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Am I crazy not to go to GT
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 24 Mar 2009 08:38 AM |
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Buckeye, A geo system- Water source or DX raises everybody's electric bill. It simply doesn't raise it as high as the gas bill it disposes of. Sorry to hear nobody will bid the job for you, try some manufacturer's websites to find the local experts. You may not have a large geo push in your area. The equipment manufacturer's will direct you to the distributers, who will then direct you to individual dealers. j |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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buckeyegreen
 New Member
 Posts:18
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| 31 Mar 2009 10:03 PM |
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should I go geo?
I now have two geo quotes, one water based (3 ton for my upstairs unit) and one DX quote for both my units (2 1/2 + 3 ton). Way more than I expected. Since my house was built 12 yrs ago, here are actual energy usage:
Electric $11,610 (158171 kwh) avg $.0734/kwh, avg 13,180kwh/yr avg $967/yr Oil $11,140 (6964 gal) Avg $1.60 gal - avg 580 gal/yr = avg $928/yr Pellets $2,250 (532 bags) avg $4.23 bag avg 76 bags/yr avg $322 /yr
The pellet stove has saved me 100 gallons of oil per year over the last 7 years, as compared to the previous 5 years of only oil usage.
1. The water based geo quote is $20,000 for the upstairs 3 ton unit, no desuperheater. The oil boiler will stay as backup heat. Price also includes me doing ductwork mods and electrical. My pellet stove heats most of the downstairs. I expect my electric usage to increase slightly due to the geo compressor running year round, but my savings will come from reduced oil usage, how much is uncertain.
case 1: assume Oil usage reduced 75%. I will use 145 gal oil (save to supplement the downstairs heat, plus the pellet heat for downstairs, geo for upstairs. Oil savings = 435 gal, avg = $696 pellets = same electric = I'll assume the same, but will be higher. Payback = 29 yrs, oil at average price Payback = 23 yrs, oil at current $2.00 /gal payback = 15 yrs, oil at $3 gal average payback = 11.5 yrs oil at $4 gal average Payback = 9 yrs, oil at $5 gal average payback = 7.6 yrs, oil at $6 gal average
case 2: assume oil usage reduced 60% I will save 348 gal, avg = $557 pellets = same
electric = I'll assume the same, but will be higher.
Payback = 36 yrs, oil at average price
Payback = 29 yrs, oil at current $2.00 /gal
payback = 19 yrs, oil at $3 gal average
payback = 14 yrs oil at $4 gal average
Payback = 11.5 yrs, oil at $5 gal average payback = 9.6 yrs, oil at $6 gal average
both scenerios are with no interest. I don't have $20K to spend, so interest on a loan will increase these paybacks. At best, I expect 10 yrs before I save a dime.
2. DX geo system $31,000 replaces both AC units, but keeps the oil as backup. This does include an on demand hot water unit. price also includes me doing all ductwork mods and electric. My pellet stove will stay (I love it). I will again assume same electric usage. and assuming no interest.....
Assume 100% oil reduced (580 gal) pellets = same electric = I'll assume the same. Payback = 33.4 yrs, oil at average price Payback = 26.7 yrs, oil at current $2.00 /gal payback = 17.8 yrs, oil at $3 gal average payback = 13.3 yrs oil at $4 gal average Payback = 10.7 yrs, oil at $5 gal average payback = 8.9 yrs, oil at $6 gal average
the who things looks like a gamble on how high oil goes over the payback period. Either way electric usage will increase and the cost of electric will increase.
Another alternative I will consider, is another pellet stove to help heat the upstairs. At $3500 and a self install, I think this might be an attractive alternative. I now have a KWH meter on my pellet stove, so it will be interesting to get that aspect. If I put in a geo system I will also put in an energy monitoring system on it.
My biggest hangup is that 12 yrs ago I bought AC systems at $600 per ton. The DX quote is $6000 per ton. I find these prices outrages.
Thoughts?
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 01 Apr 2009 09:24 AM |
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According to your numbers the pellet stove saves you 100 gals of oil/yr ($160 avg year) but costs you $322???? Did you mean 1000 gallons? Yours is a situation that grinds me about some of my peers....Why use multiple appliances when zones could achieve same result. That's why your system is so expensive to replace. The only way geo can win against solid fuel burners is if you factor a wage for your time. If your time is worth nothing then the above figures are fair except... If you were to take the 31,000 and subtract the $3,500 you are willing to spend on another pellet stove and the $9,300 in tax credits your balance is about $18,000. So your payback time is a bit skewed. You also want to throw in some less tangibles such as; safer, in some areas lower insurance rates (for getting rid of the solid fuel), quieter, more comfortable, more even and you can stay in your chair and not tote rabbit food around. Your final note comparing an air conditioner to a geo system with excavation, duct modification, significant electric work, and significant winter savings as well as the summer cooling, is a little like comparing a bicycle to a car. Geo isn't for everybody and certainly many in my area, with the auto companies flagging, have more time than money. They shovel pellets, corn, wood or anything that will burn because they can't afford to heat their homes otherwise. Given the choice though most would prefer not to do the leg work; those folks buy geo. Others see it as a reduction of their carbon footprint; taking electricity that is already manufactured at a surplus and shutting down their smoke belching oil and solid fuel burning equipment. The kind of money involved makes careful scrutiny of the purchase necessary. No one will blame you for it. I'd suggest a third opinion before deciding on anything. Good Luck, Joe |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Masoud
 Basic Member
 Posts:180
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| 02 Apr 2009 12:05 AM |
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Buckeyegreen,
I like it when people have actual energy use data. It is hard evidence. I see Joe's concern about the discrepancy associated with your pellet use and the amount of oil it has replaced. Were you referring to 40# bags of wood pellets each ≈ 344,000 btu vs 139,000 btu for a gal of oil? Based on your info given above, you have used an average of 680 gal oil equivalent, or 94.5 million btu for heat per year. At an assumed 80% boiler efficiency your average annual heating load is 75.6 million btu delivered to the house, disregarding any possible use of oil for heating domestic hot water. Asking with diffidence, as I am not a pro, wouldn't the current heating load be better met by a 3 ton geo rather than the 5.5 ton estimate . I say this because my house's annual heating load was estimated at 87 million btu. A 3 ton system was more than enough to keep it at 70˚, last winter in Michigan.
You mentioned that you expected your electricity usage to increase slightly due to geo ... For heating you will replace each gallon of oil with about 8 kwh of electricity, assuming oil boiler efficiency of 80% vs geo cop of 4.
Can you take advantage of federal and possibly state incentives to lower net costs of geo?
Regards, Masoud |
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buckeyegreen
 New Member
 Posts:18
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| 02 Apr 2009 10:53 PM |
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Joe I'll have to go back and check my pellet numbers, but I believe that is right. yes, 40# bags. I have been burning more pellets the last couple yrs with a reduction in my oil usage.. The first 5 or 6 years, oil was dirt cheap, so it skews the average price. The difference is I kept the temp lower before the pellet stove. The one room, at the end of the duct run was always cool, but is now nice and warm with pellets. I have a 3rd company coming next week for another DX system. So far the first two have just quoted my the price, no breakdown of the actual equipment, etc. I will press them for it, just have been too busy.
I also realize my calc's do not take into account the stimulus tax rebate, or whatever they call it, because that is a bonus to get people to spend.
Sorry for jumping into someone else's thread here, I guess I should have started my own..
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