Waterfurnace Synergy 3d
Last Post 12 Mar 2010 01:50 PM by Spruce Lake. 46 Replies.
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Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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21 Nov 2009 10:12 PM
Dewayne Dean

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Spruce LakeUser is Offline
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22 Nov 2009 09:13 AM
Posted By joe.ami on 11/21/2009 8:20 AM
Posted By Stonelake on 11/20/2009 11:32 AM
We are looking at the Synergy 3D. I don't like what I'm hearing!! We like the idea of in floor heat with our earth tied SIPS home. Would like to hear more about it's power consumption, and performance. What about price? We were quoted $25,000 installed, which does not include the ground prep ( insulation, wire, etc.) !!




At the risk of beating a dead horse, your contractor is the most important link in this purchase. Equipment fails, that doesn't suprise anyone, but not being able to get it serviced does. Check references, ask local building department, check years in business......
Good Luck,
Joe


But bad things can happen  to good people (i.e. divorce or illness).  And the end user who is left holding the bag (with no service) when/if things go bad.  WF need to help solve any single point of failure .... your installer being one.

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22 Nov 2009 11:16 AM
Posted By Spruce Lake on 11/22/2009 9:13 AM
Posted By joe.ami on 11/21/2009 8:20 AM

 

At the risk of beating a dead horse, your contractor is the most important link in this purchase. Equipment fails, that doesn't suprise anyone, but not being able to get it serviced does. Check references, ask local building department, check years in business......
Good Luck,
Joe


But bad things can happen  to good people (i.e. divorce or illness).  And the end user who is left holding the bag (with no service) when/if things go bad.  WF need to help solve any single point of failure .... your installer being one.



"But" is the worst first word in an argument as it opens the door for other buts and what ifs......what if the manufacturer goes out of business.....but lightning could strike my heat pump......
If you are suggesting that the installer is not the most important component in your purchase I'm interested in that conversation.

If you did your due diligence when you hired your contractor, then his absence will likely create a vacuum that others are eager to fill, find out who the new local rep is and you will have the ally you need to help with warranties. Warranties are legally binding, but you'll have to sort out whether you and your contractor satisfied the terms.

To the OP and other shoppers: Serious complaints about WFI (whose products I don't carry by the way) are in another thread that has ~1/2 dozen complaints spanning a decade. As 1 of the biggest geo manufacturers, I think that speaks more to their quality than shortcomings. Often homeowner/manufacturer direct correspondence will be met by a form letter to call your dealer as the manufacturer has a responsibility to 1) not interfere with contractor/customer relations and 2) avoid inadvertantly referring a customer of mine to a competitor.

So my advice again to folks is to make sure you are comfortable with your installer and you will have the greatest chance of satisfaction. Things less impactful on your experience are price, brand, type, buts and what-ifs.
Good Luck,
J
Joe Hardin
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Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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22 Nov 2009 02:36 PM

The problem is WF's desired business model calls for relationships exclusive to certified WF installers, and, expecting these installers to handle all interaction with consumers.  Consumer questions and requests for help, direct to WF, will thus be mostly ignored.

Examples include dificulty with consumer queries via email, and direct-from-consumers warranty claim requests.

In fact, if you look closely at WF's touted 10 year all-inclusive warranty, you'll see that the warranty is actually between WF and the installing contractor, not the consumer.  And thus, absent the installing contractor, it's tough for a consumer to get a warranty claim beyond the factory offered standard one year.

Not all HVAC manufacturers have this business model, but many do.  White Rogers is another example.  Their 5 year tstat warranties are actually only between them and an HVAC professional installer, not the end consumer.

There are pluses and minuses to HVAC manufacturers having a business model like WF does.  Obviously they avoid the costs associated with direct consumer support.  And obviously they endure some elevated amount of consumer unhappiness, as the consumer is highly dependent on the (variable) skills of the installing contractor exclusively.

I believe the easiest way to get help is to get assistance from another certified WF installer, if one is available / nearby.  I believe chances are good a different WF certified installer can figure out win-win solutions.  And certainly understands the process for warranty claims, and will get WF's proper attention.

Another possible way to get good help, with perhaps less odds of success though, is to find out who WF's applicable Territory Manager is, contact this person, and ask for help.

Good luck.

Best rest regards,

Bill

 

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href="http://www.americaneei.com">
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Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
Spruce LakeUser is Offline
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22 Nov 2009 03:06 PM
Posted By joe.ami on 11/22/2009 11:16 AM
Posted By Spruce Lake on 11/22/2009 9:13 AM
Posted By joe.ami on 11/21/2009 8:20 AM

 

At the risk of beating a dead horse, your contractor is the most important link in this purchase. Equipment fails, that doesn't suprise anyone, but not being able to get it serviced does. Check references, ask local building department, check years in business......
Good Luck,
Joe


But bad things can happen  to good people (i.e. divorce or illness).  And the end user who is left holding the bag (with no service) when/if things go bad.  WF need to help solve any single point of failure .... your installer being one.



"But" is the worst first word in an argument as it opens the door for other buts and what ifs......what if the manufacturer goes out of business.....but lightning could strike my heat pump......
If you are suggesting that the installer is not the most important component in your purchase I'm interested in that conversation.

If you did your due diligence when you hired your contractor, then his absence will likely create a vacuum that others are eager to fill, find out who the new local rep is and you will have the ally you need to help with warranties. Warranties are legally binding, but you'll have to sort out whether you and your contractor satisfied the terms.

To the OP and other shoppers: Serious complaints about WFI (whose products I don't carry by the way) are in another thread that has ~1/2 dozen complaints spanning a decade. As 1 of the biggest geo manufacturers, I think that speaks more to their quality than shortcomings. Often homeowner/manufacturer direct correspondence will be met by a form letter to call your dealer as the manufacturer has a responsibility to 1) not interfere with contractor/customer relations and 2) avoid inadvertantly referring a customer of mine to a competitor.

So my advice again to folks is to make sure you are comfortable with your installer and you will have the greatest chance of satisfaction. Things less impactful on your experience are price, brand, type, buts and what-ifs.
Good Luck,
J

I am thinking service AFTER the install is more important than the install.  Regardless of who does the service.  There's  no risk of a freeze-up during the install (since you never had heat).  The PITA factor of an outage can not be understated.  And if your installer is in Cancun or Aruba the week in February (perhaps for the WF installer-boon-dogle) when your unit dies, you're in a world of pain.  You can't just pick-up the part at the local supply house or open the yellow pages the way you can with conventional systems.

FWIW, I considered all this before I bought. Built back-ups into my system.  And now use a great refrigeration contractor for the service.  I just didn't expect the maintenance costs to consume the entire annual savings 3 years in a row.  Not when I was told WF had a 10 year warranty.
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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22 Nov 2009 04:46 PM
Posted By Spruce Lake on 11/22/2009 3:06 PM ... And now use a great refrigeration contractor for the service.  I just didn't expect the maintenance costs to consume the entire annual savings 3 years in a row.  Not when I was told WF had a 10 year warranty.
My guess is since you're not using a WF supported person for service, your 10 year warranty is now a 'sunk cost.'

Said alternatively, I believe if you were to use a WF supported person for service, you'd be able to still get pretty good value from your 10 year warranty, even though the person doing the service isn't the original installer.

Best regards,

Bill

Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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22 Nov 2009 06:05 PM
My experience with Water Furnace technical support is mixed. Two separate issues, one, an intermittent scenario where no dampers would open but one or both zones were calling for AC. They guy worked with me via E-Mail and on the telephone. I tried his suggestion and damn if he was not right! There is a zapped port on the Intellizone. The second issue is not so promising... There is a design flaw in the Envision vertical unit. The evaporator coil is mounted high in the cabinet, within about 1/4" of the top sheet metal. There is a sheet of insulation mounted under the top of the unit. The condensate from the top of the evaporator coil seeps into the insulation, it gets saturated and the water flows down into the power box for the AUX heat, and then down the interior and exterior (front) of the chassis. I reported the issue, and it is OBVIOUSLY a design issue, but no response. It's the "no response" that bugs me the most. Makes me nervous to keep promoting WF to my custom home clients. Water and electricity are not the best of friends. I saw that on a propane gas commercial...
joe.amiUser is Offline
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22 Nov 2009 08:00 PM


So my advice again to folks is to make sure you are comfortable with your installer and you will have the greatest chance of satisfaction. Things less impactful on your experience are price, brand, type, buts and what-ifs.
Good Luck,
J
I am thinking service AFTER the install is more important than the install.  Regardless of who does the service.  There's  no risk of a freeze-up during the install (since you never had heat).  The PITA factor of an outage can not be understated.  And if your installer is in Cancun or Aruba the week in February (perhaps for the WF installer-boon-dogle) when your unit dies, you're in a world of pain.  You can't just pick-up the part at the local supply house or open the yellow pages the way you can with conventional systems.

FWIW, I considered all this before I bought. Built back-ups into my system.  And now use a great refrigeration contractor for the service.  I just didn't expect the maintenance costs to consume the entire annual savings 3 years in a row.  Not when I was told WF had a 10 year warranty.

If you consider service after the install to be more important than the install, then doesn't it support my point that who you buy the equipment from is the most important thing?
I've sold many brands of heat pump and serviced others, in no case has an end consumer had to call the manufacturer for repairs. They had me.
If you care most about carping about WFI go to the manufacturer responsibility thread. If you care most about a proper functioning system answer our questions here and the other forum and we'll see if we can help.
j
Joe Hardin
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We Dig Comfort!
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22 Nov 2009 09:29 PM
Service after the install is well back in second place behind getting a proper design and installation to start with. If major mistakes are made during the design and installation such as an inadequate loop or mis-sized unit or pee-poor ductwork, the only options during "service after the install" are expensive and disruptive - rip and replace or re-digging up the yard.

A properly designed and installed system should require only minimal "service after the install"
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
Spruce LakeUser is Offline
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23 Nov 2009 01:01 PM
I owe somebody here a "thank-you" ... got this EMAIL this afternoon:

[QUOTE]
We were made aware of the thread you posted on GreenBuildingTalk.com. We are sorry to hear of your situation, and would like to look into these issues, and help you resolve them. Can you provide us with the model and serial numbers of your equipment? Once we have this information, we can access your warranty records and contact you to discuss a resolution.



Thank you in advance for your time, and allowing us the opportunity to assist you.



Sincerely,





Nicole Dodane

Consumer Relations Specialist

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[/QUOTE]

WaterFurnace is working with my repairman who is at the house today with the reversing valve. And setting me up with another installer. I'll contract him foro the annual maintenance and ask him the questions you all have pointed out (I can't answer most of them).

Nicole did say my warranty has "expired" ... looks like another "gift" from Dave Cardill (who - i've learned - is now working with Donwel Heating in Ottawa Canada).

Thank-you!
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23 Nov 2009 10:18 PM
Wow - that's quite a turnaround!
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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24 Nov 2009 07:36 AM
So there is another local Water Furnace dealer/installer. Was he not on their websites dealer finder? Had you ever contacted any of the dozens of retailers in your area listed on their web site?
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but if your first step was to complain to HQ vs try to get the assisstance of a local pro then you likely cost yourself lots of time.
j
Joe Hardin
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We Dig Comfort!
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Spruce LakeUser is Offline
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24 Nov 2009 03:50 PM
Joe,

I tried the "other" installer/dealer back in March (motherboard failure) and was told he'll only service what he installed. My AWOL rep once explained that this is an "unwritten code" amoung installers ... not to intrude on another's territory. Besides - he explained - you never know if the customer "stiffed" the installer and is now shopping the maintenance because he's in a bind. Also this is a pretty rural territory ... really not two of anything out here.

FWIW, I was reffered to the refrigeration guy via my AWOL installer .... he was on Christmas break (in Canada with his parents) when the Jan 2008 failure (reversing valve) occurred.

To WF credit, they contracted the new rep explained the deal. He's coming out next week. The reversing valve is replaced. FHA works great. Radiant tubes are over pressurized ... leaking from the high pressure valve and back-flow valve. Shut them down until the rep takes a look.

So here's one for all you installers ... Who backs you up? Who do you call when you can't take a customer call?  Or do they just wait?
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24 Nov 2009 07:39 PM
So here's one for all you installers ... Who backs you up? Who do you call when you can't take a customer call?  Or do they just wait?

Those are very important questions.
Here's some for homeowner's before purchase.
Am I dealing with a 1-2 man operation? How long have you been in business?
Do you have references I can check out?
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24 Nov 2009 08:57 PM
Posted By Spruce Lake on 11/24/2009 3:50 PM
Joe,

I tried the "other" installer/dealer back in March (motherboard failure) and was told he'll only service what he installed. My AWOL rep once explained that this is an "unwritten code" amoung installers ... not to intrude on another's territory. Besides - he explained - you never know if the customer "stiffed" the installer and is now shopping the maintenance because he's in a bind. Also this is a pretty rural territory ... really not two of anything out here.

First off let me start by saying I appreciate your calm response to my questions. I'm really not attacking you, I simply have the same reservations as the other water furnace servicer. Since we here do not know what we don't know, we do not assume everything is as you explain it. Plenty of folks go off half cocked and attack folks who are giving them reasonable service at a reasonable price. There are also folks who pick the lowest bidder and then complain that they do not get premium service (from their installers or the competitors he underbid). That said if you are willing I would love to hear the process that made you choose your installer. What was the response from his references, how many jobs had he done? How long was he in business in your area?....
FWIW, I was reffered to the refrigeration guy via my AWOL installer .... he was on Christmas break (in Canada with his parents) when the Jan 2008 failure (reversing valve) occurred.

So in fairness we must conced he made provisions to service your needs in his absence.
To WF credit, they contracted the new rep explained the deal. He's coming out next week. The reversing valve is replaced. FHA works great. Radiant tubes are over pressurized ... leaking from the high pressure valve and back-flow valve. Shut them down until the rep takes a look.

We must also conced at the end of the day that WF is stepping up even if your contractor didn't. Overpressurized tubes definately aren't their fault.

So here's one for all you installers ... Who backs you up? Who do you call when you can't take a customer call?  Or do they just wait?

To answer this question and the follow up comment, I can tell you that I run a small shop and if I don't have anyone to cover my customers' need, I don't vacation.
Again SL, if you did your due dilligence tell us. If not let your experience caution those who see this. Most importantly let's give hats off to WFI for manning up whether they owe you anything or not.
J

Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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24 Nov 2009 09:18 PM
Posted By 3girls4me on 11/17/2009 6:19 AM
So after a day with the aux switched off at the main breaker box we only used 48kw, but the house was cold this morning house is set a 72f and only was 68f. So I switched the aux back on and house is heatiing up. Not showing the aux heat is on the. So can anyone explain to me in layman terms what is going on.\

Like stated before, i am curious how you could turn off the AUX breaker and have the unit still run.  Usually when an AUX heater in installed, the unit now runs it power through this unit. 
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25 Nov 2009 07:15 AM
I think what you mean to say is that blower and control power shares the aux circuit rather than the compressor circuit. Off the top of my head I don't no any reason why the blower and controls couldn't operate off the compressor circuit, except that an element of heating season reliability is lost - if compressor fails via a winding short to ground the circuit breaker would open. With blower and controls on that circuit there would be no way to operate in emergency heat mode.

I don't think I'd make that choice. I'd go for an automatic or manual aux heat lockout scheme that leaves unit blower and controls on aux circuit to preserve emergency heat. Compressor failures are infrequent, but replacement is fairly expensive and time consuming.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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25 Nov 2009 04:24 PM
Got lesson in the WF warranty process: WF warrantees the equipment they manufacture and assemble for 10 years. My two pieces were manufactured by GeoSmart and assembled by Waterfurance. So any equipment issues need to be warranteed by GeoSmart (wish I knew this back in March - motherboard failure - might have saved a few bucks). Called GeoSmart ... thier warrantee is 1 year external; 5 years internal; 10 years major refrigeration.

Joe,

Dave Cardill is second generation Geothermal ... his father is big in the Ottawa area. Dave was featured in a PBS segment featuring Geothermal around the time I was shopping this job. Price was not my biggest concern although a similar job was quoted around 30k with a sales rep involved. Cardill does his own "sales"; so I reasoned that I was saving a few $$ (~6k) cutting out the middle man (not sacraficing quality ... or so I thought). Would this have been different with some sales support ... maybe (I'ld have had another advocate).

FWIW, when pressing Cardill on back-up coverage - during the install - (he's also a 2 man operation), I got a similar answer to your's (I don't vacation). This is not a "shot over the bow" .... just had to smile when I read it.
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26 Nov 2009 08:39 AM
Dave Cardill is second generation Geothermal ... his father is big in the Ottawa area. Dave was featured in a PBS segment featuring Geothermal around the time I was shopping this job. Price was not my biggest concern although a similar job was quoted around 30k with a sales rep involved. Cardill does his own "sales"; so I reasoned that I was saving a few $$ (~6k) cutting out the middle man (not sacraficing quality ... or so I thought). Would this have been different with some sales support ... maybe (I'ld have had another advocate).

How many estimates did you recieve?
FWIW $6,000 would be considerably higher than my margin on most jobs.
j
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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26 Nov 2009 10:37 AM
One other quote ... 2 never returned my call (so I started with 4 names).

20% commision for the sales rep seemed pretty reasonable. I know some industries start in with a 33% commision.

FWIW, I am triing to move forward. The rear-view won't solve my current problems. Understanding the warranty process; customer support and a new rep might. That's the direction I am going.
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