This is my first post, and am very much a newbie.  I am in the process of self designing a 3800 sq' home (2 floors, standard rectangular footprint of appx 1900 sq' each) and a 2nd guest house (1 story appx 1000 sq')

Both buildings will have roof mount solar panels and I want to self install hydronic radiant floor heating in both buildings.

Tentatively, I plan on using a heat pump boiler for DWH and the radiant heat.  Both buildings will be built on an appx 4' high crawl space, concrete framed and poured foundations, with venting holes and at least 2 blocks outs for crawl space access.

The area is far northern California coastal property, very moderate average winter temps (typically lows in the upper 30s to low 40s in Dec, Jan and Feb), rarely gets below freezing, high humidity (40 inches of rain a year), sometimes high winds.

Summers are mild (no AC is needed) with average summer temps (highs in the mid 60s and lows in the lower 50s).

I do plan on hiring someone to design my radiant system, most likely a pro on this forum, as I think that would be money well spent to ensure I don't screw up the heat loss calcs and zoning.  But I will be installing the system myself, as I plan on doing a great deal of the house construction myself. I may hire someone in the area to pressurize the system for me after installation

Originally, I wanted to install a staple up with dispersion plates, but after reading more, I am now also considering warmboards or a similar prefab subflooring product.

But my real first question: Should I purchase the Siegenthaler reference book?  Especially if I plan on hiring a pro to design my system?

edited for more accurate annual weather statistics

It's worth the purchase price, if that's what you want to know.

You might want to hire someone who has a strong knowledge of local conditions as I have noticed that some people tend to get carried away focusing on their local environment. California coastal is quite different from a lot discussed here.

Yes, I would also agree Sieg's book is well worth the cost and it contains everything you need to know to design and install radiant heating systems if you have the mental capacity to comprehend an engineering book.

We also have free heat loss analysis, passive solar, and hydronic radiant floor heating design software on our website if you want to get educated on these subjects and run some numbers. Our hydronic radiant floor heating design software was originally based on Sieg's book design methodology, validated against his Hydronics Design Studio 2, and then further improved/refined. Just Google Borst Engineering, go to the Calculator tab, and please be sure to read the instructions before using the software.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 21 Apr 2013 09:53 AM
It's worth the purchase price, if that's what you want to know.

You might want to hire someone who has a strong knowledge of local conditions as I have noticed that some people tend to get carried away focusing on their local environment. California coastal is quite different from a lot discussed here.

Well, yes it seems that many on here are in Canada or Northern US, where the winters get very cold.

But how would milder winters screw me up?...unless I fall into a trap of over engineering the system.

There's at least contractor that installs Hydronic radiant systems in the area, but I'm not sure they're interested in a design while allowing me to install the system, they might want an "all or nothing" involvement.  Not sure.

Are you suggesting that someone in, say, Minnesota would not be able to properly design a system for me in coastal No Cal?

I've looked at many of the pages (Amazon allows extensive preview) and it is a great book. I read the areas about staple up pex/tubing, which morphed into a few pages of prefab technology and ideology (like warmboard).

I would really like to avoid the cost of prefab sheets, and I'd like to hope that I could get away with (and be happy) with nail up plates under a standard sub floor, given the area does not experience harsh winters...is that myopic thinking?

However, I also really want open engineered floor trusses but the little I've digested so far on this forum (and in the book) point towards much better performance with closed floor trusses. Comments from the pros?

Finished floors will probably be hardwood, except for bathrooms (ceramic or slate tile in bathrooms)

unless I fall into a trap of over engineering the system

Yup.

Are you suggesting that someone in, say, Minnesota would not be able to properly design a system for me in coastal No Cal?

I'm sure someone can, but in general, I've noticed a propensity towards thinking more about one's own local area. Given two designers of equal ability wouldn't you want to use someone locally who knew what worked and who could do it well?

It would depend on the experience and expertise of the local person in question.

I'd prefer someone who has designed and installed 1000 systems in their career in another area, over someone who has only installed 5-10 systems in my own area. And I suspect this could be the case.

someone who has only installed 5-10 systems in my own area

Hmmmm....I am wondering if that is telling us anything about the situation?

I would say you want a team who has properly designed and successfully installed many systems. There are many companies who have designed and installed many systems, but still haven't figured out how to do this properly or successfully... We would also recommend applying due diligence when dealing with any company that associates free design with their product purchase. History has shown that product retailers that offer free design service (and often feign competence) do this to entice customers to purchase their over-priced and often shoddy products. This coupled with incompetent installation by home owners (who often subsequently sell the mess they created) has resulted in hydronic radiant floor heating systems getting an unjustly bad reputation. Just read all the horror stories posted on this and other forums.

If you are going to install the system yourself as you indicated, why not just design the system yourself as well? You are more likely to achieve a successful install if you have a foundational understanding of the design process. If you are not comfortable accomplishing the design yourself, you should seriously consider using a licensed/experienced HVAC contractor to install the system. Ask for references and credentials.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 21 Apr 2013 12:17 PM

someone who has only installed 5-10 systems in my own area

Hmmmm....I am wondering if that is telling us anything about the situation?

Not sure where you going with that question .  But I will be happy to elaborate.  The area where I'll be building has a very low population density and not many homes are built compared to an area with a much larger population density.  There are a handful of builders in the area, and they most likely build a decent home but many (if any) have a lot of experience in radiant flooring.  Maybe I'm making too much of this though.

Posted By sailawayrb on 21 Apr 2013 12:28 PM
If you are going to install the system yourself as you indicated, why not just design the system yourself as well? You are more likely to achieve a successful install if you have a foundational understanding of the design process. If you are not comfortable accomplishing the design yourself, you should seriously consider using a licensed/experienced HVAC contractor to install the system. Ask for references and credentials.

And perhaps I will, but I know that an experienced designer might keep me from having a train wreck on my hands.  At lease that is true of my business.  I sell/design/install/service residential automation, home theater, distributed audio video systems.  I occasionally encounter DIY customers.  Some commission me to design a system, so that they can install it themselves, which I'm happy to do.  With few exceptions, systems that I design for a DIY, will turn out far better than a DIY trying to do everything himself.

I am a little intimidated by doing my own heat loss calcs and proper zoning and manifolding, so I figured it might be more prudent to give a good designer my floor plans, weather statistics of the area and pay them to design my system, and perhaps coach me on proper materials and methods to choose (arguably part of a good design).

But I know if I wanted to pour hundreds of hours into reading and study, I could probably design the system myself and probably end up with a decent system.  And perhaps I might do this.  I won't start building for at least 12 months (possibly 18 months), but I've many other things to study (solar, window choices, etc...) for this project too.

but many (if any) have a lot of experience in radiant flooring.

It sounds like you want to say there isn't much experience with radiant in your area, but that's not what the words say.

My question is why isn't there much radiant in your area?

I currently live 1900 miles away (In Kansas). And have purchased property in Trinidad, but not be able to move there for 3-5 years. I've talked to 4 different builders in the area, and only one has installed a few radiant systems.

I've hired a builder to get the buildings out of the ground and dried in. And I hope to do most of the interior and finish work myself, primarily because I can't afford to hire a builder to do everything and I have construction chops to do much of the interior work myself (electrical, plumbing, flooring, drywall, masonry, carpentry)

How would I know or find out how many radiant systems have been installed in the area and why would it matter? You seem to be hinting about something, why don't you just come out and say it and save us both some time. I'm the rookie, you're the expert...teach me.

you're the expert

I'm retired and only an expert consumer who is building my personal residence.

If there isn't much radiant or radiant expertise in that area, you might ask yourself why and I suspect the answer is because it is overkill in Humboldt County. You can probe around by talking to HVAC contractors to find out what is done there.

Are you looking to build a "green" or energy-efficient home? I mean, what are your goals for this house?

Maybe, hire the designer first, and then let him direct you to the reference books particular to your job. I own them all and have attended Siggy's seminars before he wrote the books. There is certainly a lot to read, but most of it has little to do with your particular project.

Find someone first with dedicated radiant floor heat load software; where all good HVAC design start. We use Wrightsoft with Uponor and Roth modules and have for nearly 10 years now.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 21 Apr 2013 11:24 PM

you're the expert

I'm retired and only an expert consumer who is building my personal residence.

If there isn't much radiant or radiant expertise in that area, you might ask yourself why and I suspect the answer is because it is overkill in Humboldt County. You can probe around by talking to HVAC contractors to find out what is done there.

Are you looking to build a "green" or energy-efficient home? I mean, what are your goals for this house?

Isn't radiant much more efficient for heating than forced air, regardless of local climate?  I did tour one home under construction that was totally hydronic radiant (heat pump/boiler combo) about 5 miles from my property. The home is 95% complete and the system is said to be working great and a very energy conscience home. I will consider this contractor, but again, due to costs want to do as much of the work myself as possible.

Radiant is uncommon here in Kansas even though the climate can get quite brutal in the winter.  Does that mean it is not a good idea?  Or the idea has not quite caught on here in the central plains?  I'd guess the latter. I'd also guess that radiant is starting to catch on in Kansas as, while it is uncommon, it is starting to get a foothold.  And perhaps the same is true for northern Humboldt county.

My goals:

1. I will retire in this home.

2. I'd like it to be as energy efficient as possible to minimize future utility costs (P,G&E rates are probably never going to go down?).

3. Pipe dream would be to go off grid, but I don't think I want to push that level of extreme.

4. I suffer from dry skin and radiant heat is much better than forced air.

5. Title 24 in Calif and H.E.R.S. (Home Energy Ratig System) might give me points for radiant over forced air, which I might need due to the number of desired windows.

6. I'd prefer to not have propane or gas on the project, but I may cave to that for a few things in the home.

7. I'm hoping to do a large roof solar array (with a bank of batteries) and it was insinuated that a heat pump/boiler radiant system is much more miserly on the eletrical load than a forced air/lp system.  Perhaps that is wrong.

8. Since I'm hoping to have as many west (ocean) facing windows as possible, I'll also soon be researching the various window technologies (costs vs. benefits, etc.)

Posted By BadgerBoilerMN on 22 Apr 2013 05:10 AM
Maybe, hire the designer first, and then let him direct you to the reference books particular to your job. I own them all and have attended Siggy's seminars before he wrote the books. There is certainly a lot to read, but most of it has little to do with your particular project.

Find someone first with dedicated radiant floor heat load software; where all good HVAC design start. We use Wrightsoft with Uponor and Roth modules and have for nearly 10 years now.

And that is kind of where my initial thoughts were.  I guess I'll start another thread with that very question.

We have designed radiant floor based HVAC systems from Alaska to Buenos Ares using the same ACCA dedicated software providing PEX tube CAD layout, near piping, ventilation, hi and low velocity hydro-coils and DX/warm air systems.

There are good mechanics in most areas of the country but few residential HVAC designers and even fewer radiant floor designers.

I find it interesting that anyone can, in one breath, note that companies that design on a regular basis can do shoddy work (which is absolutely true) and then turn around and suggest DIY design. DIY Design is typically the CAUSE of the nightmare scenarios out there. I find the cognitive dissonance between strongly recommending PEs and then recommending DIY design kind of amazing.

Educating yourself is really great, and getting siggy's book is great so you can sniff out who you want to partner with and make sure they know their stuff. But I've seen most of the nightmare scenarios you can see, and while radiant isn't quite rocket science, you can still learn something new about it every day, 15 years in. It seems unlikely to me that anyone is going to DIY a great heat pump radiant system on their first time at bat.

I',m glad you said it...hehehhehehee