Ona
Basic Member
Posts:189
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| 10 Feb 2010 03:45 PM |
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I am trying to get my home into a situation where a power outage is not a concern. I have geo heat, 3 ton WF 3 stage heat envision (038) with desuperheater. So, I'm thinking along two lines right now:
1) Get a large gasoline generator, install intellistart, and have a generator backup (no nat gas available and do not want to bring in fuel tanks).
2) Install a wood fireplace insert and get a small plug in generator to run some basics (including the insert fan).
I don't have a good understanding as to how much either method will cost, but from the gleaming I've done so far it seems like method 1 could run anywhere between $5K and $10K, while method 2 could run anywhere between $4K and $6K.
Anyone else have thoughts on this? Perhaps other ideas? Any better cost numbers?
This is a long way in the future, like after we insulate our basement, but I'd like to start thinking about my options now.
Thanks! |
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 10 Feb 2010 04:34 PM |
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I use a fireplace for back-up, with an eye towards a pellet stove insert as handling the wood is getting less and less apealing to my back. Genearators are great... but gas engines do not like to sit and not be used, then when you need it you get dissapointment. That is what makes lp run generators so popular. If you go te gas route I would reccomend one with a Honda engine. |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 10 Feb 2010 04:35 PM |
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Sounds like you will need to stock either wood, or gasoline under your current options. Are you sure you don't want to consider a propane tank? Last summer, I filled up our propane tank for $1.95/gallon. We have propane logs that we only use if the power goes out. Later, we will add a propane generator, but that isn't in the budget right now. Until then, we still have an emergency heat source. I don't have to cut, buy, or store wood, and I don't have to buy and store gasoline or go outside to pour it into a generator. I just push a button on the fireplace remote. Our fireplace only needs propane and 1 AAA and 5 or 6 AA batteries that I change once/year. It even has a thermostat on the remote. Guess you would still need the small generator to power your other basics.
Waterpirate, is Honda making propane (LP) generators again? I heard they stopped a while back for some reason. Is it ok to use an LP converion kit? |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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geotek
Basic Member
Posts:154
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| 10 Feb 2010 04:49 PM |
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Option 2 is probably the best if no other fuel is used. Better keep that generator small or your going to need a large gas can for a couple days or so without power. If you SHOP you should be able to get that for 3K or less |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 10 Feb 2010 05:36 PM |
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Do you take winter vacations? |
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 10 Feb 2010 06:39 PM |
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I do not think they have started with the lp again yet, My local honda engine mech as a dim view of the conversion route.
Eric |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 10 Feb 2010 10:51 PM |
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I have the same Envision 038.
Our backup consists of a 25kw Generac guardian 1800 rpm generator. It is fueled by propane, a 1000 gal underground tank. I use the propane for a gas grill and the fireplace loglighter, which takes all the aggravation out of lighting a wood fire. I believe the big tank gives us 6-8 weeks of operation if the grid goes down. My thinking is that my area (North Florida) hasn't experienced hurricane force winds since 1964, so we are due, and when our number comes up, it will be cataclysmic. We're at the very end of a skinny little utility line surrounded by big trees. We lose power in any significant wind, and are low on the list to be repowered in event of widespread outages
Propane (LP) is much better than gasoline as a backup fuel. It is stable, doesn't break down if stored for years. It can serve other purposes, such as fueling wall heaters, grills, dryers, water heaters, etc.
Intellistart looks to substantially reduce the size of the generator needed to start a heat pump.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Ona
Basic Member
Posts:189
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| 11 Feb 2010 09:06 AM |
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Thanks for the feedback. We were really trying to keep our fuel sources easy - gasoline is easier to get than propane and we have plenty of wood, but your points on propane are good and appreciated. Wow, a 25kw generator - I thought with the intellistart I might only need 10 - 15 KW. Of course I would have a pro push the numbers before I decided something.
I do go on vacation in the winter and understand that if I'm away, nothing short of an auto start generator with propane would help.
Thanks for all your thoughts! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 11 Feb 2010 09:24 PM |
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Next size down in an 1800 rpm genny was an 18 kw for a few thou less. That would definitely suffice with Intellistart, which I was unaware of when I spec'd my genny.
The 18 appeared to be less efficient than the 25, and I travel, so I want a power outage to be fairly seamless to my family (cooking, laundry, water heating). I'd also like to be able to send a few amps to the old guy living alone next door and to a pair of rentals across the street in the event of a long outage.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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WF_Inc.
New Member
Posts:88
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| 18 Feb 2010 02:56 PM |
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Ona,
We have read through your comments regarding a backup generator for your WaterFurnace. To purchase a generator for your unit can be very costly. However, if you decide to go ahead and install a generator, we would suggest contacting a certified electrician. We do have information to help your electrician in sizing a generator with the IntelliStart.
WaterFurnace International, Inc. |
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DavidYon
New Member
Posts:56
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| 18 Feb 2010 09:33 PM |
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For what it's worth, I put in a 17KW Kohler Propane standby generator. Given that NH has the "HeatSmart" program that trades off a better electric rate for having a 2nd meter that can be remotely shut off during peak demand, I have a somewhat complex arrangement.
The main electric line for the house is on an automatic transfer switch---Kohler's new breaker panel with a built-in switch. Power goes out, you just count to ten and the lights come back on.
The HeatSmart line (powering a 5-ton ClimateMaster and the well pump) is on a manual transfer switch. If the power is out for any length of time I just go down and manually switch over the sub-panel. the 17KW Kohler can start the heat pump no problem, and have plenty of headroom for the rest of the house.
I second the notion that propane is the way to go. Worrying about gasoline stability over the course of multiple years is going to be a serious pain in the ass. I had a small portable gas gennie initially to tide me over during all the service-entrance electrical work, and even a year of that was more than I wanted to deal with. Propane is just set and forget, especially with an auto-transfer switch that automatically exercises the gennie once a week. And as other have pointed out, it can be used for other purposes.
That said, I was switching from propane to geo, so I already had the 500gal underground tank. Getting the gas from the tank to where the gennie was installed, well, that was something of an invasive, expensive operation.
But I figure worst case, I'm good for 4-5 days, in which time I can almost certainly arrange an emergency propane delivery to refill. The more likely case is a week or two.
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Ona
Basic Member
Posts:189
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| 19 Mar 2010 11:29 AM |
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I wanted to update this thread and let you know that someone from WaterFurnace contacted me via the PM portion of this forum.
They provided me with a PDF sheet showing the amps, watts, etc for WF models. The sheet listed these values for both with and without intellistart. It went on to give an example of one of the WF units and what size generator it would need with and without intellistart.
I know there have been different opinions about Manufacturers being on this site, but to me, this was a great service and makes me feel even better about investing in WaterFurnace. Hopefully you all know I am in no way affiliated with the company - but I must give kudos where they are due! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 19 Mar 2010 12:26 PM |
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That sounds like a most useful PDF to have for outage planning and generator sizing.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 19 Mar 2010 03:08 PM |
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Ona, are you permitted to share this information by uploading the document here, or by PM? |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Eric Anderson
Basic Member
Posts:441
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| 19 Mar 2010 03:18 PM |
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I have always made sure I have had a woodstove, and plenty of wood so I can go a month without power. As a kid, we were out of power for 1 month in 1978, since then I have been without power for a week twice more.
A propane stove or outdoor barbeque grill takes care of cooking, woodstove takes care of heating, a propane camping lantern takes care of ocasional lighting. I stock pile enough water to flush the toilets for a few days. Beyond that there is a dug well about 1000 ft from my house that I can refill water from.
I can't afford a generator, but I make sure I have the low tech solutions on hand. A backup heat source and a bit of camping gear can make a huge difference in comfort when the power is out.
Cheers,
Eric
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| Think Energy CT, LLC Comprehensive Home Performance Energy Auditing |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 19 Mar 2010 03:44 PM |
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For people with gas ranges, the cooktop burners still often work, but they may need to be carefully lit. Forget about the oven part since it needs the electronic control panel to operate. We have water in the basement for toilets too. Fortunately, never needed them so far. As soon as I get rid of them, we'll loose power for an extended period, so there they sit. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 19 Mar 2010 03:50 PM |
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Posted By eric anderson on 19 Mar 2010 03:18 PM
a bit of camping gear can make a huge difference in comfort when the power is out
Nothin' beats ultra-lightweight camping gear -- such as a Visa card. My power has never been out long enough to justify the cost of a generator. |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 19 Mar 2010 05:02 PM |
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Florida is renown for lengthy outages following hurricanes. We haven't had hurricane-force winds near Jacksonville since 1964. I expect we are due, and when it comes it will be a corker.
We are also renown for days-long traffic jams when everyone simultaneously decides (too late) to evacuate, so while I appreciate the utility of a Visa card, it does no good if the 3 hour drive to Tallahassee turns into 14 hours, or the storm completely removes highway bridges as happened in Escambia Bay.
I'm at the end of a mile long road served by a single line that wends its way through towering trees. I expect we'd be the first to lose power and among the last to get it back. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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MoviePen
New Member
Posts:16
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| 21 Mar 2010 09:32 PM |
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Having grown up in the Northeast, I stand by a wood stove (or pellet stove) for backup heat during the winter no matter what primary heating source you have. It's completely independent of electricity, and you just have to make sure you have two or three weeks' worth of wood in the shed. I have cooked on my stove (it's rather easy and you don't risk CO problems), and if you stash away a container of JiffyPop you've got the makings of an adventure instead of an ordeal. I also love, love, love the solid warmth the stove puts out, so there's definitely some aesthetics involved for me!
Shelley |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 21 Mar 2010 09:39 PM |
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Been there, done that in the 70s and 80s before moving to FL.
Nothing beats a bone-simple good wood, pellet or coal stove as a backup.
I have a wood stove book from the 1980s that opines at some length that central heating has in fact de-centralized the typical American family; whereas in the past, simple thermodynamics propelled family members together into the same or nearby rooms as the woodstove all winter, efficient central heat allows the family to distribute itself out into rooms on the periphery of often-way-too-big homes, seriously degrading quality time spent together at the end of the day.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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