Obviously I am a newbie but first would like to let known my appreciation to this forum. There is a lot of great information and positive participants. I just wish i did research prior to building. I am not the only one with problems i spoke to a few others and we are all at a loss. As in many posts all MGO is not created equal. This is very true to my experience with a 40x60ft shop and a 1665sq/ft house. Located northern Alberta. The nightmare! inferior MGO high Calcium Chloride base. moisture absorption at a high rate Structural missing or lacking engineer rubber stamped. non certified MGO and wall system. sold as 65min fire rated but no certification 75% of my MGO absorbs allot of moisture. causing corrosion of the screws supplied and installed by the Alberta manufacture. Mold development issues and future structural spline rot. there is over 400ft of cracks mostly south walls, some measuring 2.65mm wide, due to the sun heating the walls to over 74C even on clear sunny January day with ambient of -19C thats a 93C diferential. in the matter of 2 hours. They are exposed MGO board and batten finnish, as per the manufacture, installed strips to cover the seams and painted with benjamin moore aura paint. Fasteners above grade installed and supplied are all gold deck screws, and are now corroding due to the moisture levels and calcium chloride base. 9 independent Engineers investigated but only 2 would take on the final reports. But verbally they all came to the same conclusion, your screwed. Due to no certification and the MGO failing 1/3 the support required for snow load and 0 no lateral racking support besides the foundation and roof. I contacted the manufacture his proposed resolution is just over 4000.00 and supply calking for cracks with a catch of sinning a extortion letter voiding walking away from any and all warranty. We did not agree obviously. Upon contact with Alberta Municipal Affairs Building safety code department. Verbally engineer from there department agreed with the other engineer that the buildings should not passed application step. But at the time of application was prior to there new rules that requires a variance now. so i am prior by 8 months so tough luck for me and others basically. just because a crooked engineer stamped it all is good for construction and will last 50 years or 10, that's fine if it were a toaster. municipal affairs wants us to contact APEGA the governing body for engineers in Alberta and they will step on the original engineering. But all this does is reduce this from happening to others and nothing for existing houses there is one i know with a stop work order at electrical wiring stage by the local inspector over a year ago. now his mandatory new home warranty has canceled due to lack of confidence of the product. now he has 2 mortgages. A house in construction that he legally cant Finnish. My local building development department told me not to worry about it because i now have my occupancy permit. So all is good just stay out side during a windy day or if there is snow on the roof, and wear a respirator for future mold development. Where do we go from here we cannot afford legal one individual is over 50,000.00 and getting legal runaround till he cannot afford it anymore, we have invested every thing into dream homes that are failing around us.

a Link to some pictures to big to upload https://photos.app.goo.gl/UDxbYP9jw5e2Hc6C9

Albertamike; sorry for your experience , it gives a black eye to the industry

Posted By cmkavala on 27 Jan 2019 11:41 PM
Albertamike;
sorry for your experience , it gives a black eye to the industry

it's basically what I have been preaching about for the last 7 years .
My MGo experience as been about, moisture absorption, corrosion and brittleness of the skins.
unfortunately the photos show a catastrophic failure

I forgot to mention that the pictures of the cracks are after 6 months and growing every sunny day as the sun sets. I received my occupancy permit October 2018 but did not argue due to living in a holiday trailer for a year was enough. the screw pictures are from the interior of the garage never seen rain and pulled 3 months after install.

not all MGO sips are created equally there is some good products and manufactures standing behind there work due to there own testing prior to building with and fully tested certified board. one company in Alberta is http://rccorp.com/ my dad built with them 3 or 4 years ago and a great experience with the only CCMC certified mgo sip in Canada. I find out now a little to late.

Yeah that's why you have to be very brave or crazy to use SIPs for wall structure. See same problems with OSB SIPs too but hardly any with Steel SIPs. Using non US and non tested or approved SIPs is big part of problem too. Sometimes you get what you pay for and dealing with building structural failure will be crazy expensive. Very sorry to hear of your sad saga...

The walls were definitely not cheap $160,000.00 siting on site not standing or footings just panels, the company advertised certification and when asked they confirmed it but cannot provide any thing now. I just want others to be extremely cautious and get proof prior to payment. CYA

Albertamike, Do you have a set of shop drawings that you could share with us? If we could get a look at them we may be able to make some recommendations that could help. I assume that the drawings will show any structural elements that have been incorporated into the SIP's. As Chris Kavala stated, It is always sad to here that anybody has had a bad experience with SIP's in general. It gives the industry a bad name. Those of us that have been in the business for the last 30-40 years have seen and heard it all at one time or another.

Thanks in advance for any help. the shop drawings, here is a link to the drawings they are to big to upload. so put on my google drive. The worst problem is the MGO that was used. The south walls are the worst failing after a sunny day when the sun sets they crack more. tonight another 8 ft. this is not gradual they sound like hitting with a hammer and 4 ft crack appears. soon racking lateral load support will be gone! https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R87BO1QKbRYbEGVs42FDNSYbbLlmAbUj/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uOdjy3kEjDFXlw7IlH3iwpEtCVc0iMRU/view?usp=sharing

Thats one of those things that I can't unsee now. Why in the world would any one put MGo below grade where it can absorb moisture , it's not allowed in wet shower areas on the interior, let alone were it can absorb freeze -thaw on the exterior. the problem is all the way to the footing , this should be condemned

Resent update from a good engineer. His evaluation is that the MGO has to come off down to the footing. add studs to for proper roof point loads. add lots of lumber to the basement due to a PWF system now. This is bad due to the house is finished up and down. His evaluation is Start over and build it properly. now the fight starts with insurances because it has not failed enough for them to consider this. the government is handing it around passing the buck because there is over 200 built this way and they are avoiding the responsibility. so now i live in a house adsorbing moisture beyond limits hrv over-sized and dehumidifier running constantly. but heating cost going up as cold front here -22F, -30C at night.

Posted By Albertamike on 11 Feb 2019 08:33 PM
Resent update from a good engineer. His evaluation is that the MGO has to come off down to the footing. add studs to for proper roof point loads. add lots of lumber to the basement due to a PWF system now. This is bad due to the house is finished up and down. His evaluation is Start over and build it properly. now the fight starts with insurances because it has not failed enough for them to consider this. the government is handing it around passing the buck because there is over 200 built this way and they are avoiding the responsibility. so now i live in a house adsorbing moisture beyond limits hrv over-sized and dehumidifier running constantly. but heating cost going up as cold front here -22F, -30C at night.

you should beg the building official to condemn your house and then make a claim on your homeowners insurance for a total loss

I would seriously be concerned about total collapse while I was in it
EPS and splines are the only thing holding it up

Albertamike, Based on what I am seeing, you have double 2x8 treated wood vertical splines at 4' on center in all the panels. You have a section of wall at the door openings that is 2x6's. Is that correct? There is also a horizontal double 2x spline at the center. Is that correct? There are some options for moving forward that I can recommend based on the shop drawings you have provided and how the panels are assembled. I would prefer to have a conversation on the phone if that would work for you. I have a lot of additional questions that would be easier to address on the phone. Feel free to contact me. I am on the east coast. Kevin Casey 716 880-5620

contacted local building officials they are coming out for a re-inspection next week will see.

Albertamike, Thanks for calling yesterday and providing the documents that I requested. As I mentioned on the phone, I will start to get into this with some of the people I know in the industry and see what I can dig up. I will keep you updated when I receive anything that could be helpful. In the mean time I would like to open this discussion up to anyone that has had any experience with MgO or MgO SIP's that they want to share, good or bad, so that we have something to compare our findings with. Thanks, Have A Great Day!. Kevin Casey

Thank you for your help so far Kevin i have lots to think about now.
My wife noticed that we are using double the amount of wood pellets compared to last year with the same temperature, my thoughts is that the mgo moisture adsorption is wicking into the EPS Type 1 0.9pcf. if so this will reduce the R value considerably or its just me overthinking.

Mike, Attached is a document detailing the effects of moisture on EPS in a below grade application. I realize that this would only apply to a portion of your structure, but I think it will address your concern. I agree with you, there may be a minor loss of R-value but if it is allowed to dry out it will return to within 5% of the stated R-Value. https://www.epsindustry.org/sites/default/files/Below_Grade_101_33116.pdf What you may also want to possible consider is that the fracturing of the MgO board and the fact that it is securely laminated to the EPS could maybe cause a fracture in the EPS core. Not that you need anymore bad news. I would suggest that you take a very thin strip of plastic or metal and see how much force you have to exert on it to slide it into one of the fractures. I think this my answer this question. Let me know how you make out.

Yikes, I feel for your position. We completed an MGO SIP house over a year ago but have been very happy. We did get some cracks at the splines, but we were warned about that as the splines were just taped and mudded. I'm surprised the heat and moisture caused such cracking...it seems much more of a manufacturing defect then anything else.

I wonder if you can just frame a 2x6 wall on the interior of the house. You will lose some floor space but if they sit under floor joise of each floor up to the roof it should provide all the loading you need.

That's the risk with SIPs. The integrity of your wall structure is is totally dependent on the glue holding the panel to the insulation for the life of the building. The odds of that happening approach zero as you move from steel to OSB and to MGO. A bad manufacturer or a bad lot can get you to this sad saga quickly.

I'm not sure that really applies to this person so I'm not sure why your mentioning it.

Delamination of a SIP to the core is extremely rare. And MGO panels are even less likely to delaminate from age or stress. The mode of failure for MGO panel is almost always catastrophic failure of the core (it splits in half due the skins exceeding stress).
The website DeepDyve has the largest collection of long and short term testing of SIP's and MGO SIPS. I've read at least a hundred of them and non of them failed or had risk of delamination. Despite some of these studies even trying to get delamination after accelerated weathering freeze/thaw cycles.
The very few cases that did have de-lamination where caused by rotten OSB caused by poor install. Its not really the same true delamintion...as the glue does not fail....the OSB just rotts away.

The risk to original poster is not delamination but the large cracks in skin which could allow the core to fail upon compression.

But throwing out "de-lamination" concerns seems like fear mongering from an ICF advocate.

I am not an ICF advocate although I seriously considered it several years ago for a vacation home in AZ. In the end I went with CMU and exterior stone facing and then did a 2x6 interior wall separated from it by 20” and filled with rock wall I got for free to get a R60+ wall. My comments relative to SIPs are from being involved with many law suits against manufacturers and the companies that badly install them. Like Geothermal industry, lots of problems in the SIP industry and most of them are delamination related after about 10 years...and mostly because moisture problems with OSB and especially MGO. Steel SIPs have a much better track record but there still have been bad lots that didn’t get solvent cleaned before the adhesion process and then failed. I am sure there are SIPs that will last forever, but the reality is somewhere between that and this sad saga. Insurance company won’t help you when SIPs fail and SIP manufacturers and companies that install them disappear like a fart in the wind making them challenging to sue and actually get settlement. Feel free to ignore my comments.

Do you have a link to any of those lawsuits? Nearly all court cases have a public docket sheet.

I'd truly be interested to read one and it's finding. I am not aware of a single well documented case of delamination. Every case I've seen was the typical OSB damage by vapor transmission in poorly sealed seams.

And if you have a case or article regarding an MGO panel case all the better.

If you just know the party names (ie Walter v company a) I'm happy to do the digging in public case files.

Non-disclosure agreements...so unfortunately you are not going to find much in public database...

Hmmm, that is odd indeed.

While NDAs can cover the settlement etc, the filing of any and all lawsuit is always public by its very nature unless perhaps it's a matter of national security.

Eitherway, the search for a documented case delaminating SIP panels continues.....

If you were involved in the case and the settlement has a NDA you can’t disclose any aspect of the case. And good attorneys minimize what is submitted for public records. If you are a good sleuth you might find something but you likely won't discover the details you seek and you won’t be getting it from me.

MGO problems are new to Canada and the USA, but has problems in other countries Germany, Denmark, Australia, Germany https://ing.dk/artikel/efter-ny-mgo-kendelse-mt-hoejgaard-hensaetter-400-mio-kr-erstatninger-214490 Australia Condo Complex https://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/08/11/19/33/faulty-tower-apartment-owners-suing-lemon-property-developer-for-20-million http://acboa.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/CCMCMgOBoardAdvisory-March2018.pdf

But do not get me wrong not all MGO is created equal there is a few good products that dont absorb moisture as readily, but do your home work prior lots of it. over 2000 china manufactures and only 10% are good for sips or any construction.

For sure, MGO is still the wild west. But just like you can get a nice iPhone from China you can also get some crappy knockoffs.

To the orginal poster, I would recommend a good moisture block like sherwin loxon. Then I'd put a hard siding over the batons like LP Smartside (James Hardie is nice but heavier and we don't want more weight) . That should create an air channel between the siding and the MGO which should really help with the solar heat gain and rain driven moisture. Combine that with some internal framing and you may be ok short term... 12-24mon while a long term plan can be made/forced with the vendor.

Unfortunately, the OP's home is a total demolition and rebuild. Once you start seeing cracks in MGO, it is all over and covering them up with siding won't prevent a catastrophic failure.

What I suggested was to reframe with 2*6 on the interior side from basement to roof and to cover the exterior until better plans can be made.

Reframing on the inside is a tried and true method for structurally deficient buildings. The exterior MGO panels become insulation only. Of course the MGO does still have some strength in it...the house hasn't fallen yet.

My guess is if the OP was in a place to just demolition and start over he wouldn't be on a forum asking for ideas.

Even if a full tear down is the ultimate answer, most homeowners will need to spend at least a few years fighting it in court or with insurance. In the meantime they need a safe place to live at the cheapest possible remedy. And most people don't have a second home.

A few years ago I did a house flop for a 1900 farm house and the stone foundation had completely fallen away. The house had sagged feet and when we started removing wall plaster the walls dropped a literal 6“. It was actually being held up by plaster.

But a couple of steel post and beams in the basement, timber frames on the first floor and a nice floor jack and the house will stand for another 100years.

Well that's the thing. There is no way of knowing how much structural strength is left in the building. It could literally collapse at any time. A construction crew would be risking their life doing what you suggest. And does it make any sense to throw more money at this? Yeah I feel very sad for this family but I would hate for something even worse happen. Their best hope is a legal remedy and perhaps help from their government which is currently the only one left in North America that cares for the general welfare of it’s citizens.

Even the basement floor is MGO but has footings 8ft centers strips to support but they dropped 3/8in between the footings so lots of floor leveler was used, and a layer of 3/4ply The Government is going no ware because it has a Engineered stamp so they say my only option is to take the Engineer to court. According to local and provincial building safety division, they did tell me off the record keep close eye on changes use caution. I just picked up 2x6 and going to corner angle brace the buildings from the exterior. my friend is in same build and $70,000 legal and not over yet.

Update on lack of progress

A special thanks to all replies and assistance especially Kevin

Local building department= claims built to code because engineer stamped drawings, but no inspection by the Engineer or Rep of, They say to take Engineer to Court

Alberta Building Code department= Claims no responsibility due to the date of Building approval was 6 months prior to there update on sip code but completion was after the fact code only applies on date of application. they instructed me to Contact APEGA (Alberta Engineer governing body)

APEGA= The most helpful, They are coming out for a site visit next month when it warms up. They can not financially help but if they find wrong doing can prevent this from happening to others.

My Dads Corporate construction Insurance (Dads Company listed as the builder)= sent info to an investigating company who completed there report, but his insurance since November has no response and working on complete avoidance claiming they are waiting on the report, but I have confirmation of report completion in Nov 2018 and couriered to there office. They are scared i think trying to figure how to avoid helping.

Had a Meeting with a Corporate Lawyer in Calgary with 6 other individuals with the same build but the cost is to great for us even as a group. one individual had a claim started with him but is over 50,000.00 and sip company and Engineer side stepping trying to run him out of money before it goes to a Judge.

We are very sorry to see and read about your experience.
We have been intrigued with the concept of MGO sips and have considered it for our future home. As we are also from Alberta it is very useful information knowing what you have experience. We are very thankful that you are sharing it with others to help prevent it from happening again.
Like you and others have mentioned, "not all MGO is created equal" it makes a person really weight out their risks and or potential gains.

ConleeH, Problems like this are not limited to the MGO industry it happens with OSB and other laminated panels also. That is why it is so important that you know what to look for when selecting a SIP's provider. I truly believe that SIP's are the only way to build, and I have devoted my entire professional career to being involved with the industry. When you are ready to build your dream home just be ready to do some research and select a reputable manufacturer. There are several good ones out there so you should be able to get a few prices for your project to compare. Kevin Casey

Who made the SIP? It looks like 8 mm MGO board, is that correct? I do not understand the large gaps between the panels? It looks like they were not sealed correctly before the battens were installed? I can see exposed lumber in many of the joints. It looks like the joints in the garage were left unfinished and not caulked on the interior? What is protecting the wood joints from the cold air with those large gaps other than a batten strip which is not airtight? It looks like from the areas board was removed by the inspector moisture testing the lumber, that many gaps were not filled with spray foam insulation during the installation? I assume you are heating the inside of the building? What is keeping the heat from escaping out between these gaps in the system? It looks like this structure was not properly sealed at the windows, at the doors, between the panels, etc. and that this structure is moving all over the place, leaking air, hot inside mixing with cold outside air causing condensation? I see panels being set on the floor plate with no spray foam being used to seal and eliminate air gaps in the system. Look at the picture after painting at the floor plate on the outside. The MGO has deteriorated and you can see the moisture leaking out and down the wood plate. This is a leak at the SIP floorplate, hot air mixing with cold air which is causing condensation and deterioration of the system. That is an installation issue. Look at the 45 degree cracks at the corners of the 1st level panels. Many engineering and building installation errors in this structure as well as what could be deficient MGO board? I do not understand the framing around the windows and doors, the bucks should be inside the panel? It looks like they just added a nailer at the panel spline for the window / door and covered it with board and cut the SIP around the opening? This structure needs to be properly sealed and the calculations for proper fresh air ventilation need to be reviewed to ensure proper ventilation is occuring. You could write a book about all of the issues with this structure, many problems, allot more than just a bad MGO SIP.If you can resolve all of the air leaks and solve any structural issues, I would use the product "Stucco Flex" for sealing and finishing the exterior MGO system. Check out their website, this product might be of help once you get the other issues resolved.

This structure could very well need to be demolished, but just because MGO cracks on a SIP does not mean catastrophic failure will occur with the structure or the SIP. All structures can crack, masonry,concrete, they all move. What is the load, if any on the panel? Not all panels in the structure are supporting loads. Based on the pictures, there are LVL's, post and other structural framing members supporting loads. It may be possible to add additional structural support to this structure in some locations in order to avoid demolition of the structure? I feel bad for the Owner and its too bad for the SIP industry when things like this happen, it makes the technology look bad, but a poorly designed and installed structure, regardless of which system is used to construct it can have many of the same issues. Best of wishes for a positive outcome.

I tried to PM you but I won’t go through. Can you on me with your number I’d like to talk to you we are weeks away from ordering system or our house build but I think I’m dealing with the same manufacturer you used

It's a slow process. and more bad news. The panel manufacture is MagPro and Titan Wall from Alberta Canada. I just received notification from the Alberta GOV there is "NO" Certifications for there products registered that they could find. Fighting Alberta New Home Warranty now. The house is still cracking 20ft this past 3days as the nights get colder.

thanks for your input i am late on my responses. there is only 2 LVLs supporting the center of the floor truss on the 2 ends furnace room and family room. the windows you are correct are just a nailer attached to the skin. there is a double 2x8 header top of wall above doors and windows not enough for the patio doors though, they are sagging 1/4in in the middle. doors fit bad and rub now. there is a double 2x8 stud at 4ft but on the stacked walls below grade ect. are offset so no proper point load to footing. the panels were sealed with calking supplied by Mag-Pro but because of panel movement expansion it has opened up. all the calking on the battens have pulled also. i tried recalking but failed a few days latter. the panels are absorbing moisture that my cheap meter cant read on the stud when exposed.

This thread began with a sad story and hopefully, the OP was able to find a decent solution. I am thankful that he shared this experience.

I was contemplating using some MGO boards (Exacor-Extreme Green by Huber Wood) for a 4 bedroom home but as a subfloor on joists only, since I am aware of all the humidity and water issues, plus the scary stories from Denmark when used for vertical and exterior sheathing.
It is pretty clear that MGO boards do not like water and humidity, and no matter how manufacturers spin their story, I would never use it as an exterior application (never mind structural) unless the seams are taped and all screws sealed as you would do with a Secureroc or Zip board. Plus I would it cover with a layer of Mento and cladding.
Despite manufacturers stating that their products do not release salts and corrode metal when wet or humid, it is hard to trust this product with exposure to water.

Anyway, I "tested" a sample of Exacor partially covering it with weather tape and then dipping one edge in 1 inch of water.
Although the product is well manufactured with a good coating on one side and feels very solid when dry, it absorbed water from the edges and screw holes within minutes.
It dried and went back to its original status (at least in appearance) even under the tape, in 24 hours and after 3 days of dipping in water.
I would use it in a bathroom subfloor and walls but that is as far as I would go with water and humidity on an MGO board.

It may be worth noticing that Huber Wood is not pushing the Exacor MGO board much for exterior applications, but mostly for subflooring.
Their board is supposed to be a good reliable product in terms of not releasing salts since it is based on Extreme Green board which is the largest and most proven Chinese manufacturer.
But I think I would not be able to trust for structural application a small manufacturer of SIP panels that may not source their MGO from a proven company.

Personally, I wouldn't trust or use any SIP for any structural application, period. While modern adhesives are incredible, I wouldn't bet on them remaining so for 50 years much less centuries. So using SIPS that depend on long term adhesive strength in order to retain their structural strength is a risky bet I wouldn't personally entertain for any building that I own. I prefer time tested concrete, steel and wood structures.

I agree, and would not use sips for the same reason unless there is already a framing structure in place. The only product I would contemplate using, although technically are not SIP panels, are the RADVA panels like Thermasteel or Green Stone. They are installed more or less like SIP panels, but they actually are prefabricated steel-framed walls with insulation blown in at the shop. Once installed with all their tracks and plates they are nothing different than a steel frame structure without most of the thermal bridges. Add steel joists with tracks and proper exterior sheathing and there you have a structure that will stand for a long time.

Thanks Sebastian. Will take a look at those products. We have a pole barn project later this year and we will be looking for best way to accomplish it. Needs to be fire resistant, secure and relatively low cost given first two requirements.

SIP has been used since the 1950's, more than $200 million a year and delamination is not a big problem in the industry. It is a non-occurrence with manufacturers using modern extrusion equipment and urethane adhesives. Airplane wings are glued together to reduce metal fatigue so I would not worry about delimitation if you are using a reputable manufacturer with modern equipment.

Posted By sailawayrb on 25 Jan 2022 04:36 PM
Personally, I wouldn't trust or use any SIP for any structural application, period. While modern adhesives are incredible, I wouldn't bet on them remaining so for 50 years much less centuries. So using SIPS that depend on long term adhesive strength in order to retain their structural strength is a risky bet I wouldn't personally entertain for any building that I own. I prefer time tested concrete, steel and wood structures.

Interesting comment from the engineering arena,
adhesives have been used for years in plywood , LVLs, to hold rebar in drilled holes and currently used in our automobiles in lieu of welding

There were lots of delamination failures with both plywood and LVLs when they first became available and there have been subsequent failures even in recent years because of bad manufacturing batches. So probably not the best example for adhesive longitivity. We only recommend SIPs for some limited roof designs or occasionally for wall assemblies for temporary short-term buildings. We don’t recommend SIPs for long-term commercial or residential wall assemblies. We don't recommend SIPs for damp or high humidity climates or where termites are problematic. We are not a SIP distributor.

Posted By sailawayrb on 19 Mar 2022 12:51 PM
There were lots of delamination failures with both plywood and LVLs when they first became available and there have been subsequent failures even in recent years because of bad manufacturing batches. So probably not the best example for adhesive longitivity. We only recommend SIPs for some limited roof designs or occasionally for wall assemblies for temporary short-term buildings. We don’t recommend SIPs for long-term commercial or residential wall assemblies. We don't recommend SIPs for damp or high humidity climates or where termites are problematic. We are not a SIP distributor.

You just listed all the advantages of using galvalume steel SIPs,
besides homes, mainly used for cold storage and food processing facilities (High humidity environments)...there is a reason they are used, they simply out perform all other construction methods.
Termites (no food value there!) and they are UL certified green- "no off gassing"

www.permathermsips.com