Posted By greenlifehomes on 09/19/2008 10:43 AM
... Now that I have proper sizing done by a third party I need to find an installer who will work off my specs and still warranty their work.

Posted By greenlifehomes on 09/19/2008 4:35 PM
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Subject: Question about your post
Received From: 183eej
On: Fri, 19 September 2008 03:46 PM

Thanks for assuring me that I am not a complete lunatic. Now that I have proper sizing done by a third party I need to find an installer who will work off my specs and still warranty their work.

Question about your rescent post above. I didn't understand what you meant by finding an installer who will work off your specs and still warranty their work. I would have expected your specs to be in accordance with ASHRAE standards or the international building code or something like that. Why would an installer be reluctant to warrant their work in accordance with a standard such as one of these or is it due to something else?


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All the installers we've spoken with believe they need mulitple AC units and anywhere from 5 - 8 tons total. We build a very tight, efficient green home and according to manual j (and my own experience) we don't need more than 2.5 tons or more than one unit. I know from seeing the inputs using our specs that we used appropriate assumptions for calculation vs. generic industry standard info which the installers seem to be using.

These installers are convinced that "tiny" unit won't cool the home enough and that the customer will complain and the installer will be left on the hook. I'm on the other side knowing we the builder will be left "on the hook" with an uncomfortable, cold, clammy home with too much cooling--geothermal or forced air or anything else. It will short cycle, not removing enough moisture, causing potential indoor air quality issues, potential mold growth and a general level of discomfort throughout.

It doesn't help that we're competing with builders who still use aluminum windows and fiber glass batts so the installers are conditioned to assume shoddy construction methods and materials vs. our high performance homes.

Posted By senecarr on 09/19/2008 6:23 PM
14,000 sq ft? Is that the home from Dallas the show?
Well, I guess I don't feel so extravagant for the sq footage I bought because it was a deal.

Posted By 183eej on 09/19/2008 7:13 PM

... commercial geothermal is on fire.  Last I heard, there were 5,000 geothermal wells under contract in the Dallas area and all of it is for schools.  Don Penn has done a bang up job designing geothermal systems for about 150 schools in North Texas.  Unlike the residential chatter, the school community chatter is so positive that school boards don't even bother asking for a financial justification.  They are crawling over one another trying to get to the front of the line because their energy bills are brutalizing their budgets.   ...

Posted By engineer on 09/19/2008 10:01 PM
Dale, let me guess about the Highland Park cops -  Is it a case of DWB or is your service truck / van a bit past its prime?

One thing to consider in the case of big socialite houses in high rent districts is the occasional but vitally important need to be able to comfortably entertain a bunch of folks - part of the new rich lifestyle.

Adding 40-50 people standing around gabbing to a typical heat load has a considerable impact. Add to that the circulation of those people arriving, departing through exterior doors and in / out of pool areas, courtyards, etc. Those gigs will involve either or both of catering or heavy cooking in a fancy pro-style kitchen (Viking six burner gas range, etc). Lots of infiltration, internal loads, etc. That the house is economical and comfy the other 99% of the time is poor consolation to Mrs. Big-deal socialite when her party dies of heat prostration.

Similar considerations apply to churches - lots of folks once or twice a week, empty otherwise. In the case of churches, must also consider type of worship - is it the sit quietly and listen to a sermon, pray, sing a little and leave (New England Episcopalians) variant or a southern full gospel roll around on the floor getting saved kind of congregation, which may triple the load per participant?

But I digress.

Back to the OP's issue of very tight high footage per ton homes and the difficulty of getting the typical HVAC contractor out of his 500 SF per ton box - this is precisely why I'm looking to get into the biz - my builder runs into this all the time with his ICF houses - He can't find a residential HVAC contractor willing to do geo and pay proper attention to Manuals J, D, S, and T in the course of system design. Mostly they won't design at all - they'll do whatever they normally do, and that not particularly well.

Posted By 183eej on 09/19/2008 10:53 PM


$2000 tax credit for geothermal? I must admit I work in the industry (tax software) and hadn't heard. I heard rumblings of renewing the previous energy efficiency bill, but that one interests me. Any extra information about the proposal? Specifically, I'd be interested in it for myself if it's a refundable credit / or could carry forward (with 3 kids, stay at home wife, and closing costs, I'm probably looking at appearing to run at a loss as far as the IRS calculations go).

Posted By senecarr on 09/22/2008 11:22 AM

Posted By senecarr on 09/22/2008 3:03 PM
I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope it doesn't ask me to first calculate other lines on my 1040.
Actually I guess it might come before the child tax credit. It seems to me that a non-refundable credit isn't going to be the best thing for this kind of thing. The people that could use the economic help probably won't have enough taxes to utilize the credit, while the people that do, probably have enough cash to do it just based on the personal economics. I guess I'll have to see if there's any carry forward if it's non-refundable.

Posted By 183eej on 09/22/2008 4:09 PM

That's probably right about the tax credit.  I am not entirely clear on this but I think the renewable energy rebate is a check.  I'm also not clear if it comes from DOE or the IRS but, if I'm right, the $3K would directly help the folks who are suffering the most.

Posted By Brock on 09/23/2008 12:56 AM
Since we just built it amazed me you can't claim that credit if it is new. It has to be replacing an existing system. I thought about installing electric baseboards, then say I upgraded it... So basically they are discouraging it in new systems, maybe they figure a new furnace is ok but they want the old energy hogs gone?

Posted By Brock on 09/23/2008 12:56 AM
Since we just built it amazed me you can't claim that credit if it is new. It has to be replacing an existing system. I thought about installing electric baseboards, then say I upgraded it... So basically they are discouraging it in new systems, maybe they figure a new furnace is ok but they want the old energy hogs gone?