does geothermal pay?
Last Post 18 Oct 2009 08:56 AM by jonr. 28 Replies.
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jonrUser is Offline
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02 Oct 2009 10:05 PM
While a Passive House design does get the heating/cooling costs for a 2000 sq ft house to < $300/year (impressive), the cost isn't so clear. If it is the mentioned +10% of total building cost, that doesn't look so good.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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05 Oct 2009 06:29 AM
I'm not convinced the 9K difference adds up. Most of the new modulars are pretty well insulated and easy to heat. With little geo experience, it is likely you are over sizing system running up installation cost and operating cost.
What is the man J load, nearest major city and cost/kw of electricity? Is this really a modular or a manufactured home?
Let's check your data before trying to draw conclusions from it.

twice as much? 9k more? mine was priced at 4 times as much (almost 30000 more)! Granted it came with AC and duct work (baseboard in the home).
Mat
Mat,
Are you really comparing a complete heating/cooling and duct system to a boiler change out? You even qualify your statement as flawed ("granted it came with AC.....). An honest assesment would compare this system to a fossil system with ductwork.
Luck to all,
Joe
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05 Oct 2009 02:06 PM
Posted By Ona on 10/02/2009 2:22 PM

J08M3 ~ I did not take it personally, just wanted to get on my soap box  :o)

 

Dana1 ~ while my carbon footprint did play into my decision in selecting geothermal (with respect to environmental considerations), it was by far not my only environmental consideration.  I will admit that I am a moderate environmentalist (even though it appears to have become a negative term over the past 9 years).  But I have not jumped on the “climate change is the MOST important environmental factor” bandwagon.  Don’t get me wrong, I know and understand that climate change is scientific fact, but there are several other air quality issues which have direct human health impacts which I considered.

 

SO2 (sulfur dioxide), NOx (nitrogen oxides) and PM (particulate matter) have been proven to result in negative health effects like asthma, heart attacks, and other respiratory diseases/issues.  Using fuel oil resulted in higher SO2, NOx and similar PM.  If I convert my btu’s to the equivalent amount of natural gas, it would result in higher NOx and PM.  This info coupled with the fact that my State (New York) gets most of its electricity from hydro, nuclear and gas led me to the local decision of geo.  In addition, I do not have natural gas available to me in my rural home.

 



The particulate emissions of NG in a modern heating system burner is miniscule- fears of acute health hazards related to NG particulates in ANY case should be relegated primarily to cooking burners & unvented hot water heaters (the latter of which is mostly illegal in the US, but common in parts of Europe), where the emissions are larger and occur inside of conditioned space, where the dilution factor is lower.

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/ees.2007.0188

Acute health issues related to particulate emissions from heating systems may be a (secondary) issue in high-density housing in cities, but never in rural areas, or even postage stamp lot single family housing, where the outdoors dilution factor is still quite huge.

Similarly, the NOx emissions of newer condensing heating-appliance burners is a small fraction of that of old-skool burners, and less of a localized acute health issue than cooking burners & unvented HW heaters.  For condensing burners it's already down to under 50ppm for many (from 150-200ppm in the good old dayz), with regulation limits targeting 15-30ppm already under consideration in CA:

http://www.aqmd.gov/pub_edu/notice_1111_Sept_9_09.html

If you care about acute local NOx, CA-compliant burners would a the place to start looking.  But I'm not sure the grid-average for NY gas burning turbines (or the concrete that went into the hydro-dams & nukes) is low enough that it's a clear argument that geo has a broad overall lower NOx emission than heating with NG. (It might or might not.)

But the real deal is, you're not on a gas main, and therefore never on the table for you. (Whereas some here are trying to get a handle on geo vs. NG option, which is what I was addressing.)

Gas might have been lower cost all around, with better energy price security than oil/propane, as is the price security on your less fossil-dependent local grid (now that we're in the post-acid rain control era). This makes geo a more reasonable & green option for you compared do say, someone in Salt Lake City where NG is cheap, and the grid is heavily coal-fired, (even though the cost of operation is lower for geo there than even their cheap NG.) In SLC the upfront cost of geo is higher, and verditude lower, by any emissions standard.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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06 Oct 2009 07:23 AM
I'm not convinced the 9K difference adds up. Most of the new modulars are pretty well insulated and easy to heat. With little geo experience, it is likely you are over sizing system running up installation cost and operating cost.
What is the man J load, nearest major city and cost/kw of electricity? Is this really a modular or a manufactured home?
Let's check your data before trying to draw conclusions from it.

Second askin'

Can't answer your questions if you don't answer mine.
J
Joe Hardin
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We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
Dana1User is Offline
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06 Oct 2009 04:46 PM
Posted By joe.ami on 10/06/2009 7:23 AM
I'm not convinced the 9K difference adds up. Most of the new modulars are pretty well insulated and easy to heat. With little geo experience, it is likely you are over sizing system running up installation cost and operating cost.
What is the man J load, nearest major city and cost/kw of electricity? Is this really a modular or a manufactured home?
Let's check your data before trying to draw conclusions from it.

Second askin'

Can't answer your questions if you don't answer mine.
J

I'm curious as well- what kind of peak loading ARE we talking about here?

(In my ~7000HDD neighborhood "only" a 9kUSD adder for geothermal vs. either condensing or non-condensing hot air would be quite the bargain! :-) )

Right-sizing is more critical with geo than fossil fired stuff, where oversizing it 3x will add a grand, maybe two up front.  Oversizing geo 3x costs dearly in unnecessary drilling/excavation.  Oversizing geo also cuts significantly into efficiency/operating cost.  The case is less clear for condensing hot-air efficiency losses at only 3x oversizing, but it's murder on non-modulating boiler efficiency.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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07 Oct 2009 11:26 PM
been a while since author contributed........may not be interested in an answer.
j
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
engineerUser is Offline
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08 Oct 2009 04:31 PM
It wouldn't be the first time the community here is more interested in an issue than the OP.
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16 Oct 2009 02:13 PM
Ona,

"SO2 (sulfur dioxide), NOx (nitrogen oxides) and PM (particulate matter) have been proven to result in negative health effects like asthma, heart atta..."

I live 30 to 50 miles downwind of two 1,000 mega watt coal plants.  I think people are concerned about CO2 to the point of neglecting the unfashionable pollutions you mention (SO2, NOx, PM).  I question the sanity of burning 30% more coal (and releasing 30% more SO2, NOx, and PM) and flattening 30% more mountains, just to be able to store CO2 underground.

And to the original topic... when I did the calculations, a geothermal system (ground source heat pump) did not payoff compared to a simple air source heat pump.  But I bought a geothermal system anyway.
building an off grid timberframe home...<br>massiehouse.blogspot.com
jonrUser is Offline
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18 Oct 2009 08:56 AM
If air quality is a concern, I would look carefully at the materials used and stored in the house and then at the air changes per hour. Indoor pollutant levels are typically many times higher than outdoors.

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