I have read and re-read this thread...

I to gave up trying to find a qualified installer of a mod-con in Colorado that wasn't going to try to make a months income off a three day job (they quoted me two days, I am being generous)...Or have someone install a system that didn't want to pull permits, wouldn't function at my altitude, would function without re plumbing my gas lines (wanted to install 200k Btu tankless AND 100kBtu boiler!) or don't know codes.

Combustion analyzer, rent it for a few days...
The manufacturers put on certification classes...
No license needed in Colorado
I could screw up everything 3 times and still be ahead of the quotes I received... I was quoted equipment mark up of over 100% + labor

Colorado is a lot different than where you folks are from. Being that there is no licensing of mechanical contractors in most of Colorado, ANYONE can call themselves a mechanical contractor...

Even if I hired a contractor and paid them to drive the 100 miles extra round trip daily to come to my house to install my new boiler, how would I ever get them to come back for service at a reasonable fee. Why should I hire a contractor that doesn't have the manufacturers training?

I bought the boiler, indirect hot water heater, pumps, etc locally. I paid wholesale, no questions asked for a Triangle Tube Solo 110 and a Smart 50 IDHW. I paid less than online pricing. A few days of my time INCLUDING taking the manufacturers class in New Jersey is saving me over $12,000... That is a lot of chump change! Enough savings to buy the complete spare parts kit.

Heck, if anyone here in Colorado wants to share the knowledge, I would be happy to work together.

If you didn't get knowledgable help, then you well may have wasted the money you did spend on the upgrade. Sure hope you learned all you need to know to get good results in a few days.

the other fellow here in the same boat as you ended up finding a good guy he could work with. When that is what you have decided to do, it's funny how things previously thought to be impossible become possible.

$12k SAVINGS on a boiler install means you just didn't find the right guy. the boiler will hopefully be with you for a long time. getting it right the first time is worth something. not $12k, sure. but something.

I had four companies look at it...

One was technically flawed, one was $18k for boiler/indirect replacement, but wouldn't break out labor vs materials. The third broke out materials and had 100% markup on the boiler and parts. The fourth never responded with bids.

I think it is very reasonable to separate materials from labor. When wholesale is less than $3k on the boiler, is it justified to list it at $5800? When the three pumps are wholesaled at $500, is it ok to price them to the customer at $1800? I figure 20-30% markup on non stocked (by the contractor) is very fair. Hourly rates should be $80-$150 per hour? Everyone who looked at it said two 10 hour days. Even if I go 24hrs x $120 per hour, labor should be under $3k.

All anti-DYI act like this rocket science, between the manufacturer's training, 200 page plus manuals, hydronic heating texts, manufacturer support, my electrical knowledge and my college chemistry degree... I should be able to figure this out. Probably better than most HVAC contractor's in my area.

Posted By NRT.Rob on 24 Mar 2010 05:07 PM
If you didn't get knowledgable help, then you well may have wasted the money you did spend on the upgrade. Sure hope you learned all you need to know to get good results in a few days.

the other fellow here in the same boat as you ended up finding a good guy he could work with. When that is what you have decided to do, it's funny how things previously thought to be impossible become possible.

$12k SAVINGS on a boiler install means you just didn't find the right guy. the boiler will hopefully be with you for a long time. getting it right the first time is worth something. not $12k, sure. but something.

And who's to say that the contractor quoting the $18K was going to get it right even the first, second, or even third time, if it's a Wild West Show, where your only qualification requirements are being able to spell "Plumbing & Heating" correctly on the side of the truck?  High quotes are not a hallmark of competence- it often just means they have more margin to work with for patching/beating/reworking it into functioning.  A simple installation/boiler-swap with a Solo 110 + indirect would run about $9-12K total from the better heating contractors in my town.  Markups on equipment are valid- neither time nor money are free, but 100% markup on the major components isn't the norm around here either. 

But there are at least a dozen hydronic contractors within a 20 minute drive of my house, compared to the sparser population of CO, and the predominance of hot-air furnace heating in that region.  Competition surely counts too, as does the shelf-time of the parts stock at the distributors. It's a different market.

Still, my business partner who lives in one of the tonier Boston 'burbs had to chase surly & relatively un-responsive contractors only to get three quotes that ranged from something like $20-25K for swapping out his truly-ancient cast iron beast for a mod-con (no indirect).   At my prompting he solicited a quote for the pre-packaged cogenerator/mod-con/indirect Freewatt system (which uses the indirect load as a buffer to keep the cogenerator from short-cycling).  They responded within 24 hours, arranged a site-visit that week, had a quote to him in fewer than 10 days from picking up the phone. It came in at under $20K (making it a no-brainer), they installed the mod-con & indirect in less than 2 weeks from the time he handed over the deposit check (the cogenerator had to wait for some certification process between the company, the utility & the state, IIRC.)  The thing has worked flawlessly since. (And has nearly paid for itself in 3 heating seasons, between fuel savings and the electricity from the cogenerator in his 20+ cents/kwh local market.) 

Some contractors are worth every bit what they charge, others, not so much. (Take the folks who installed the 4x oversized cast iron thing that I recently decomissioned at my place, f'rinstance...)  The local guys I trust installed an entire system- a mid-efficiency boiler with 2-zones +  indirect, including enough baseboard to let it run at 140F at my nieces place for ~$8k a couple seasons back, after the 1920s vintage steam system finally crapped out for good.  Another local (who I'd used for plumbing, but never previously heating jobs) quoted me $12K, and warned me that (despite my having done a reasonable heat loss analysis) that I was going to need about twice the boiler output as I was asking them to quote on (despite providing no heat loss calc of their own.)  She's doing just fine with the smaller boiler.  You definitely don't always get what you pay for in this biz. I fully appreciate the frustration of those who throw their hands up in disgust and decide to go DIY after educating themselves.  It's way more than plumbing, but way less than rocket-science, and there are several ways to skin the cat.

I agree you don't always get what you pay for. But someone is on the hook for restitution if you don't get what you paid for from a pro. that's worth more than a couple of sneezes.

the 3 points I raised I consider non negotiable. You need *trained* combustion analysis. You need a dependable supply chain for replacement parts, preferably stocked by a local service person but definitely at least available. and you NEED a warranty that does not cut you out as an unqualified installer, whether you have a chemistry degree or not.

the fellow who posted earlier took the daring step of approaching a local wholesaler who sold the type of boiler he was interested in, and asked for references for installers that are willing to work with DIY'ers. Sounds like it is working out quite well. Have you tried that?

$18k for a boiler and indirect install and nothing else is insane, I agree. But CO is not a total wasteland of hydronic contractors. and Maine is more sparsely populated, thank you very much http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density and I still would not install my own boiler, and I know a half a dozen contractors off the top of my head who would do this kind of work. Of course I'm in the biz. So ask someone in the biz in your area. I bet the story is similar.

There are places where this is not true, of course. In those places I would skip the whole idea of going mod/con. But it's your house.

To be clear, I'm not advocating DIY boiler installs, only acknowledging the level of frustration people get when walking into it cold and being abused by incompetents. Only people who have educated themselves sufficiently have much of a chance of sorting it all out before it's too late.

There are similar issues with DIY &/or incompetent "professional" installation of fossil-fired on-demand tankless water heaters. I know of a case in IL where they've been billed 22 hours labor for a "simple" installation of a condensing tankless that still isn't working, and is probably dangerous. It takes more than 2 minutes for hot water to get from the tankless 12 feet laterally and 10 feet vertically, it makes a persistent rumbling sound on startup. The installers, "Dumb & Dumber Plumbing & Heating have been telling them that it's "normal". They sent two guys out to "fix it"- they swapped out a bunch of the PVC vent, raised the water pressure on their well system from ~30psi to ~60psi, which brought down the wait from 150 seconds to about 125 seconds, handed them the revised bill, and reiterated that the delayed ignition was "normal". I've told them multiple times to contact both the distributor and the manufacturer, and to never let Dumb & Dumber back in the door, document in notes & photographs the entire series of events and the installation. (My suspicion is that they have grossly undersized the gas lines, since they weren't changed/upgraded when it went from tank to on-demand, but I haven't seen the pics yet, and there could be way more than just gas feed issues going on, given the apparent cluelessness of the installers.)

I like the idea of asking the distributors for references- they have a unique perspective on local markets, and are better able to discern the folks who know WTF they're doing vs. the total hacks. I'd never opt to do a boiler installation myself, but I think I've learned enough to push back hard or avoid the (apparently ubiquitous), well-intentioned but incompetent installer/designers out there. I have a couple of local contractors that I feel I can work with, and there are surely more out there should I need to find them. But there is also a wealth of those other types...

believe me: I know how bad contractors *can* be. I get called in on rescue jobs all the time. as soon as they indicate they do combustion analysis though, you've weeded out a lot of chaff right there. I haven't seen match "botch jobs" out there with test holes in the boiler vent.

Maine might have more experienced hydro contractors? Does Maine require licensing?

Growing up in New England, I am pretty confident that New Englanders are demanding when it comes to quality service.

When I said chemistry degree, I should have explained that I fully understand the combustion process. I have 10 years of experience doing emission analysis from coal/gas/fuel oil power plants. I worked for a company that did combustion analysis for power plants. Just need to downsize my thinking.

Seriously, if I can't get someone to come give me an estimate (and I have offered $250).. What am I supposed to do?

Giving up on the Mod/con has been considered.... but I still wouldn't trust the people I have met to install a atmospheric copper fin boiler either....

I would check with the local distributors. If they can't help you, then it's time for Plan b.

Sounds great if you have the time, tools and skill sets.

I advise my clients to ask for a heat load analysis, automatically eliminating 90% of the contractors, regardless of licensing or local.

I would not trust a contractor that broke down his cost for you; it is no more your business than your checking account balance is to him. You asked for a heating "system" the parts and labor are just that.

My average ModCon with indirect on a direct change-out (existing low-efficiency cast iron boiler and conventional water heater) is 40 hrs. (1st one installed in 1987 in Colorado).

Those contractors that go to the factory (any one will do) to get training are a cut above and usually charge accordingly as they should.

I hear this old crank a lot, in fact the Tree Guy started with it, but now he finds lots of competent help...imagine.

Tree guy lives in a populated area... I don't..

Even are screwed up medical system details out parts and labor.

The only people who won't have something to hide.

I NEVER asked for equipment at cost. I asked for it priced out to see how much time was going to be spent vs material costs.

I thought you were outa here?

long time lurker first time poster- so charlie, treeguy, i think you guys are totally on the right track.

Paco, you are wrong.

You can be a careful and competant DIY'er and still end up a world of pain if you do not satisfy the 3 steps I most strongly recommend. I will repeat them over and over, tirelessly, because they are unassailable and true and because I have seen the pain careful, competant DIY clients of mine have gone through in some cases when they have not followed these steps. 1. must have arranged for CO testing. 2. Must know how you're going to get service parts, how long it will take, where they are. 3. Must have written warranty that does not exclude you as an untrained installer.

If you cannot satisfy those 3 items, you should not DIY a boiler install, period. If you can, you're all set, go nuts.

as for charlie, the "parts and labor" breakout is not really useful. Contractor Bob has to make X on an install. Either he makes some on labor and some on markup or all on labor or all on markup... in the end, if he knows what his X is, it's just a shell game and breaking out "parts and labor" on your install isn't helpful.

If he doesn't know what X is, then he's got a rigid business model and he doesn't know how to deal with you taking his part margin out of his equation. In that case he's protecting himself in a less business savvy manner. but in the end it's the same either way.

even if his part markup is really high, if he knows X then if you cut the parts out he'll just need to charge more labor and that's what most good contractors would do. Getting the price down would require actually doing things to reduce their exposure or time on a job.

And finally, it is totally possible to get pro boiler installs significantly cheaper in most places than all you guys are talking about. Maybe this experience brings out the "me too" people. but $18k boiler and indirect installs (that don't include full mechanical room packages) are way outside the norm.

rob,

Rob, you are right.

I do it for a living (when I am not specifically designing or re-designing failed boiler systems).

It is not about intelligence, it is about experience and trade specific training. Plumbers don't get it in the average apprentice program, nor do "heating" guys. The knowledge has to be sought out, usually after one - or both - of the other two trades are mastered.

If you have a ModCon driven system designed by a factory trained designer and find a person with the trade skills and tools, you are all set.

Otherwise you risk your 10k and can put the 8 you "saved" towards a system that works.

Hale Mary or percentage shot, it's all up to the free-thinker.

"Otherwise you risk your 10k" except the materials and plumber co check time really only come out to ~$6,500.

plus cost of the fuel between now and then. plus any service issues you have related to your problems. you assume it even works, and that it works flawlessly until it just dies. No breaking anything or ruining anything, just a clean death.

You can easily spend the cost of a boiler on replacement parts. Less easily but possible is to spend it on fuel.

but if you have covered yourself that's fine: you're all set. I'm just making sure people who have not don't start doing their own "fuzzy math" without a realistic overview of the things that can happen.

"you assume it even works"... if you hook it up according to the instructions it will work.

the co testing will tell you plenty. you can backtrack from there.

I hate to be rude, but your assertions are ludicrous. To claim "if you hook it up according to the instructions it will work" with a straight face... I'm not even sure how to respond to that except to say, you're definitely an optimist. You're even assuming that the boiler is fully functional when you buy it? I mean, that in itself is optimistic. defects and shipping damage are far from unknown.

CO testing tells you about the results of combustion. there are plenty of other things that can go wrong with boiler installs that may not be apparent for a season or two.

and part of being a pro is knowing when the instruction do and don't apply.

rob,

sorry, perhaps its me that's being rude. as i said above, i'm not trying to make it sound easy. but i think that if you line up the 3 things you outlined above then you are on your way to a good solution. for charlie and treeguy i think its a better alternative than forgoing a modcon (or worse, having someone who is not that well versed do the install improperly and at great expense.) remember, that's why these fellows are on the net looking for info b/c they are not able to find a radiant pro in their area. also remember that they have educated themselves. its not like they are trying to get a blessing on a flash water heater system, a radiantec open, or some other obviously flawed idea...

anyway, i get it that i'm no pro and should not be giving advice..i've been wrong before ;-)