I agree.
At some price point, it will be acceptable to do a job, and below that point it won't be worth it.

Wish me luck with my driveway sealing negotiations. LoL

Wish you luck.....I'm worried about your contractors.....lol

I feel bad for him too. :-)

Haha You guys are funny and smart.
Thanks for the erudite commentary. I get the general gist that it is more the contractor than the equipment, though there was some discussion earlier about some manufacturers being more reliable than others. What if both contractors look to be competent? What makes a contractor better than the other?
Geome suggested getting additional bids. The first contractor I contacted was a real dud. He said he represented WF, asked for a check for $165 to demonstrate my seriousness (and like a serious dummy I wrote and gave him the check) and never heard back from him. He never cashed the check; I put a stop payment on it and then called WF for a referral. They gave me the name of the WF contractor I got the quote from. Besides WF and Bryant who else might I consider for reliable equipment with a good reputation?
As for rebadged equipment, I am still a little dubious. It is a little like buying a car from a brand, whatever it might be, but actually made by another car company. If the car company actually making the car has a good reputation for quality, then there is no problem, but if they have a bad reputation, then you would want to stay as far away from them as possible. ClimateMaster probably has a good reputation. Why would I want to buy it through Bryant? Wouldn't I be better off buying it directly from cm? Would I pay more or less for the same equipment?
Thanks again.

Rebadge questions are fair. At one time Bryant warranties were shorter than CM. IMO they were relying on their name more than warranties. Meanwhile Heatcontroller out of Jackson MI re-labels CM and offers longer warranties than most brands (including CM).

You haven't mentioned a brand that I am compelled to suggest you avoid. I'm disinclined to name brands to avoid, but would say if you were considering one I thought would serve you poorly.
Get more bids if you like. Might I suggest you author your own thread so your experience is not buried 8 pages deep?
j

Posted By Gopher-Buckeye on 18 Aug 2010 10:45 PM
What makes a contractor better than the other?

You can look for some or all of these things:  Factory trained, experience with equipment to be installed, happy customers (that you will verify through referrals), proper unit sizing, good warranty, answers questions, responsive to problems, cute secretary, thoroughly explains work to be performed, completion of work in a timely manner, relevant certifications, good communication, performs heat of extraction and rejection calculations at system start-up and at service/maintenance visits (I do the calculations on our equipment myself since our installer doesn't do this unless there is a problem.)

You have to look at rebadged equipment carefully. Not that it isn't good but what parts are in it. Usually the mechanicals are the same but electronics is one area where there can be big differences. If the labeled equipment company goes belly up or drops brand a, can the oem board be fitted right in? do you need a new wiring harness? How much will that cost you and how equipped is the tech you have to do it?

Kenmore is all rebadged appliances but not all parts from maytag or westinghouse will work

Posted By Volleyball on 19 Aug 2010 09:23 AM
You have to look at rebadged equipment carefully. Not that it isn't good but what parts are in it. Usually the mechanicals are the same but electronics is one area where there can be big differences. If the labeled equipment company goes belly up or drops brand a, can the oem board be fitted right in? do you need a new wiring harness? How much will that cost you and how equipped is the tech you have to do it?

Kenmore is all rebadged appliances but not all parts from maytag or westinghouse will work

Fair enough. Can't speak for all geos, but rebadged CM's to my knowledge are not a problem.
I use Geo Excel (rebadged FHP) which has a modified circuit board and other sundry features, but in their abscence could still use parent product board.
J

Anyone here have any recommendations or referances for a geothermal installer in the Muskoka area of Ontario?

Try the igshpa website for a certified installer near you (international ground source heat pump assoc.)
good luck,
J

...... and I add the following at the bottom,

1) Contractors years in business, years in geo., references;
2) Manual J load, summer - winter.....;
3) Size proposed (in tons...................);
4) Is ductwork adequate to support system;
5) Warranties. "Limited Manufactures Warranties" are often not fully understood. (pro rated);
6) Refrigerant;
7) Proposed loop system (horiz.,vert., multipipe, etc.);
8) 1 or 2 stage;
9) Price, rebates and tax credits;
10) Brand, type (water source or Dx;
11) (ROI) "RETURN ON EQUITY" can no longer dismissed, including Private Residences. (large expense);


*** 35% to 70% energy cost $savings are promoted across the industry, compared to a conventional heating/cooling systems. (large spread);

"A good informed Customer is also a well respected Customer".

I was recently schooled in why a heat pump is not an investment- therefore there can be no return on investment....
Seriously, op cost calculations are at the root of most any geo purchase. Therefore I presumed it went unsaid. I've never had a customer ask about geo that didn't ask what it would save them.
If concensus is it needs to be listed, it's fine with me. I think #6 "refrigerant" is a non issue at this point as virtually every system employs R410 now (due to federal regulation) though a few DX systems have employed others. The issue of the soon to be discontinued R22 is moot. So op cost projections would fit neatly in a 10 point list.

Again my propensity for brevity compels me to keep the list short (though the 10 count is somewhat arbitrary).

Few places a geo shopper will go respect the consumer as much as this site and a shoppers' checklist that assumes a certain level of intelligence in it's readers.
j

Who schooled you as geo is not an investment? The average person looks at it that way. you pay up front to pay less later. Total cost will b e less. It is not an equity investment because I don't think buyers are willing to pay the premium. They'll gladly take the saving though. And until you sell, equity has little value except property taxes and loan rates.
Unless you look at things as never being on sale. Like you would never buy it at full price anyways.
I just saw a video on a new passive haas built in upstate ny. A $300k house built for $600k with all new technology. Supposedly you won't be paying hardly anything for heat/cool. Isn't that an investment?

It's just semantics. Our geothermal system saves us money compared to alternative heating and cooling methods, but some people wouldn't look at our purchase as an "investment" since the equipment depreciates (and possibly for other reasons.) All I know is that we are very happy with our purchase. 

A part time consumer watch dog with far more accounting education than me has proclaimed Geo systems are an expense.....not an investment. As Geome said it was really a semantical discussion the purpose of which was lost on me. Apparently the proper term would be ROE(xpense). I believe you could find it in the second to the last page of "why systems are so expensive".....
j

A home without a heating system, or one that wasn't working would surely depreciate. For many it would be more than the geo's cost to install. Why invest in remodeling a bath or kitchen? you won't get all your money out of it? At least a heating/cooling system will improve your health or at least slow down the deterioration that would occur. Most operations seem to cost more than a geo installation. So if you have one less operation, you are ahead of the game. A good investment in my book.

I tend to agree- I wasn't the axe grinder and may not be articulating their argument in the fashion it deserves.

........ based on the reply from joe. ami, (Veteran Member), my question was fully understood,
but unfortunately not answered.

Quote: > Seriously, op cost calculations are the root of most any geo purchase <. Therefore I presumed it went unsaid. I've never had a customer ask about geo that did not ask what it would save them...!

/.. What are the potential Costumers told by joe. ami, concerning > actual < > operational $savings < what it would save them?

........ why else would a consumer consider geo. After all, it's all about $savings. (short or longterm). It begs the question, how many Years does it take..............?.

(Based one 35% to 70% operational $cost savings compared to a "Conventional System" (Fossil Fuel) promoted across the Industry).

" based on the reply from joe. ami, (Veteran Member), my question was fully understood,
but unfortunately not answered....."

I wouldn't characterize the following as a question:
"11) (ROI) "RETURN ON EQUITY" can no longer dismissed, including Private Residences. (large expense);"

Therefore I commented in a way that jives with the original thread topic by inviting folks to indicate whether or not it should be added to the list...."If concensus is it needs to be listed, it's fine with me."

Your tone suggests an attempt on my (our) part to conceal info. May I remind you of the comment "Few places a geo shopper will go respect the consumer as much as this site and a shoppers' checklist that assumes a certain level of intelligence in it's readers."
I took the liberty of starting a thread (with your name in the title) to help you find the answers to your questions.
Good Luck,
j

It occured to me that it might be handy for a list of what to ask a contractor before hiring him/her for geo installation.
Just a few years ago geo consumers would educate themselves for months or years before buying. Now in the instant gratification age some folks are making the decision in less than a month. Often times these folks are heavily influenced by what I call "salesman's focus". By this I mean the salesman wants the customer to think "this" is important.
I once had a shopper ask what my desuperheater looked like?! Why would he ask? Likely a salesman had shown him a picture of the piping schematic and made it important.
Many manufacturers like to harp on efficency while most of us here agree they are all extremely close in operating cost. In fact most brands are similar enough that we encourage folks to focus on the contractor more than the brand.
I am hopeful that if we can create a comprehensive questionaire that we can persuede the mod to post it (sans my lengthy preamble). You guys can help me decide if we need seperate lists for heating/cooling dominated climates.
Guests arriving I'll leave it to you.


1) Contractors years in business, years in geo and references
2) Manual J load*, summer and winter design temps
3) Size proposed (in tons)/percent of load covered/balance point
4) Is ductwork adequate to support system
5) Warranties
6) Refrigerant
7) Proposed loop system (horiz, vert, multipipe,etc.)
8) 1 or 2 stage
9) Price, rebates and tax credits
10) Brand, Type (water source or DX)

*Someone who does not care to give you exact btu's (IOW a free load calculation) but measures the house and provides most of the other info. Should not be automatically disqualified, but should have this available to you at signing.

Anyone with a question about a specific item may PM me or any other pro.

Joe

This is truly a good check lists. We must know the essential information needed before purchasing one!! Appreciated your thought on posting this Joe!


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