I wouldn't be surprised if it was a replacement board as it didn't seem like the 4 corners of it were factory fastened (almost seemed like it had been apart before - I tighten the corners as 3 were pretty loose).  That being said though, no where in the manual does it have a Y2 slot pictured on the board, so I still wonder if it's not something simple...

I have a guy that I think would be a good one if I can get him to come out (I'm told he's very good at electrical, plumbing, and heating by some industry pros)....how do people normally handle this sort of stuff?  Is most labor "warrantied"?  This same guy I watched (and his 2 helpers) try and figure out for several hours why a pump wouldn't work right....turns out he had a 26-99 (220V) pump trying to run off a 110V switching relay.  I'm starting to wonder what else might be screwed up...is the ground loop purged right?  I thought these units came "pre charged", yet they added tons of refrigerant, then bled a bunch back out.  They blew something up (fuse) as indicators on the heat exchanger are non-functional.  I also can't think it's normal for the suction line to get so hot that it would melt the styrofoam insulation on it. 

How important is the size of the suction line.  Book says to run 1 1/8" for 60'...I think this one is probably close to 80'.  My air temp from the air handler is 83 degrees...house is 62...I'm thinking that is a good rise, just not enough capacity running on 1st stage.  I just checked and have 15 amps per leg at the box and 9 amp per leg on the compressor.

I know they also clipped some of the things on the circuit board...I'm wondering if one might have been low temperature operation.  Is it normal for the return pipe on the unit to be all but frozen?  I'd swear mine's ready to split any second on the copper part...but I know with methanyl they are designed to run on low temperatures.

At this point I'd just as soon prefer not to have him back out, but don't feel like footing the bill to have someone else fix his work.  Paying these 3 stooges $100+ an hour to look cross-eyed at a pump gets old.  It's no wonder they always act like they are busy...they have a full time job just fixing their screw ups.

Get a pro out there and let him explore your design. Your 1st post made my eyes glaze over but I cauht the part where you designed it. You need some one to take responsibility for performance.
good luck.
joe

If you truly have a two stage unit, the board will have both Y1 and Y2.

HeatlessInHarrisburg

I know you are cold and and excited but take a step back and find a temporary (safe) heat source and get your family warm. This is not going to get fixed quickly especially over the internet. There has been too many fingers in the pie for me to figure out what is going on at first glance.

You will probably need to get a pro in anyway if only to get check valves between your ground loop pumppacks and ground loops and properly flush and purge the system. The check valves will prevent loop short circuiting through the HP that is off. A very short term fix would be to turn both pumppacks on when either unit calls.

When you mention this piece and that part please be specific what unit you are talking about.

It is easy to determine if you have a two stage compressor in the w-w unit. A Copeland 2 stage compressor has "K4E" before "-PFV" on the compressor model#. You might have to take off the side cover of the unit to see. A 2 stage compressor will also have the normal high voltage coming in on oneside and 2 low voltage wires coming in on the other side. Your Y2 search might be a red herring.

One other question. Is it possible the installer wasn't paid and they sabotaged the unit?

The unfortunate thing here is that the installer knew even less than the designer.
I agree with Joe that you need to first make your house warm and then try to save your geo system.
The only thing more expensive than hiring a real pro to fix this would be to keep bringing the installer out.
Occasionally I have customers with design ideas and I always tell them that one of us will design the system and that person will be responsible for performance. When you get a pro out there, ask him to start at the beginning with a heat loss calc and let him "own" the results of whatever repairs he (or she) suggests.
good luck,
j

where are you located? this sounds like a fun job to fix, If you were close to southern wisconsin I would come and fix it for you. It just amazes me what kind of work is being done out there these days.

Harrisburg...

Well, today I got some more answers...have a tech slated to come out Wednesday.

Yes, my contractor was paid...pretty handsomely in fact (I'm in about 30K to him just for 1 unit/ductwork/hooking stuff up), part of the reason it has me a bit peeved, and no, it's not intentionally sabatoged.  I should've put a wood gasification stove in with a Air Source HP like I had thought about.

The big thing I can figure out is why my 5 ton W-A unit is in 2nd stage, yet it's only drawing 15 amp of 220.  This is well below the 5500-6000W draw I am expecting, and I still don't think I am getting the BTU's I should be.  My unit NEVER turns off!  My delta on the forced air, measured at the air handler/return is around 18 degrees.

I did some looking, and noticed my suction line is pretty long...at least 75-80 feet (book only gives sizes for 20-60', recommends 1.125" @ 60'), and appears he used 7/8 or 1" lineset.  My liquid line appears to be undersized as well (book calls for 1/2", he used 3/8").

Another night...more questions than answers!

I strongly recommend you listen to joe.ami and get a pro to start from scratch. Wow...what a mess... Keep us informed.

ok, so I don't have everything resolved, but I at least got somewhere today.  My installer, whom I was hesitant to have out based on the amount of screw ups, came out today to verify some things are running properly.  To my surprise, most of the measurements were within reason.  Good news is the forced air unit is running properly, and is in 2nd stage.  The bad news is the CXM board on the radiant unit is a goner...new one is coming tomorrow.  I've asked him to do something about the loop field problem, and I think he's going to put some sort of actuater value on them so each side only opens when that pump pack is calling for flow.  I'm going to see to it that some of the pumps get remounted properly as well...not sure how he's going to do it, but I suppose he should've known better in the first place.  He did have one of his sidekicks along today (he right hand man)...I had to laugh when I started going over some expected values and he had no idea how many BTU's/CFM's there were in a ton, BTU's to a watt, etc.  I kinda wonder how they diagnose efficiency questions?  If I weren't persistant, and had my unit not crashed, they probably wouldn't have come back out.

Here are some of the measurements:
5 Ton Tranquility 27 split units - specs are here: http://www.climatemaster.com/share/Res_All_Products_CLM/Section_3_TT27.pdf

300 operating psi
36.0 - ground loop supply temp
32.1 - ground loop return temp
~39 psi on supply side
~32 psi on return side
based on these #'s, I'm calculating 19 gpm of flow (seems high, but my numbers seem to jive)

Conclusion:
With a 4 degree delta, 19 gpm flow, I'm calculating roughly 36,400 BTU's extracted from the ground loop.  I'm running roughly 15.5 amps of 220 plus the air handler, so I'm thinking I'm getting another 11,600 off the compressor (3400W*3.4), for a total load of 48,000 BTU's.  My house must be much more of an energy hog than I had envisioned, and my forced air unit was not very well designed or executed.    The ductwork trunks could've probably been put together a little better/insulated better, it doesn't help that they are all on the ceiling (forced air is for my cooling), air handler is in the attic (not my idea...I like losing heat in the living space!), and therefore the lineset is overly long (80+ feet).  Given all the above, I still find it hard to believe 50K BTU's can barely maintain temperature on my place.

The radiant unit he admitted was never in second stage as he never had the jumper was never hooked up to the "Y" connection on the board.  Apparently on earlier TTS 27 splits, there was no "Y2" 24V port...just a "Y" prong to the left of the board.  If that was the case (it was only in stage 1), it seems odd that they were pulling the same juice when it worked (it actually was pulling a little more (~16 amps).  The radiant unit alone did a pretty good job of heating the place, even with sustained 20-30 mph winds on ~10 deg days.  If it was in 1st stage, that unit should provide more than enough heat to get the job done.

Still a few remaining unanswered questions:
Are ~35-38 deg ground loop temps common for central PA?  Seems like it should be a little higher.  I have 8-800'x3/4 slinkeys in 8-100' trenches 6' deep.  I knew it wouldn't be as efficient as open loop or vertical, but didn't think there would be THAT much difference...that's about 10 degrees less than most verticals I've heard of.  I wasn't sure if low pressures might cause it to not use the entire loop field?  My operating pressures (32/39 psi) are well below the 50-75 static pressures recommend in the manual.  I'll have to check on the radiant side since it's not currently running.

It seems the more flow the better (I would've thought the opposite).  At 19 gpm of flow, it seems even at that very low supply temp, my unit is very efficient (48000/3900=12.3/3.4=3.62 COP?).  If my numbers are right, that falls almost EXACTLY in line with pg 67 of the booklet (Performance Data)...expected value is 3.65 COP.  Is it safe to say that the faster you pump the water, the higher the COP at the sacrifice of extra pumping power?

I'm looking forward to getting this radiant unit again so this will be case closed!  I got a WEL logger awhile back...time to find time to get it hooked up.

There is a happy medium between pumping power and flow vs COP. You may be slightly overpumped, but not enough to worry about.

Rules of thumb are not popular here, but as long as your EWT is within +/- 20 deg of your deep ground temp and sufficient loop fluid is flowing to the unit(s) then your system is fine.

I'm too lazy right now to go look at a deep ground temp chart right now, but Harrisburg likely has a deep ground temp in the low 50s, so any EWT in the range of 30-75 is excellent.

Now go work on the load side of the system - insulation and infiltration.

Just a couple of thoughts...

BTUh = 1.08 x cfm x delta T

If you have a way of accurately measuring cfm, you will determine more accurately what the BTUh output of the heat pump is.

Also, with the duct in the attic, your heat load is higher than just the house load because of duct loss. If your unit is putting out 50K BTUh, it may not cover the additional duct loss load... More than likely, it would be wise to insulate that duct system more.

There is a happy medium between pumping power and flow vs COP. You may be slightly overpumped, but not enough to worry about. *How do you adjust flow...most pump packs I saw either have a single or double pump. Rules of thumb are not popular here, but as long as your EWT is within +/- 20 deg of your deep ground temp and sufficient loop fluid is flowing to the unit(s) then your system is fine. * My EWT is about 16 degrees less than the 52 degree ground temp. Seems to me flowing faster is probably better when dealing with lower temperatures. If the water moved slower, I'd have a higher delta, and I'd think more possibly to freeze something up. Now go work on the load side of the system - insulation and infiltration. * I thought I was pretty well insulated in the house itself...used closed cell foam. I do have some work to do though, so we'll see. I have a lot of ductwork...wish it would've been in the basement so the loses would at least be in my house! Tuffluck - Thanks for the formula...I was wondering how you calc on forced air. It seems that my air handler is a 5 ton, 2000 CFM in 2nd stage * 18 deg delta * 1.08 = 39,000 BTU's...that's a good bit less than the 48,000 that the unit is putting out, but could be due to ductwork losses and my really long suction line. Not sure if that might account for the other 9,000 missing BTU's? It's no wonder that the radiant unit in first stage delivered as many BTU's as my radiant in 2nd stage since all my radiant heat was delivered to the living area. They also say you can turn the stat down 2-3 degrees with radiant...it's true!

Adjust flow by size and number of pumps. Some pumps have multiple speed settings;l really spiffy ones have variable frequency drives, though neither show up often in geo loop applications.

Long linesets decrease efficiency in several ways:

1) Friction losses owing to refrigerant movement through the lines
2) Thermal losses to the environment around the lineset, assuming it is not in the space desired to be conditioned
3) Cycling losses - longer linesets increase the interval between the unit starting and reaching rated heat transfer .

It is important to size linesets as manufacturer suggests to maintain unit efficiency and capacity; my guess though, would be that a lineset above 1 1/8" might be hard to find and really expensive

If your unit has an ECM blower with a controller in which CFMs are directly set by jumpers or switches, then you can rely on the CFM to within 5% or so IF your ductwork is such that static pressure across the unit is within design limits

A 4 ton nominal unit does not put out 48,000 btuh under all conditions. Manufacturers provide tables of actual outputs for a wide range of airside and waterside flows and temperatures. You can download those at their sites

Tuffluck mentioned "measuring the CFM. You should not take it for granted that 2000CFM is present simply because it should be.
(welcome back Clark, I was waiting for some shirt sizes from you and bro-in-law....going with "we dig comfort" on new shirts.)
j

I hope I clearly conveyed that via two "ifs..." in para. 5 above.

Engineer,

I think I might have found my problem on the forced air side.

My unit is actually a 5 ton, Tranquility 27.  Based on my EWT, LWT,  gpm, and amperage, I'm right on the chart at 48K BTU out of a 5 ton for heating purposes in stage 2.  I estimate that based on the delta of the system at the air handler, CFM's per unit ratings for second stage, I'm only capturing around 30K or so BTU's.  I'm thinking my actual heat loss on a normal day is around 30K BTU's, it's no wonder it was barely keeping up, and losing heat at night.  Being that my ducts are on the wall/ceiling probably doesn't help as the forced air unit is designed for cooling (nothing like putting the warm air at the ceiling to begin with!).  I'm thinking the forced air unit is only ever running in stage 1.

We got the radiant unit working a few minutes ago.
* The unit only ran before in 1st stage...he put the Y2 jumper on, so I should be able to easily get all my heat just from the 5 ton W-W unit.
* He had to replace the CXM board and add a little refrigerant.  He says there may be something wrong with the shrader (sp?) valve.  Apparently the unit's error code was low pressure.
* The W-W unit is drawing 15 amps on stage 1, 19 amps of stage 2, which is ~4560 watts in stage 2.  The part we don't understand is why the unit is drawing 220V on T1/T2, 240V on T1/T3, and 320V on T2/T3.  I believe the last one may be the one that goes between the compressor/capacitor.  My other unit (same exact unit but W-A) draws the same measurements, but only pulls 15 amp on the breaker (with it calling for 2nd stage heat).  Both have the same pump pack, same desuperheater, same tonnage, etc, but one draws a good bit more amps...I don't get it!  Could it be that my W-A unit is never running in 2nd stage for some reason since it's current amp draw is the same as my W-W when it was in stage 1.  That would also explain why I'm not producing the amount of heat I should be.  In stage 1, it's saying I'd be getting about 33.6K BTU's.  The air handler board is the only thing switching between stage 1 and 2...the unit is always in stage 1.  Could it be possible a fuse for stage 2 burnt up?
* The radiant unit seems to be working for the most part as expected as far as amp draw, EWT/LWT's, and psi.  The one thing I can't figure out, if why the dawg gone desuperheater is SO hot.  It's pulling water from my buffer tank (tank is around 95), but the water is reading through the pipe around 74 deg.  It's coming out at about 160.  We can feel a good bit of water being pulled out of the pump, so it doesn't appear to be a low flow issue.  He has it plumbed so it goes through the bottom unit (W-A), then the top unit (W-W), before returning.  If both units were on at the same time I could understand it would get pretty hot, but since only 1 unit should be on at a time I don't get it.  In winter, I was thinking a desuperheater only kicks out like 3% of the total unit's BTU's....I don't know the flow rate for sure, but mine has got to be kicking out way more than that.  Is 160 deg water normal?

While my installer is probably smarter than I give him credit for (and his HS grades), his inability to accurate measure performance before taking off had me pretty peeved.  He kept mentioning the size of my house as the reason both units ran rather than checking to see if there really might be a problem.  My inability to accept that answer, along with a burnt up pump, may have been the only thing that kept me from putting in an additional W-W unit (that I didn't really need since I was only running 60% capacity).  There is of a bit of a science to geothermal, but I think we're on the right track to being "another satisified geothermal customer".   I gotta give my installer credit for doing the right thing and getting my unit fixed and working right.  While I've got way more of an education of these units than I was hoping for, it will help me to give friends/family valuable insight.

HeatedInHarrisburg 

Power consumption on a w-w unit is strongly dependent on the output temperature (see data from my unit attached). if the LWT is higher than the air temp coming out of the W-A unit your power consumption will be higher. Even if the temperatures are similar I'm sure there would be differences in load just due to different heat exchangers etc. If your radiant isn't using some sort of reset control on the temperature, it should be. There are significant efficiency gains to be had by running the water temp as low as possible.

I'm not passing judgement on either unit - just trying to say that you can't compare them with each other - you should be looking at the specs at a specific loop and hydronic temperature.

If this is a R410 unit the desuperheater temps can be pretty high due to high discharge temps in heating mode. I see up to 240F right at the compressor.

Wow....take a breath! lol
If you're happy, we're happy......
I would caution you against one thing. Plenty of competant refrigeration mechanics are not going to pass your quizzes and the really sharp ones are going to be impatient with your grilling.
You simultaneously look down your nose at the man's education and knowledge while employing him. He continues to learn at your expense. Are you sure you haven't been outsmarted by the second slowest kid in the class?
I hope it is your frustration peeking through and not your regular demeanor, but you come off as an education snob. Plenty of talented mechanics can fix a refrigeration system or a car engine without being able to explain the physics of a system. Many tradesman learned OJT which isn't always accompanied by book knowledge.
j

I'm curious on the "adding a little refrigerant". With R410a being a refrigerant blend, you're not supposed to just 'top it off', right? Did they remove the refrigerant and replace it with new? Is he certain that's where the leak was? If not, why didn't he search it out, find it, and fix it?

One other point, as cnygeo points out, you really can't compare the W-W unit with a W-A unit. Geothermal water heating is almost always less efficient than air heating. Water temp. has a LOT to do with it. The point being, that the amp draw wouldn't necessarily mean anything at all in comparing the two units.

--Joe, things have been ultra slow for us, and it's been a little depressing to even consider looking at this site...good to be back. BTW, how busy are your drillers with geo?

cnygeo's graph is interesting, but without hydronic entering temperature, it is hard to say anything about the amount of heat being produced. I suspect that this is why you don't see much of a curve to the data.