Incredible frustrated and SCARED
Last Post 29 Jul 2017 05:57 PM by Dave Waters. 23 Replies.
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YohyattUser is Offline
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29 May 2017 05:05 AM
Hi - my first post obviously, I've been holding out for too long... My wife and I completed an owner build on a single story SIP home last labor day. The builder is one of the worst, so I can't get any information out of him. We have a strange smell coming from the white foam - I narrowed it down after noticing the smell coming from any opening in the drywall and interior sheathing. I pulled a chunk of foam and BINGO - that was it - thought for a while it was new drywall - it's a sharp chemical smell, almost like cocaine if you believe it. I called both west coast sip manufacturers (they both denied selling my GC Panels last year -so maybe it is because they were brokered??) but they both said their foam is expanded with water and has very little smell, if any. and it would deteriorate within a few weeks. Panels were delivered in Octoberish of 2015, they were fabbed on site and were stood up late fall, and got soaked all winter. I did force builder to tarp panels while they were flat. and they got the top plates in relatively quick. We probably got 40-60 inches of rain that winter, then came spring and I started siding (last year) tyvek went up, then I furred our everything with 1x2s, 80% corrugated siding (sideways), 20% cedar. slab on grade, single story, corrugated roof with bituthene underneath - 2/12 pitch. The building didn't plug the chases (air seal), but used the sip sealant on all 6 sides, top and bottom plate, I did all the air sealing myself, sealed all plates, seams, etc, windows with real air tape on, air barrier is on inside. The smell is really only noticeable in the winter, when the wind picks up. I can smell it now even though it hasn't rained in a while, when it gets windy. The panels had all last year to dry out (siding was complete around late may) it's hot here, no rain all summer - so I would think it dried out enough. My wife and I are worried, we just had a kid, that there is some kind of mold in the foam. I had a really really experienced carpenter do the siding with me, been doing this kind of work since 7th grade, said it was one of the nicest siding jobs he had done (he's 56), and feels that there are no leaks. Guy that specializes in metal roof did ours, and I didn't see any leaks this past winter - wettest on record. It's definitely coming through the chases, and i"m pretty sure its the foam. Is this dangerous and will it go away - we have so much time and money into this house it's really starting to take away anything postive because we're so nervous and no one around has ever heard of this. I called a building hygenist who said it was a leak, but I don't see any and it even smells on the lee ward side of the house which gets almost no rain (on top of a hill facing south). Please tell me this will go away and I don't need new walls and roof?
DilettanteUser is Offline
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29 May 2017 07:07 AM
1: Ask this "hygenist" what KIND of leak he/she thinks it is. You're not always going to "see" a leak.

If you can't get anything out of the builder, get another home inspector in and arrange for an air quality test.

And make preliminary noises to a lawyer. If you don't have direct bills of goods for things like your SIPs, you have ZERO information on the actual content of your panels.

Also, yes, this SIP manufacturer's foam expands with little smell, under IDEAL conditions. But, with a badly mixed, prepped or set batch of foam, you have no idea what could come out.

Still, talk to professionals in your area.
arkie6User is Offline
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29 May 2017 10:24 AM
Crawl space or slab?

Is it possible you have a leak from your plumbing drain waste and vent system? Are there any plumbing vents in the exterior walls? Is it possible screws or nails got driven into the vents and have corroded away leaving a hole in the pipe? Are your exterior roof vents open and venting freely?
YohyattUser is Offline
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29 May 2017 03:20 PM
Thanks guys. One hygienist said it was a window leak - and I heck one set of windows I didn't caulk- and they were leaking and he lower horizontal fur strip was getting wet, so I'm going to caulk it in another month or once completely dry. But I get this smell on all walls, where there are no windows.

Also, I were walked a left over sip that was holding up some wood the other day, it gave off the same smell- and I've noticed this smell when picking up old rigid foam board, which might be a familiar smell to you?

It's a slab on grade and it's most likely not a plumbing leak or vent, because it's on every wall. Mainly under my silks and where drain pipes protrude and outlets.
YohyattUser is Offline
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29 May 2017 03:40 PM
I think the key is that my SIP foam smells like the rigid foam that has been sitting outside for a long time. Someone probably knows what smell I'm talking about, what causes it, is it harmful and does it go away I'm hoping. The professionals up here don't know what sip panels are so it's hard for them to diagnose. I may take an piece of foam to a lab, and the smell is harder to locate now the wind isn't blowing and not raining.
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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30 May 2017 01:02 AM
It sounds like with 40- 60 " of rain over the winter and unprotected panels like there is moisture trapped in EPS core between the skins, EPS is closed cell, however if the manufacturer used regrind foam instead of virgin foam, the regrind is very porous and could have absorbed water
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
PARAHOMESUser is Offline
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31 May 2017 09:36 AM
Stop listening to the hygienist, builders, SIP manufactures & sales people, etc, that got you in this predicament to begin with since SIPs/ICF has all kinds of toxic risk they do not disclose. I disclose them thats why I'm not winning a popularity contest out here, not that I care, as I was just doing yesterday on another thread ironically about foam products not be properly tested for fungi and mating material hazards. http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/84540/afv/topic/afpgj/1/Default.aspx#155672

Id at least get your infant out of the building until you know whats going on, it sounds like an toxic outgassing that can even be minor explosive, seen many times before, unstable reactive foam chemical compositions, compounds, can see around heat and/or moisture and/or oxygen, or acidic rain, alkali, salts, sand & dust, etc, IF you are correct it is the SIPs or foam causing it which it sounds like it is.

Starting with the foam, who is the manufacture post the MSDS and any datasheets, along with the SIP manufacture data sheets showing adhesives and skin type. What are all the materials in direct contact with the foam including MEP?

I'd show you videos of this foam conditions where children/infants had to be evacuated and entire homes torn down but don't want to get you too worked up, and LOTs of other SIPS/ICF fungi failures they probably did not disclose resulting is health related issues and major financial losses, builder of course denied responsibility.

"And make preliminary noises to a lawyer."

This is good advise, more specifically a legal liability, personal injury, and/or construction contract attorney. Who ever designed the home is legally liable and they should be insured. If you took part in it you may not have a fighting chance, disclose that to the attorney(s).

Consider yourself fortunate to have an detectable odor, many think toxic gases and mycotoxic particles/gases are visable or sensible and may not know until it's too late.
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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31 May 2017 11:39 AM
Independent "third party" tests say otherwise ,
EPS Mold Resistance

EPS does NOT support mold growth
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
TorbenUser is Offline
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31 May 2017 06:50 PM
If you're unpopular it is probably more due to your hype and fear mongering. You pretend to be a professional but can't seem to master basic English. I hope the original poster seeks professional help rather than listening to this foolishness.
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31 May 2017 06:53 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 31 May 2017 11:39 AM
Independent "third party" tests say otherwise ,
EPS Mold Resistance

EPS does NOT support mold growth

<!--[if gte mso 9]> It’s clear your main interest is to protect sales, could care less whom, including children, are harmed physically or financially. You contradict yourself claiming, “moisture is trapped between the skins” that should not matter if the EPS is fungi inert per the test you posted. The fungi prone adhesive bonds lines should fill those area whether they are open or closed cell or reground, the ASTM C1338 test standard you provided does not test those different configurations since it does not matter. The manufacturing line, as I stated on the thread below, is supposed to NDI inspect those bond lines for voids by third party your product failed to disclose. If installation deflections (since EPS is low @ max compression allowable unless you buy the more expensive products most don’t) causes voids and delamination’s in the field which is likely, the bond lines, especially solvent based, will combine with the EPS to produce mold given the right conditions, and/or, the OSB/Galvalume sacrificial in your case wears off from alkali, or other boundary conditions, that mates to the EPS causing mold and structural degradations not tested either.

Sounds like you have an extremely high level of confidence in the EPS stand-alone lab testing, what is confusing then is why this same level of confidence is not reflected in your weak 1 year warrantee I broke down on this thread along with all the other lack of testing, lies, and all the unexplained SIPs failures?

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/5/aft/84505/afv/topic/Default.aspx

Very misleading in that there is no general test that pass-fails all EPS manufactures in the world, of course, common sense says that. ASTM C1338 is a limed 5 spore test using Czapek- Dox (inorganic salts, a sugar, water, < 86F, < 95% RH (temp & humidity only) many conditions can exceed I noted above, and, a mix not including the most common black mold mediums (stachybotry’s). If you read the ASTM disclaimers, the test does not guarantee EPS is fungi-inert in its applications, just in the lab and only the manufactures that conducted the limited test, not all. I thought I was super clear about that but obviously, you are not qualified to absorb all this.

The test standard and write-up is clear that “EPS interactions of materials” need to be tested and are not understood. As in common concrete mixes to include inorganic and/or organic additives, adhesives, material finishes, etc., in heat & humidity test and other combined test chambers, along with other contaminants found in atmospheres. Again, the Unit Under Test is not 100% fungi-inert EPS.

The misleading “Fast Facts on Mold”, just in case some readers are not educated on proper testing they try this last ditch effort to generate sales. Well there is new evidence I posted that shows mold mycotoxins is a health concern that must have just forgot to disclose –ha!

Later they instruct how to prevent mold most don’t follow, real life applications are not being simulated in the test labs. Most vapor, liquid, air trap or lock these assemblies. In the case of SIPS, not just the panels but the assemble joints. No instrumented field testing on whole building installations.

Anyway, I’m looking around for remote gas meter that may work in this situation, talking with some test labs.

If you retain an attorney they would advise not to post anymore. Under their direction, you may be able to build a case based on a lack of testing, disclosures. I’m no attorney but in talking to ours it will boil down to industry standards, which do not test to the level they should. There may be a class action suit if you can find more victims. This is the legal level “Green Building Advisors”, builders, anyone that has hands on design be accountable for, like all licensed pros, especially if it can be shown they profit from sales in any form. As a matter of fact the law suites have been well underway already in CA, NY, other locations, every since some of these designs and air sealing entered the industry. The cases are all over the internet and there may be some experienced attorneys to call.

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cmkavalaUser is Offline
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31 May 2017 07:25 PM
Parahomes,
I have no dog in the fight,
there is no sale here for me ?, I am trying to understand how this fellow came to have the issue
instead of "fanatical-fear-mongering" I am trying to help, the reason I have my phone number on every post, is so that people can call me directly about their concerns or questions about all types of SIPs, I get many calls during the course of a year.
and in fact the poster called me yesterday , I don't benefit one iota, I have NEVER charged anyone for my expertise. I don't hide under anonymity.
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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31 May 2017 07:29 PM
By the way Torben is an engineer - so now you have a formidable person to debate
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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31 May 2017 09:48 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 31 May 2017 07:25 PM
Parahomes,
I have no dog in the fight,
there is no sale here for me ?, I am trying to understand how this fellow came to have the issue
instead of "fanatical-fear-mongering" I am trying to help, the reason I have my phone number on every post, is so that people can call me directly about their concerns or questions about all types of SIPs, I get many calls during the course of a year.
and in fact the poster called me yesterday , I don't benefit one iota, I have NEVER charged anyone for my expertise. I don't hide under anonymity.

Anyone that has followed your post knows you don't spend this much time out for nothing, you push your SIPs sales and I'm glad I was able to identify all the undisputed risk you don't that CLEARLY describes this fault finding and the others. I get 5-10 emails and/or calls per day for jobs for the five or more roles I consult manufactures for, so what does not change or alter the facts I post out here, currently test engineer, HOs are not a client I want or my number be out here too.

Your "Engineer" made me laugh, love it, lol, like the rest of clowns with no solid technical content, and people wonder why I come here it beats TV, so far all we see is English teacher and some stupid "fear mongering" I take as medical advice nothing to worry about as far as chemical sensitivity of new borns. What a joke! The best advice is be safe rather than sorry or consult a doctor. I hope the only advice you offered is you are not a qualified Microbiologist to seek one.

 Under that direction or an attorneys, SIP core samples may have to be sent to a lab for environmental testing in a hot box, however, the atmosphere(s) at the home would have to be tested to simulate and that will cost a lot. Thats why I am looking for a remote gas sensor. I want to find out what the newest IOT tech is anyway for my library, so I will share what I find.
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31 May 2017 10:33 PM
Parahomes, ...you sound pretty important, I find it incredible that you get all these emails and calls when you remain anonymous ?
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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31 May 2017 11:19 PM
I have no desire to talk to anyone off the internet, I'd be more entertained if you posted another misleading test standard. You think you would know better from the last time you did that. I write and conduct these test, can't fool me, lol! Maybe Permatherm has an engineer that can better explain?

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/5/aft/84505/afv/topic/Default.aspx

http://www.permatherm.net/images/stories/Library/Technical/Cermastar_0508.pdf

I’ll make one thing clear to the readers you see often in sales hype is manufactures posting specs without identifying two major component’s.

1. The third party lab that performed the test and their contact info.
2. The third party that spot checks the final assemble line to inspect the current product is as tested.

So again, as I said above “component level” testing that is not conformed by a third party is worthless. ASTM, ISO, etc, provides the standard, they do not guarantee they are adhered to or address all safety, health, issues.

Let’s assume the mfg. adhered to the skin component standard and those are the unit properties. They are pretty pathetic and nowhere close to the claims above, not even remotely.

No more than few blisters @ 100% humidity, 100F after 1500 hours? Cycle that for 50 years to real life loads, coating will be gone and unlike a roof panel cladding replacing won’t be cheap. R&R the entire panel.

2. The 2000 hr. accelerated weather chalk & color test, same, inconclusive, not applicable…we need 50 year on Galvalume as built installed finish.

3. 5 year Florida exposure @ 45 deg south, great I’ll do my best on the orientation, try 0 degree south and international climate zones @ all orientations. #8s blisters how many? 20% film loss…How about 50 year cycles? Gone! R&R.

4. 1 year EMMAQUA Testing isn’t going to cut IF they even did it nor is “superior results” a numeric value. Let me guess Permatherm or sales opinion.

5. 1 hour Alkali test with “minimal effect”, in other words total loss of coating over a short life cycle. This is one of the biggest risk according to test data, makes sense to only show 1 hours worth of testing. Hide it.

6. 1000 hours of salt fog inconclusive. I’m doing one of these now.

7. No microbial, freeze-thaw, ice, condensation, wind driven rain, hail, vibration & seismic, testing to support the claims above.

8. Etc, Etc, Etc!

Bear in mind people upper level test specs allow for separate component level testing IF certain criteria is meet, or, a qualified test engineer determines the environmental loads are being simulated by analysis of individual results, these test fail miserable, otherwise, combined (salt-fog, alkali-acid atmospheres, temp & humidity, sand & dust, solar radiation, fungi, etc) are required here usually in a hot box.

The coating test are standalone component level not combined nor cycled to average building lives. In short cycles the tensile and flex modulus looks extremely low, no FATIGUE testing by looks at tensile/flex is low too, EPS will be lower making the skins worse, and we need creep properties low too or undefined risk.
We still have yet to see third party “Bonded Assemble Properties” lab & international field testing to a standard IF one even exist to validate the claims above.

The 1 year warranty says it all, supports my interpretation of data, see my notes…

All PermaTherm's structural insulated panel products are warranted to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for a period of one year from the date of shipment. A certain amount of "waviness" or "oil canning" is inherent in any product made from sheet metal (EPS low delection and creep allowables will accelerate). Installation of large areas of metal panels or installation of panels to misaligned structures will cause unnatural stresses, increasing the likelihood of oil canning (this is very likely unless high dollar factory FAJs assmble jig tooling are used in a controlled environment which they are not, initial seal compressions or migration over time, alignment, matting skins joints, @ panel max compression deflections being the highest risk)

A stucco-like embossed texture in a precoated material will reduce the visual effect of oil canning (hide anomalies). Oil canning does not affect the structural or thermal integrity of the panel (but bonded panel assembly deflection & creep, fatigue, fungi, does)

Minor waviness of the panel does not indicate a defective panel and is not a cause for product refusal ( voids and delams in this area need to be NDI). Minor blisters can sometimes occur when the panel's exterior face is exposed to the sun (not just the sun according to your own test results). This is caused by the thermal expansion of a blowing agent (toxic food for fungi? Where is the testing?), which is trapped under the panel face (Wow!, you’re kidding right? Bingo! Need lots more info here). This is a common phenomenon (not at all) and is easily repaired and is not a cause for product refusal. Repaired? By who?

Finish panels are free of surface imperfections (dents, mars, scratches, etc.) (likely panels scratch at construction exposing the steel, there s/b an installation chem treat (usually alodine) spec) and visible with panel in position of intended use and view under good light from intended installed distance or 8 ft., whichever is greater. (8 ft visual inspect? Your kidding!) Typical ISO/ASTM bond panel specs call for NDI (UT, XRAY) and destructive coupon testing of all dents, voids, delams) as part of first qual testing, QA inspections by third party & submitted to materials engineers for evaluation, which can result in costly reword to bond tooling and/or processes, rework by service bulletins to correct products in the field usually by inspecting & injecting the bond lines void or delam.
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31 May 2017 11:27 PM
No words , just simply awestruck!
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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31 May 2017 11:35 PM
Between Parahomes and the recent bout of spam; my kingdom for an Ignore or Block button. Not sure which is more annoying.
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31 May 2017 11:37 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 31 May 2017 11:27 PM
No words , just simply awestruck!

I suggest you get more testing & understand it better before posting it as a sales tool. It seems to be back firing. :)
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01 Jun 2017 04:43 AM
Para, how are your net zero specs going?
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03 Jun 2017 07:44 PM
Parahomes, that isn't it. You're not winning any popularity contests because you're a rude and horrible person.
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