauge sheet metal the pullout strength of a screw would be around 120-160 lbs depending on the screw you use and how you install it. Plus it is REALLY easy to strip out 26 gauge steel. When you run a coarse threaded screw into 26 gauge steel, you can pretty much forget about trying to back it out if you put it in the wrong place. That screw has to remain there because it cannot be backed out since there isn't enough thread cuts into the thin steel to be able to reverse the screw.
With those clips and 5/8" drywall on a ceiling, it will require 200 lbs per attachment point. Since 26 gauge steel is around 120-160 lbs of pullout, it would not be a wise thing to do. Therefore more attachment clips would have to be used to spread the load and offset the light 26 gauge steel.
200 pounds at the connection point ....are you kidding me!! a ceiling fan box is only required to hold 80 lbs. where do you derive that tidbit? by the way coarse thread screws hold better than self tapper's in 26 ga. or 25 ga. and are harder to strip out |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Jelly
Veteran Member
Posts:1017
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| 03 Jun 2015 05:43 PM |
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Posted By Lbear on 03 Jun 2015 02:24 PM
In the commercial buildings that I am familiar with, the minimum gauge of lightweight steel studs is 25 gauge. Even if you go to Home Depot the thinnest gauge steel studs they sell is 25 gauge. You can't even find 26 gauge studs at HD.
With 26 gauge sheet metal the pullout strength of a screw would be around 120-160 lbs depending on the screw you use and how you install it. Plus it is REALLY easy to strip out 26 gauge steel. When you run a coarse threaded screw into 26 gauge steel, you can pretty much forget about trying to back it out if you put it in the wrong place. That screw has to remain there because it cannot be backed out since there isn't enough thread cuts into the thin steel to be able to reverse the screw.
With those clips and 5/8" drywall on a ceiling, it will require 200 lbs per attachment point. Since 26 gauge steel is around 120-160 lbs of pullout, it would not be a wise thing to do. Therefore more attachment clips would have to be used to spread the load and offset the light 26 gauge steel.
 Lbear, with all due respect, there is a whole lot of inaccurate information in your post. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 03 Jun 2015 05:46 PM |
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I think the clue here is using "the Home Depot" as a professional point of reference
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 03 Jun 2015 06:21 PM |
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5/8" drywall weighs 2.2 lbs. per sq. ft. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 Jun 2015 08:13 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03 Jun 2015 06:21 PM
5/8" drywall weighs 2.2 lbs. per sq. ft.
Chris, What is the standard commercial grade steel stud gauge? How much weight can hang from the 26 gauge steel used in the Permatherm SIPs? You once referenced maximum 160lbs pullout strength on a #10 screw. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 03 Jun 2015 08:28 PM |
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Posted By Lbear on 03 Jun 2015 08:13 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 03 Jun 2015 06:21 PM
5/8" drywall weighs 2.2 lbs. per sq. ft.
Chris,
What is the standard commercial grade steel stud gauge?
How much weight can hang from the 26 gauge steel used in the Permatherm SIPs? You once referenced maximum 160lbs pullout strength on a #10 screw.
if you attach a ceiling fan pancake box with 4 - # 10 screws then the screw hold value is maximum 640# |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 Jun 2015 08:32 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03 Jun 2015 08:28 PM
if you attach a ceiling fan pancake box with 4 - # 10 screws then the screw hold value is maximum 640#
Chris, So basically what I originally stated, 160lbs per attachment point. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 03 Jun 2015 08:34 PM |
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Posted By Lbear on 03 Jun 2015 08:32 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 03 Jun 2015 08:28 PM
if you attach a ceiling fan pancake box with 4 - # 10 screws then the screw hold value is maximum 640#
Chris,
So basically what I originally stated, 160lbs per attachment point.
the question was where did you pull out the 200 Lbs? an attachment point can have 2 screws or more |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 03 Jun 2015 08:46 PM |
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16 foot overhead door track to 26 ga. skin  |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 03 Jun 2015 08:54 PM |
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entire second floor system hanging off (in shear ) 26 ga. skin  |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 Jun 2015 08:58 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03 Jun 2015 08:34 PM
the question was where did you pull out the 200 Lbs? an attachment point can have 2 screws or more
We were discussing the sound clips which attached at 48" intervals. The manufacturer stated that the single screw attachment point needed to have the higher rating. 25 gauge was the minimum and 22 gauge was ideal. That is why I stated the sound clips would have to be doubled up with shortened intervals, 12" or 24" oc instead of 48" Design Load Maximum for Wall or Ceiling Application 2:1 safety factor 2.5:1 safety factor |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 Jun 2015 09:00 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 03 Jun 2015 08:54 PM
entire second floor system hanging off (in shear ) 26 ga. skin
So the entire floor will be supported by just screws into 26 gauge sheet metal? |
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